10 String mandolalin?

[Goodin]

Hello - Not sure where this thread belongs so I put it in the general discussions.

So, I play mostly Irish music these days and I tell you it is hard to wrap my head around all the variations of the mandolin family that can be used in Irish music (bouzouki, cittern, mandola, octave mandolin, etc.). My band is interested in playing the song Jolly Beggar in the key of C, which is just brutal on a long scale bouzouki. I would either have to tune down a step which just wont work or capo up to the 10th fret and play in D, which then I might as well be playing a mandolin. So I thought I should get a mandola. I knew the mandola had a low C and was tuned to 5ths of the mandolin but i didn't realize the bottom three strings were the same as the top three of the mandolin so I thought how about a 5 course mandola/mandolin tuned CGDAE. I dont think a 5 course mandolin with such a small body can capture the correct sound of the low C, and I prefer not to have an instrument as big and long scale as a mandola....so I am thinking of a 5 course instrument with body size and scale about between a mandolin and a mandola. It would be like a miniature cittern or I would prefer to call it a mandolalin (I know I am probably not the first to come up with this name).

My question is are there any thoughts of good quality builders that can make such an instrument? I know of Sobell, and Fylde, but I would like suggestions of other builders out there, and maybe some pics of something similar to what I am trying to achive. Thanks!

[JEStanek]

Those 5 course Cittern instruments have been discussed before and they offer unique challenges. When strung CGDAE depending upon the scale and guages the E is either too shrill or the C is too rubbery.

An excellent solution comes from using fanned frets/
Here is an example of (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41513&highlight=fanned) a Gibson 6 string mando-guitar converted to 5 string jazz axe.

Mike Marshall had a 10 stringer one built by Lawrence Smart (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37131&highlight=marshall+smart). The frets make the board look dizzying but according to those who play them you get used to it pretty quick.

There are software packages (online even) that can calculate the fret spacing for you or your builder if you choose to go this way.

Jamie

[PseudoCelt]

My band is interested in playing the song Jolly Beggar in the key of C... I would either have to tune down a step which just wont work or capo up to the 10th fret and play in D, which then I might as well be playing a mandolin. So I thought I should get a mandola.

Any reason why you couldn't capo your bouzouki at the fifth fret to get CGDA (same as mandola tuning) or CGDG, and play as if you're in G?

Patrick

[Goodin]

Any reason why you couldn't capo your bouzouki at the fifth fret to get CGDA (same as mandola tuning) or CGDG, and play as if you're in G?

Patrick

Oh, I meant to mention that but I left it out...I have tried capoing to the 5th fret and that seems to work ok but it doesnt seem to sound right playing melody in G on my zouk, but it sounds ok rhythmically. I tune my zouk GDAD and I try to play everything in D (using a capo) when I can.

Wow the fanning fretboard is something else! It looks quite difficult to make the frets and set it up. So if you build it with the body size and scale length right in between a mandolin/mandola you could achive a balance with the C and E strings, to where they might have a decent voice? (Assuming not fanned frets).

[mandroid]

Kind of the problem halfway in between is only good on the middle 3 strings, the E has to be cranked up tight, and the C floppy.

Fan fret shortens the E scale to allow pitch to be reached at lower tension, and the longer scale for the C, lets the lower string raise in tension a bit.

maybe an instrument stand with both a mandola and a mandolin hanging from it will be as satisfactory..
.

[Doug Hoople]

I have direct experience with fan-frets and with the Brazilian 10-string bandolim.

In the end, the controlling string is the E, which becomes intolerably tight at much more than 14". You can compensate a bit by using lighter gauges. For example, .011" is pretty much the standard gauge for mandolins, but .009" is available, and I think that even .008" might be available, so it's possible to get them to the right tension for longer scale lengths, but your options are starting to get very thin at that point (if you'll pardon the pun).

The thinner gauges wind up incapable of producing big enough sound, and they are more susceptible to breakage. They also have to be manufactured to much higher-quality tolerances, as imperfections in the metal are more likely to be catastrophic when the material gets that thin.

So you have to work the options on the bottom end instead. And there are two ways you can go.

The Brazilian bandolim: The first is to to retain the shorter scale length in order to have a normal E string, and experiment with heavier-gauge strings for the C. On one Brazilian 10-string bandolim I played recently, the scale length was 13.5" That's great for the E string, but then there's the problem with the C string. However, there's no reason the C string has to be floppy (in terms of tension)... simply choose a heavy enough string, and you'll wind up with a perfectly playable tension. The price you'll pay for this is that the tone may "sound floppy," meaning that the whole instrument will be too small to produce a good sound. But it shouldn't "feel floppy" if you've chosen your string gauge properly.

The fan-fret: The second is to set the scale length optimally for both the E string and the C string. Tension-wise, the E string winds up as generally designed, and the C string is long enough to allow for a more appropriate string gauge. So, again, the tension will be right for playability, and you wind up with more balance in the sound, mostly owing to the fact that the C string is not a beefed-up heavy gauge to compensate for the shorter scale length. There are still issues of the sound, and the instrument still needs to be built so that the box projects the sound as desired. Builders are still experiementing with an optimal body shape and size to get the best overall sound.

Mike Marshall's fan-fret 10-string, built by Lawrence Smart, was built with a mandola body. Mike observed that it was more mandola than mandolin. I played it, and confirmed that it sounded like a mandola all the way into the higher registers of the E string! He had it modified, getting the sides narrowed, but hasn't reported back yet on the results of that modification.

I have a fan-fret 10-string, built this summer by my father-in-law. The body is mandolin-sized, chosen as an experiment in response to the exerience with MIke's. It's more consistently mandolin-sounding, but the C string doesn't have the thunder that it should have.

So we're still pursuing the killer 10-string compromise. I don't think anyone has it yet.

If fan frets are a put-off, then the short scale of the Brazilian 10-string bandolim seems to be the only real option, using heavier gauges for the C string to get it to the right tension. You won't get the thunder, but you will get the playability.

If fan frets are intriguing, then you should commission an instrument and join the revolution!

[surfcow]

Goodin,

Gypsy's Music makes a 10-string mandolin. See: http://gypsysmusic.com/10string.html

I own one. The E is not shrill and the C is not sloppy. Playing it has taught me a lot about chord theory.

I believe someone was recently trying to sell one in the classifieds section. Perhaps they are flexible on the price. Search the classifieds for the word "Gypsy".

Good luck.

=brian

[man dough nollij]

SC,

How long is the scale on yours? I'm wondering how he got around the problems. ~:>

[Doug Hoople]

SC,

How long is the scale on yours? I'm wondering how he got around the problems. ~:>

More importantly, what's the gauge on the C string? I'm assuming that the scale length is no more than 14". Otherwise the E string would be too tight.

Also, is the Gypsy a flat-top or arched? So far, flat tops seem to respond better to short-scale C strings.

[Dagger Gordon]

I have such an instrument - a 10 string Sobell mandolin - and it works very well.

Only thing is I tune the bottom string(s) up to D. I mostly use it for a sort of drone, but I do fret it for chords.
I did once record a song where I tuned the bass down to C and it worked OK.

I use a guitar 6th string (53 guage, I think - usually from a D'Addario EJ16 light guage guitar set and I use the other strings on my octave) and it seems to be fine. I've been doing that for over 25 years and the neck hasn't moved at all.

Goodin, I'm not trying to be flippant or cheeky, but I think you should persist with the capo on the fifth fret and see if you can work something out. I can see you might like the effect of playing everything in D, but it is surely a bit limiting, as I think you have discovered. And indeed, why not use a mandolin on this song?

Dagger Gordon

[trevor]

I have had several mandolin/mandolas made. Capek, Rigel, Old Wave and Moon, lots of info on the 10 string/cittern pages on my website. Moon is available.

[PseudoCelt]

If C is a key you might use a lot in your band, another possiblility would be to get a normal 4-course mandola and tune it FCGC/D using mandolin strings. This would give you an instrument that you can play in C as if it is D, then capo at the second fret to give GDAD/GDAE.

It would be cheaper than a 10-string and you would still have the option of returning it to CGDA tuning if you wanted.

Patrick

[Goodin]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

PseudoCelt I like your idea about a mandola tuned FCGC. Would this be the same as having a mandolin tuned down a step?

Dagger - Sobell makes fine instruments! I have been trying to contact him for prices but I get no response. he must be too covered up with orders. Any chance you would post pics of your 10 string mandolin. How do you like it overall? Sound? Volume? Playability? Do you find the 5th course useful or not necessary? I will play around with capoing the 5th fret and playing in G on my Zouk...my zouk is balance to the low end and I am just not crazy of the sound when doing melody on the G/D strings. I need to lighten the gauges I guess.

So those of you that play a 10-string what are your overall thoughts about it? Are you glad you got the extra course or find it unecessary? What about the fatter neck?

[PseudoCelt]

PseudoCelt I like your idea about a mandola tuned FCGC. Would this be the same as having a mandolin tuned down a step?
Yes - FCGC is just a step below GDAD. If the mandola has a scale length of about 16", you can just use mandolin strings to get FCGC/D. It keeps the string gauges and tension about the same as a mandolin, and if you capo up to GDAD/E, the scale length is still similar to a mandolin, so it doesn't feel too cramped. Andy Irvine has been using this tuning for a long time.


Sobell makes fine instruments! I have been trying to contact him for prices but I get no response. he must be too covered up with orders.
Last time I asked him, Stefan Sobell wasn't taking orders for mandolin family instruments. That was at least a year ago though, so things may have changed.

Patrick

[Dagger Gordon]

I must figure out how to post pics. I've never bothered.

If you would like to hear it by itself, you can on Aidan Crossey's 'Pay the reckoning' web-site, where he has a large collection of Celtic mandolin playing. Once you get to the list of artists, you will find a set of jigs and a set of reels by myself. They were recorded in different places. I tend to use the D bass string in the last tune of each set.

http://www.paythereckoning.com/index2.htm

I think Stefan Sobell is very busy and is probably mostly concentrating on guitars.
I have had my 10 string for so long I'm very used to it, but I also have a regular Collings MT.
When I first ordered the Sobell, he had just made one for someone in California which I tried. I liked it and decided to go for that, but I hadn't previously considered one.

Check out Trevor's shop online - lots of interest there.

[groveland]

It would be like a miniature cittern... My question is are there any thoughts of good quality builders that can make such an instrument?


...Capek, Rigel, Old Wave and Moon, lots of info on the 10 string/cittern pages on my website. Moon is available...
I can't speak to the smaller 10-string Moon instruments, but I picked up a long-scale Moon cittern from Trevor, and it works very well. (With upgraded bridge and tailpiece...)


I think you should persist with the capo on the fifth fret and see if you can work something out.
As for the long scale - I don't use a capo much, but the long-scale Moon cittern sounds and feels just dandy capoed at the fifth fret. Seems like the right thing to do. Plus you retain the option of the long scale.


Playing it has taught me a lot about chord theory.

Having that extra course allows a lot of patterns to play out over the 5 courses which just aren't apparent over a mere 4 courses - A whole lot of "Eureka!" moments. :disbelief:

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have an antique Vega cylinderback 205 (rosewood). It is a 10-string. I use a GHS Ultralight Mandolin set of strings (9, 13, 20, 32 + a pair of 44 GHS Irish Bouzouki strings for the C's. I tend not to mix all 5 courses in the same tune - either playing it on the top 4 coiurses as a mandolin or the bottom four courses as a mandola. If I use all 5-courses I tune it CCGGDDAADD and play mandola registers with the top DD strings droning. The scale length is 15".

[Goodin]

Hey Dagger - That is some mighty fine playing. I loved the sound of the powerful low D on Farewell to Connaught. Nice touch. Your Sobell has a wonderful warm and deep tone. Do you play in sessions with it? Is it loud enough over the other instruments?

[Dagger Gordon]

Hi Goodin,

Thanks. As regards playing at sessions, it kinda depends on the instrumention and the general noise in the room, but while it is really quite loud it doesn't really cut through other instruments that well. I think the warm and deep tone (partly due to its oval hole) is not as good as the Collings MT (F holes) for sessions. It somehow blends into the overall sound.

Incidentally, although many people think that oval holes are best for Celtic music, in my experience F holes are much better at cutting through other instruments in sessions, in a similar way to bluegrass mandolins needing to be heard above banjos etc.

On the other hand, for solo playing it is really great. That depth of sound really comes into its own. At Christmas time I sometimes play solo mandolin in a big visitor centre/ store, playing a mix of Celtic music and carols. I play unamplified, and I am told the music rings all around the building.

[Goodin]

I had always thought that oval hole mandolins were the most common for Irish music/sessions but I do prefer playing my Ellis (F-5 model) at sessions over my old Gibson oval hole. The Ellis plays effortlessly and is just a hair louder than the Gibson but I love the hollow woody sound of the old Gibson. To me it seems to fit better with the music than the more shrill sound of the Ellis F. The only problem with the old Gibson is that it is much more difficult to play physically so I prefer the Ellis mostly. If I could find an oval hole mando that matches the volume and playabilty of my Ellis then I might just trade in the old Gibson;)

I learned Sweet Bidy Daly last night. I learned it from The Session and that version is a little bit different than how you play it. They also call it "Health to the Ladies". A great easy tune!

[Dagger Gordon]

I learnt Sweet Biddy Daly from O'Neill's 1001 book a long time ago. Great tune for Strip The Willow.

I used to have an old Gibson A oval hole. It did have a nice sound, but I found it hard to keep in tune and I wasn't enjoying it as much as I felt I should. I traded it in for the Collings, which I play all the time. It's definitely been a good move.

I would like to see the new Collings oval hole mandolins. I bet they're exactly what you're looking for. I wonder how different they sound from the MT.

[Capt. E]

Isn't this why the fifth string on a banjo is strung down the neck? Could you do the same thing with a fifth string on a mandolin?

[allenhopkins]

Isn't this why the fifth string on a banjo is strung down the neck? Could you do the same thing with a fifth string on a mandolin?

But the banjo 5th string is never fretted (well, that's not universally true, but close enough for folk...). It's what's called a "chanterelle," a string that keeps the same pitch, or, in writing music, a "pedal point" -- a note that doesn't change.

You could make a mandolin/mandola hybrid instrument with some strings longer than the others, but then, how would you fret it?

[Eddie Sheehy]

More importantly, what's the gauge on the C string? I'm assuming that the scale length is no more than 14". Otherwise the E string would be too tight.

Also, is the Gypsy a flat-top or arched? So far, flat tops seem to respond better to short-scale C strings.

A comparison:

Vega 205 CB 10-string - 15" scale:
C - 44
G - 32
D - 20
A - 13
E - 09

Gypsy 10-string - 13 7/8" scale

C - 52
G - 38
D - 24
A - 14
E - 10

[Doug Hoople]

A comparison:

Vega 205 CB 10-string - 15" scale:
C - 44
G - 32
D - 20
A - 13
E - 09

Gypsy 10-string - 13 7/8" scale

C - 52
G - 38
D - 24
A - 14
E - 10

Interesting.

What's your impression of these two instruments? How's the E string on the Vega? .09 is pretty light gauge, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't still a little tight. And .44 is a little light, especially at 15 inches. Is it wobbly or satisfying?

Same questions, more or less, on the gypsy. The E string is probably just fine. But .38 strikes me as light for what is essentially a standard mandolin scale length. And .52 is probably just about right for the C string. So I'd imagine that the G string is slightly wobbly or weak, and that the C string is more satisfying.

How do those observations square up with your own direct experience?

[Eddie Sheehy]

The E is a little tight on the Vega. The 44's are VERY satisfying. The extra-size body coupled with the Cylinder-Back has a BIG deep sound - espicially since I mostly play Mandola registers. I'm afraid I don't have a Gypsy 10-string - I got the gauges from Walt so I could compare them to the Vega. There's an earlier post here from someone who has a Gypsy, perhaps he can comment?

[Woody Turner]

Check out Pete Langdell's Web site: http://www.rigelinstruments.com/custom.shtml
Although Rigel, the company he founded, ceased official operations a couple of years ago, Pete still takes custom orders. As Trevor can tell you, he makes a 10 string with a ~16" scale. I ordered a 17"-scale mandola from Pete last year and have found it to be well balanced throughout its range.