Reverse scroll envy, or something....

[Rick Lindstrom]

Lately I've really started to appreciate the clean symmetry of A model mandos- F models just look, I dunno, overblown or something to me. My Bridger is getting all of my play time while the Yellowstone sits in its case. At least I think it's in the case- I haven't looked in a while. My MAS involves fantasies about A5L mandolins and their ilk.

Anyone else have this disease, of am I just a strange departure from the norm?

;)

Rick

[Douglas McMullin]

Die hard A or two point fan here. F's look pretty contrived to me, but to each his own.

[JEStanek]

I'm finding myself buying more 2 points and A styles. I still love the 3 point oval hole mandolin. Like sealcove said, to each their own.


Jamie


Plus, I'm kinda cheap.

[MikeEdgerton]

I thought that perhaps this thread was about envy of a Regal Reverse Scroll Mandolin (http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Museum/Mandolin/Regal/RegalPearloid/regalpearloid.html). I was surprised when it wasn't.

[allenhopkins]

Nah, I want a mandolin with two scrolls, one on each side...

[TomTyrrell]

I prefer the asymmetrical look but the mandolins without the full scroll are the ones that I really like. The Weber Gallatin F, Giacomel, Breedlove FF and the Rigels appeal to me much more than the plain As or overused Fs. I guess I just prefer something not like all the rest.

[first string]

You're not alone. I was originally attracted to the mandolin, mostly by the sound, but also partly I admit by the outrageous (but appealing) look of the F style. But as time went on the A really grew on me, and that is what I am opting for now. There's something about the simplicity of it. The fact that there isn't anything about it that isn't totally necessary. While obviously a lot of the world's great mandolins are F style, I don't really see the point of adding all that mass--not to mention expense--for the sake of aesthetics. Now for all you F lovers, there is no need to get defensive. I was once one of you, and the F is certainly a beautiful design. My taste has just evolved in a different direction. And I do sort of wonder...a lot of builders will tell you that they like to remove as much mass as possible, if it isn't structurally or acoustically necessary. And yet we persist in adding big (considering the size of the mandolin) blocks of mahogany or what have you, to the rim of the instrument. Seems a little curious. Then again, luthiers have to build what there is a demand for, and I'm sure most do love the F design. Still...

[JEStanek]

I'm not sure the argument of lower mass on an A holds true. A builder who uses the same materials to make an F and an A will most likely report very little tonal differences between the instruments. You see other threads where people add mass to the headstock (or add a cast tailpiece) and report increased sustain.

You'll also see arguements that the hollow portion of the scroll area adds more internal volume for increased resonance and putative tonal enhancements from the F style. I dunno... Finally, the added mass on an F style vs A style is on the perimeter of the instrument and not where the plates vibrate as freely anyway. I would be very hesitant to say that the added mass of an F vs an A has a negative (or positive) impact on the tone on a well built instrument.

Jamie

[first string]

I'm not sure the argument of lower mass on an A holds true. A builder who uses the same materials to make an F and an A will most likely report very little tonal differences between the instruments. You see other threads where people add mass to the headstock (or add a cast tailpiece) and report increased sustain.

You'll also see arguements that the hollow portion of the scroll area adds more internal volume for increased resonance and putative tonal enhancements from the F style. I dunno... Finally, the added mass on an F style vs A style is on the perimeter of the instrument and not where the plates vibrate as freely anyway. I would be very hesitant to say that the added mass of an F vs an A has a negative (or positive) impact on the tone on a well built instrument.

Jamie

Oh, I'm sure you're right. I've played both, and if there is a difference, it has to be exceedingly minor. And I think you're right, that most builders would agree. So I'm not exactly sure what I'm saying. Only that when you have people agonizing over the weight of waverly tuners, truss rods, etc, it seems curious that the design itself has so much built in non acoustic material.

[Bob Wiegers]

I too love the symmetry of the A and 2-points...I'll be fine if I never own an F. in fact, the "florida" fingerboard extensions drive me nuts for the same reason (and the fact that I'd never play up there).

[Jim MacDaniel]

Likewise, I normally prefer the symmetry of A-styles and symmetrical two-points. The exception: the Rigel Q-95, with its radiused sides and quirky little lap-point, really speaks to me.

[Alex Orr]

Ehhh.... I'm stuck with an A because I can't afford a really nice F, but if I could... I do like that scroll :)

[woodwizard]

I always had a scroll but then for some reason I got the fever for an A and got a A5L. Loved it ... but then the scroll MAS attack overtook me again . I wound up getting rid of the A and getting three F (scroll) models in a row. Now I'm down to just one scroll. Guess when it comes down to the nitty gritty ... I'm a scroll kinda guy. :)

[Tim McTigue]

I actually have a Regal Reverse-scroll mandolin, it's the only mando I've ever owned. It's not all covered in pearloid like the one in the thread referenced above, but it's nice. The finish, of course, is pretty much toast, as it spent decades in an uninsulated attic - hot in summer and cold in winter. I found it in my grandfather's attic in the early 70's, and I've been playing it since then (I took it to a luthier who made it playable). I don't play it often, as I'm mainly a guitarist, but it's been a good companion for many years. A few years ago, the top started sinking, so I put it away for a while, but earlier this year I managed to repair it - had to take the back off and replace a broken brace. It's better than ever now. At some point in the near future, I'll restore the finish with French Polish, to bring it back to its former "glory". If I decide I want an F or an A, I'll make one...

[Ivan Kelsall]

To go along with Jamie's point,that a builder who uses the same materials to build an A style & an F style would report very little difference in tone.I agree totally,but only if the F & A Mandolins were of a similar construction ie. the same style bracing & both had either F or oval sound holes & a similar top/back thickness. I only point this out because both my Webers use exactly the same woods in their construction. However,the A style Beartooth has a thicker top,is X-braced & has an oval sound hole.The Fern has a thinner top,is tone-bar braced with an oval sound hole. The two Mandolins couldn't sound more different,that's why i bought the Beartooth.To go back to the original point of this thread,i think that both styles have their own unique appeal re.their design. I do however really like a really good sounding A style. They seem to thumb their (hypothetical) noses at the 'scrollers' & demand that people take notice. I can't imagine many F styles sounding better or even as good as Tim O'Brien's Nugget,that's a dream instrument,
Saska ;)

[Bertram Henze]

Anyone else have this disease, of am I just a strange departure from the norm?

If it's a disease, there's a full generation of artists and architects had it: in the first half of the 20th century, the Bauhaus simplistic style of houses, furniture and household appliances marked an exit from previous romantic curliness, as in Mies van der Rohe's principle: "make it as simple as possible, no matter what it costs" - still much of their stuff is beautiful in its own way.

We are not alone :)

Bertram

[Jim Garber]

I thought that perhaps this thread was about envy of a Regal Reverse Scroll Mandolin (http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Museum/Mandolin/Regal/RegalPearloid/regalpearloid.html). I was surprised when it wasn't.

Hah, Mike.... I thought the very same thing. Great minds run in the same gutter!!!

[Greenmando]

My last two purchases was two points. I too am considering only A's and two points.
I have coveted three point Gibsons thou.

[JeffD]

I have gone back and forth on this over the years. At first (many, many years ago) I didn't know there was anything but bowlbacks and As, and when I saw my first scroll I thought it kind of fru fru and pointless, like all the wierd, arbitrary and accoustically pointless shapes electric guitars come in. I gradually came to grasp the historical and "classic" nature of the F shape, and for awhile thought they were real real cool.

I once met went on a date wearing my elk hide cowboy boots and a Stetson. When I explained to her that in Fort Worth lots of people wore these things, she replied "yea, but we are not in Texas."

So, while the F design is classic and came out of the art deco period when such non functional curly semi floral design elements were more normal, we don't live there or then.

But they are still classic, aren't they.

I still go back and forth on this.

[Giuliano]

I go back and forth on that as well. I used to have a Performer A, but then I suffered from scroll and oval-hole envy and acquired an F-2. I now have a Yellowstone F, but for some irrational reason, A styles are appealing to me again. Unfortunately, I can only own one mandolin at a time. :crying:
Don

[PaulO]

Hurray for A's!!! My Carver blackface is a champ. I guess it all comes down to what'cha like because it just feels good to play my ax.

If I add another it would most likely be a Brentrup Stealth or one of his F4 types, just because they are as cool and distinctive as mine.

You know it's neat when you get into a circle with an A and watch the faces I get when she barks. Scrolls are beautiful and take a ton of time and talent to get right, but my understated A will always be special to me.

"I'm Paul O and I approve this message"



Paul

[nashvillebill]

When I first started playing mandolin, I thought I had to have a scroll because I thought they looked so cool. However, in my search for tone and playability and my limited budget I came across a '93 Flatiron A5 Artist and traded my Yellowstone for it because the chop and tone just blew me away. I've since grown to appreciate the simplicity of it. Plus, my favorite picker is Tim O'Brien, so if an A model is good enough for Tim, it's good enough for me!

[Payit Forward]

I have gone back and forth on this over the years. At first (many, many years ago) I didn't know there was anything but bowlbacks and As, and when I saw my first scroll I thought it kind of fru fru and pointless, like all the wierd, arbitrary and accoustically pointless shapes electric guitars come in. I gradually came to grasp the historical and "classic" nature of the F shape, and for awhile thought they were real real cool.


I can identify. We don't all come from the same perspective. I played around with the mandolin on my own for decades. (in some kind of weird vacuum apparantly) Believe it or not, I had never even seen an F style mandolin until 2.5 years ago!

That happened to be the same time that I finally started playing seriously, but it was music that inspired me, not the look.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Hah, Mike.... I thought the very same thing. Great minds run in the same gutter!!!

Hmmmm, maybe what Rick is trying to put a name to could be called scroll indifference? ;)

[fatt-dad]

I've sold two f-5-style mandolins and kept my A5-1 Flatiron. They were good f-5 mandolins too, but the Flatiron is much better suited to me.

f-d

[Jim Yates]

My all time favourite mandolin (For appearance) is the Lyon and Healy asymetrical two point. I can't afford one of those, so I'll stick with my Washburn imitation.
I like the looks of both A and F style mandos, but can't justify the extra $$ for the scroll on a mandolin of equal quality. I recall a player whose opinion I trusted (Norman Blake or Sam Bush maybe?) saying in an old Pickin' interview that the best sounding mandolin they ever played was Tut Taylor's Gibson A5.

[JeffD]

My all time favourite mandolin (For appearance) is the Lyon and Healy asymetrical two point.


That design tugs at my heart I have to admit. Especially with that black vulcanized pickguard.

Love at first sight.

[Spencer]

For the "price of a scroll", I bought a nice little A style round hole in addition to my f-hole A style. I'd much rather spend the money on two instruments with different sounds than just one that looks spectacular.

Spencer

[GTG]

That design tugs at my heart I have to admit. Especially with that black vulcanized pickguard.

Love at first sight.

Well, that one also has a 'fru-fru' scroll, just in a different place. Being solid, I'm sure it's a lot simpler to carve, with less importance to tone. No doubt those L&H's are beautiful instruments.

[wannabethile]

yeah, boy. i saved and saved and finally scraped up the money to purchase my first f-style, a weber gallatin. i had never been more proud of the thing!!! and i still love it to death and really do get a lot of compliments on it.
but lately i really really want a nice flatiron a-style mandolin. i cant stop thinking about.

does anyone think that i'd be able to do a fair trade for one of those with the gallatin? or would one of us be getting a less than desirable end of the deal?? i just don't know...

[JEStanek]

That depends on whether it is a Performer or Artist Flatiron, the condition of each and the relative worth to each of you. Finally, does the other person want your Gallatin? I like the Gallatin shape a lot, myself.

Well, I just traded a Breedlove Quartz KF for an Eastman 2point. I never got used to the wider neck on the Breedlove and the Eastmans seem to fit me better. I'm very happy. Thanks to Dennis and the Mandolin Store.

Jamie

[sgarrity]

I'm proud to be scroll free!! :))

I sold my last F5 this summer when I bought my Heiden A5. I really do LOVE the looks and aesthetics of F-style mandolins. But for the price difference I'm more than happy to be playing a nice A5. For the same mandolin in an F-style I would have spent at least TWICE the amount of money I did for the A-style.

Get a really good A-style and don't look back. :mandosmiley:

[Payit Forward]

Well, that one also has a 'fru-fru' scroll, just in a different place. Being solid, I'm sure it's a lot simpler to carve, with less importance to tone. No doubt those L&H's are beautiful instruments.

I hope I don't offend, but...:redface:

I do a bit of wood carving, and I would say the scroll on the L&H peghead is actually just a little bit more work. The carving of a scroll on the top and back of an F style is actually fairly simple as far as carving goes. I think the binding work on a scroll and points is probably the most time consuming part. That and the market appeal of F styles is what makes them cost so much more than A's. *

These things have relatively little (or any) effect on the tone as compared to the wood used and how it's graduated and braced and ultimately set up.


*edit: I should add that cutting the body blocks, forming and attaching the side pieces, making the more elaborate peghead, etc, etc also adds to the cost of the F style.

[JeffD]

Being solid, I'm sure it's a lot simpler to carve, with less importance to tone.


I don't know how simple it may be to carve, but I have it on good authority that it has exactly as much impact on tone as the body scroll of the F style, i.e. absolutely none.

[jim simpson]

I like both!

[Caleb]

I prefer the look of an A-style mandolin over an F-style. An A-style Collings is my dream mando. Someday...

[David Lloyd]

I fell in love with a Flatiron 2 point the first time I saw it. Not going the route of a Flatiron but Jon Mann is building me a two point now. I should have it in a couple of months. I am now playing a Washburn F.
Dave

[Payit Forward]

I fell in love with a Flatiron 2 point the first time I saw it.

Flatiron made a 2 point? I assume it was maybe similar to Weber's Bighorn? Does anyone have a photo of one of these?

[Capt. E]

My Weber Bighorn has the largest body volume of any of Weber's instruments. Larger than any of the F models. The Bighorn is Bruce Weber's pick for a personal mandolin. I love the two point design, beautiful inlay, fully bound body and fretboard. In addition it has great tone, sustain and volume that won't quit. Maybe it says something that you rarely see used ones for sale.

John

[billkilpatrick]

not wild about baroque styling but my oval hole "f" continues to be a source of wonder and amusement, due in large part to its scroll - so frivolous and lacking in purpose; there only because it's there.

point taken about similar material and construction methods producing similar sounding "a" and "f" model mandolins but for looks alone, the scroll is a marvel.

[Matt Hutchinson]

yeah, boy. i saved and saved and finally scraped up the money to purchase my first f-style, a weber gallatin. i had never been more proud of the thing!!! and i still love it to death and really do get a lot of compliments on it.
but lately i really really want a nice flatiron a-style mandolin. i cant stop thinking about.

does anyone think that i'd be able to do a fair trade for one of those with the gallatin? or would one of us be getting a less than desirable end of the deal?? i just don't know...

I recently bought a 1988 Flatiron Artist A for less than a new Gallatin would have cost, although I'm in the UK so Webers are probably more expensive here with import duties etc

Matt