devaluing of Gibson F9s

[bgjunkie]

I have noticed a couple of 2008 F9s in the classifieds lately for under $2300.
With the F9 retailing at $3200 I just don't understand how people can sell this low.

I have an 2007 F9 that I would like to sell in order to buy a mandolin with a wider neck but I can't take that big a loss on what I gave for it and still have enough left to even buy another good mandolin.

F9s are great mandolins and I love the tone of mine. Do people think so little of them that they have to be given away?

Just a little frustrated that the joy of the mandolin has to cost so darn much.

Venting complete....

[JGWoods]

What do you think yours is worth?
and why?

[Chris Biorkman]

I don't think that $2,300 is that low for an F-9. You can buy them brand new for $2,800, so a $500 hit seems pretty reasonable to me. An used F-5G can be had for around $3,000.

When I first came back to mandolin after playing guitar for a while, I was shocked at how expensive they were. I would have never considered paying more than $2,000 for a guitar, but here a few years later I sit with a depleted saving account and an Ellis and wonder what happened. :)

[AlanN]

Read a newspaper. Mandolins are not exempt, as much as we'd like to think they are.

[Chris Biorkman]

Read a newspaper. Mandolins are not exempt, as much as we'd like to think they are.

Agreed. Although I have noticed a greater impact on the prices of higher end instruments than models like the F-9.

[PaulD]

Could it simply be that people don't have the discretionary income right now for instruments? Or are other mandos holding their value? My F9 gets compliments (the instrument, not the player) all the time for having "that Gibson sound." It's a really decent instrument, especially for the money.

The older plain, matte finish F-9s had a MSRP of about $3200 but several of the discount retailers used to have them regularly for about $2500. It looks like the same retailers now list them for $2800 to $3200. I haven't looked at what they're going for, but mine is pre-sunburst and I've figured it would only be worth around $2000 if I were to try to sell it... but that's no problem because it's not going anywhere soon!

EDIT: Looks like a number of folks weighed in since I started typing... sorry to repeat what's been said.

Paul

[bgjunkie]

I guess I didn't expect $500 of depreciation in a year (or less in the case of the 2008s for sale).

I wouldn't even be thinking about selling if I wasn't experiencing cramping in my left hand due to the neck size/shape. I play my Epiphone MM30 all the time and do not have the same discomfort, which I believe is due to the more U shaped neck and the 1 3/16" width.

[JEStanek]

Most folks expect a 20-30% hit on resale price. From 2800 - 2300 is an 18% loss. Cars loose 30% as soon as you pay for it and take it off the lot (even more if you consider the financing fees and interest if you buy new with a loan). The Ricky Skaggs DMM sold new for $25K and sell used for $16 is a 36% hit. An Eastman 800 series sells new for $1650 and sells privately used for $900 that's almost 44% hit.

That's why we tell people to buy used! If your mandolin is worth more to you than what it will competitively sell for on the market then you need to keep it. Used instruments don't keep warrantees (those unsigned warrantee cards don't mean anything- you need the reciept for almost all of those to be honored). That fact alone is worth a good hit in value.

On an unrelated note, look at the Breedlove FF for a wider necked instrument that gets good reviews for sound. It won't have the Gibson tone but it won't break the bank either.

Jamie

[sgarrity]

Retail price and street price are two different things. No one that has done their homework pays retail for an instrument. If $2800 is the going street price for a new F9, then used ones will sell for about 80% of that new street price. So a used one would be around $2240. Sounds like they are selling right where they should be.

If you paid closer to the retail price of $3200, that doesn't mean yours is worth any more than about 80% of the going street price.

[june39]

If I'm not mistaken, the Gibson warranty disappears for the new owner. That has to to be considered as well in the used price.

Doug McCash

[bgjunkie]

If I could just win the lottery this would be a moot point.

Maybe I should look into posting as a trade.

[AlanN]

The Ricky Skaggs DMM sold new for $25K and sell used for $16 is a 36% hit. An Eastman 800 series sells new for $1650 and sells privately used for $900 that's almost 44% hit.

And just to continue the fun, much has to do with where on the curve one sits/sat as a buyer:

Gilchrist Model 5 mandolins sold new (in 1995) for $5K, sell used for $25K.
Loar F-5 mandolins sold new (in 1923) for $250, sell used for...

I know, I know, a different time/place/world :mandosmiley:

[Jim Broyles]

Agreed. Although I have noticed a greater impact on the prices of higher end instruments than models like the F-9.

Still, any item is only worth what someone will pay for it. Apparently, used F9s are worth $2300. I have never paid more than $750 for any instrument, and that was a Gibson Les Paul Custom, in 1970. Wish I still had that one. :(

[MikeEdgerton]

The last F9 listed had a broken headstock scroll that had been repaired.

With that said you can't assume that anything you buy, mandolin or not, will go up in value. Sometimes it takes years and sometimes it never happens. There is a reason there is a market for used cars and mandolins.

My suggestion, just play it and don't get crazy about the value or it's pristine state. It's a tool to be used.

[JimRichter]

That's why you should never buy new unless 1) you really have to own THAT instrument 2) you're buying a custom instrument made exactly to your preferences, or 3) you're buying from a respected luthier and you know the instrument will retain its value (if not increase).

There are lots of F9s out there. As there are Collings MTs, Weber whatevers, etc. etc. It's hard to compete when resale time comes (especially when the retailer buy in is significantly lower than the retail you paid, which means you have to sell lower than that dealer cost).

This comes from someone who has lost money in instruments, but has since never made that mistake again. When you get in the habit of "catch and release" (as Ted E. phrased it), you have to learn to maximize your return.

[GRW3]

You're lucky it's a mandolin. The standard for guitars is 50% of MSRP (original not current) for 'like new'. Hope you didn't buy that F9 in lieu of something you liked better because the dealer told you "Gibsons hold their value." They do, the intrinsic value of a used F9 seems to be about $2300.

[jimbob]

New price vs. used price....age old topic of discussion. First, since I can remember, the going rate on new musical instruments has usually been about 60% of MSRP. I have purchased pianos, band instruments for my kids, guitars, banjos and even mandolins in this range. A used F9 selling for $ 2300 with new MSRP @ +/- $ 3200 sounds about right. ( I'm not sure what MSRP is on a new F9) I realize that the 60% deal won't apply to private luthiers, of course, but if you are prepared to shop just a little bit, I think you will find it to be true. I think the market has softened quite a bit on all sorts of toys. Everything from mandolins to motorhomes....it's a buyers market !

[bgjunkie]

Unfortunately I have to start on the sellers end of the market before I can get to the buyer part.

[ilovemyF9]

Please, if I may suggest. I own an F-9 and a Weber Y2K. I see that someone is selling a 2000 Y2K on this web site. It has a wider fret board than the F-9 and it has great volume with a nice tone as well. It keeps up with the rest of the Irish guys I play Celtic music with and at $500 it is a very good price. Just my 2 cents worth; good luck to you and I sense that you really do not want to part with the Gibbo, (I can dig that!) If you can shell out 500 clams, than you will have the best of both worlds.....

[laddy jota]

Have you checked the resale price of a Hummer lately? I heard one economist predict that homes will drop another 40% in value before turning around. Mandolins have been way overpriced for years. We might be entering a good period to build our mandolin collections (if we have any money).

[Nick Triesch]

It's the market. When homes go down, everything else goes down. Nick

[MikeEdgerton]

OK folks, we are venturing into dangerous territory here and getting close to violating the posting guidelines. Let's stay with mandolins.

[mario515]

Is it my imagination but weren't F9's priced at around $1800 about 5 0r 6 years ago?

[Scotti Adams]

A buddy of mine just bought a used F-9 for $800..yes..thats right...$800. I played on it last weekend...fairly nice mando..esp. for that price...and it was bought from a very reputable dealer.

[MikeEdgerton]

I would buy any F9 I found for $800.00

[Santiago]

I love and respect Gibson as the maker of many fine mandolins. The F9 was designed to be stripped down -- "nothin' special" version with the important Gibson sound. And I know It doesn't matter whether you are talking Gibson or General Motors, or homes: The highest value retention comes from the high-end market. Frankly, Eastmans have better wood and appointments for a lot less money. Tone is more subjective, but the used market isn't.

[Ken Olmstead]

I think $2000-2300 is about the going price that I have seen these go for used over the last couple years. Actually $2300 is on the higher side of that range. I think they are a fabulous mandolin for the money but if you buy new then you have to get your money back in enjoyment. I get a lot more milage out of my Weber Fern than I do my car! If I loose a couple thousand bucks if I sell it, I got far more than that in utility. My opinion.

[bgjunkie]

That's the thing, I don't enjoy playing my F9 as much as I should. I love the tone, that's not the thing, it is the discomfort I feel playing it. I just had a good setup done on it to make sure the issue wasn't setup related and it wasn't. Unfortunately the mandolins that I have played lately that have necks that I find comfortable are way out of my price range.

[TomTyrrell]

For most used instruments with no problems I figure about 60% of the MSRP. With a few exceptions if you can get more than that you are doing well. Even limited editions are subject to this hit. The only exceptions are those situations where new ones aren't available or the price for a new one has increased significantly, AND used ones are seldom seen AND there are quite a few people looking for one.

That good old law of supply and demand still works in the used musical instrument market.

[Ken Olmstead]

BGJ - thats why I had the board radiused and larger frets installed on the one I had. It played like melted butter when it was done! Like an idiot, I sold this mandolin and am now on a quest to get it back. I know where it is and I am working on it! I have reversed the selling of my KM1000 that I had and this one is next I hope. Anyway, those upgrades will cost roughly $500ish and you certainly won't get it back if you decide to sell it later.

You probably have seen this but here is my pimped out F9 thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39224

If you like the sound, it could be worth making it your own. Or swallow the loss and move on. You may loose some money buy those are pretty liquid.

[Weagle]

Like Tom Tyrrell stated used is 60% or less of original MSRP. There is no reason to buy new. Get a decent used instrument then you can spend some on upgrades and you want have that "why did I spend this money feeling."

Just a random thought.

Weagle

[Paul Kotapish]

No doubt the market has come down a bit and will probably come down a bit more before bouncing back, but that isn't the only possible explanation.

I saw a number of F-9s selling for just shy of $2,000 not too many years back, and I think there were some dealers who were shaving their MSRP way down to approach that magic price break before Gibson changed their dealer tactics. If the original owners of those F-9s purchased them in that attractive price range, the current selling prices would not necessarily represent a loss.

By way of example, many years ago a dealer offered me a spectacular deal on a great guitar. I didn't really need it, but it was too good a deal to pass up. He needed the cash, so I bought it for way under MSRP. It was a wonderful instrument, but not for me. I kept it for eight years or so and then sold it when someone offered to buy it from me for a bit more than I paid for it--about right to compensate for changes in the dollar. The buyer was delighted because it was still a spectacular deal, and I didn't lose a penny on the transaction, despite the fact that the instrument was in my possession for those eight years.

Something equivalent could be happening with those F-9s.

[Mike Bromley]

I guess I didn't expect $500 of depreciation in a year (or less in the case of the 2008s for sale).

I wouldn't even be thinking about selling if I wasn't experiencing cramping in my left hand due to the neck size/shape. I play my Epiphone MM30 all the time and do not have the same discomfort, which I believe is due to the more U shaped neck and the 1 3/16" width.

That width makes a big difference in that it opens the thumb-first-knuckle-of-the-1st-finger distance to a more physically efficient position...with the amazing reduction of cramps, and the sudden increase in stamina, because you don't have to fold your hand so much.

I love my F9, it's a lovely funky-sounding woody mandolin. But after Champ got home from Lawrence KS, I was NOT regretting putting Willy away. 1 1/4" is, well, exquisitely comfy. :grin:

[bgjunkie]

Ken - I wish I knew if those mods would make the difference I need, but I can't see dropping $500 or so to find out. I found a used Lebeda A that I like (but don't want to rush into) and if I could get $2300 for my F9 I could buy the Lebeda and have enough left over to pick up a Trinity College octave or bozouki.

[man dough nollij]

BGJ,

You might try posting an ad to trade it in the classifieds. Someone out there might have a great mando that they just can't play because they can't stand the wide neck.

I just ordered a Recording King resonator mando from Elderly, and had to send it back because the neck was so wide it was crazy. Something like 1.5".

The sagging market is a bummer for anyone trying to sell, but the guy who owns your dream wide-neck and wants a skinnier one is in the same boat.

Just a thought.

:mandosmiley:

[PaulD]

Is it my imagination but weren't F9's priced at around $1800 about 5 0r 6 years ago?
When I bought mine (I lose track, but it was about 5 years ago) it was when Guitar Center was closing out their Gibson mandos. There was a big thread on it here on the 'Cafe... they were selling for between $1600 and about $2000 for an F9. Most stores, it seems, had one A9 and one F9 in stock. At the time MF and some of the other discounters were selling the F9 for around $2500 and the MSRP was around $3000 or $3200. I got mine for $1600 so I could probably still make a profit if I were of a mind to sell it, but I don't have any intention of doing that. I don't know what I would get in that price range that would be as good an instrument. If I were having the hand cramp problems, though, it wouldn't be worth keeping... you're not going to get any enjoyment out of it if it's killing you to play it.

[Ken Olmstead]

Ken - I wish I knew if those mods would make the difference I need, but I can't see dropping $500 or so to find out. I found a used Lebeda A that I like (but don't want to rush into) and if I could get $2300 for my F9 I could buy the Lebeda and have enough left over to pick up a Trinity College octave or bozouki.


I'm thinking the work is actually in the $300 range. I do understand not wanting to spend money just to find out. It made all the difference in the world on mine and I sold it anyway so....:confused:

[Greenmando]

I only paid $1500 new for my F9, course it was in our great GC closeout sale. That was 1/2 off on new sales!
Bought my A9 here in the cafe for $800 used.

[northfolk]

I think it is simply, supply and demand? :mandosmiley:

[mandroid]

Consider refining the shape of the neck to resemble the ones you like,
by having it shaved down to that profile,
Gibson authorized service guy/gal doing the work, should keep it in warranty ..

[bgjunkie]

They can reshape the neck, but they can't make it wider.

[mandroid]

why not ? put on wider fretboard , its only wood..

maybe a new housing bubble will give some a sense of wealth again?
:popcorn:

[JEStanek]

I think you had it right earlier in post 34 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showpost.php?p=585391&postcount=34). Sell the Gibson for as close to $2300 as you can get and use the funds to get the Labeda that fits you. Worry about the Trinity College later if necessary. Why hang on to it if it doesn't work for you...

Jamie

[bgjunkie]

I think I am just trying to talk myself into it. I know it is what I want to do, I am just having trouble with the execution of the plan. The depreciation hit is hard to overcome.

[JEStanek]

Think of it as a $500 rental for a good year and valuable experience. That's reasonable. Good luck and I hope the next one fits you perfectly.

Jamie

[Moldrush]

Not that it will make a difference but Gibson did just bump the price of the F and A 9's up a few hundred I can't remember the exact list but the M.A.P. or street price is now what the old list so basically if you bought a new F9 from a dealer who followed the contractual agreement with gibson they would not be able to sell it less than 3300.

[bgjunkie]

That's a good way to think of Jamie. When I sold my boat that is exactly the thought I had. So $500 divided by the 14 months I've owned it works out to just over $35 a month, which is not an unreasonable rental fee for a quality mandolin.

[Ken Olmstead]

That's a good way to think of Jamie. When I sold my boat that is exactly the thought I had. So $500 divided by the 14 months I've owned it works out to just over $35 a month, which is not an unreasonable rental fee for a quality mandolin.

:):):)

That is the way to look at it as that is absolutely true! I alluded to that earlier but Jamie is far more articulate than I!! :grin:

[man dough nollij]

This is very helpful. I feel better now that I can rationali.. er, I mean explain spending money on a new mandolin.

Let's see... if I pay $235,872 for a Loar, play it twelve hours a day, seven days a week until my 100th birthday... That works out to exactly a dollar an hour. I can rent a Loar for a dollar an hour?! Sign me up!

[musicofanatic]

You didn't really believe that GC salesman who told you "this will be a valuable collector's item someday", did you? That inst devalued as you walked out the door of the shop. I would mostly never buy a new inst, because of that very fact. Live and learn.

[Rob Powell]

I think I am just trying to talk myself into it. I know it is what I want to do, I am just having trouble with the execution of the plan. The depreciation hit is hard to overcome.

At the price point for selling your F9, you could probably trade it for a pretty nice mandolin with a wider nut. I think pretty much all the Breedloves come with a wider nut and I know Weber makes them with a wider nut.

Why don't you call a few of the cafe supporters like The Mandolin Store or Elderly? Or one of our regulars like Mandomutt (Kevin Douglas) or Stephen Perry (Gianna Violins) or Mandolin World HQ (Charles Johnson)? See what they could do for you. You might be surprised or you might decide to hold on to it. Either way, it's worth a shot.

At this point you need to stop thinking about the exact dollar figure toward a new mandolin and think of what you could trade it for in mandolin terms. Instead of $2300 think even trade for a used Weber or Collings or 90% of a new <fill in the blank>...

I say figure out what it is you really want, talk to someone who has it and see what you need to do to make that happen.

Easy for me to say sittin' here behind my computer :))

I really do feel your pain though. I watch ebay, the classifieds, craigslist..etc.. for a good deal on another mando and I have to keep reminding myself that one of the things I love about my Yellowstone is the wider nut so it narrows the field.

Good luck whatever you decide!

[MikeEdgerton]

This could be more bad news or more good news if someone is looking for one (http://folk-instruments.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=517226X).

[Kevin K]

Seems like a good price, wonder what's is the scratch and dent about those???

[Scotti Adams]

A buddy of mine just bought a used F-9 for $800..yes..thats right...$800. I played on it last weekend...fairly nice mando..esp. for that price...and it was bought from a very reputable dealer.

...and he just flipped it today for $1800..not a bad profit. It was a 2006 model.

[Rob Powell]

...and he just flipped it today for $1800..not a bad profit. It was a 2006 model.


So...what kind of scoop does he have on the dealer that he got it for $800:disbelief: Very cool that he made a decent profit....it was probably worth the $1800 he got for it to begin with ....

[bgjunkie]

Thanks for the tip Rob. I haven't really thought about calling around to see what I do on a trade. I guess one reason I haven't is that I would want to play the mandolin I was trading for to make sure that it was a good fit. I may still call around to see what I can come up with.

[bassthumper]

check with the guys at THE MANDOLIN STORE....great to deal with....the GIBSON F-9 was on my short list when i came across the WEBER SE at the mando store....with all due respect to GIBSON i think this is an option others should consider...i love mine and to date it more than holds it's own with F-9's it's been next to. as for resale/flipping value the idea of letting this puppy go is not a thought i entertain.the WEBER is soulful and old timey sounding. for that agressive bluegrass sound the COLLINGS MF takes care of that....and for the money there are several COLLINGS A's that will hold their own in any jam...i'm looking forward to hearing their new oval-A...and how it compares to the WEBER vintage oval -a...an impresswive instrument...A-A-AHHHHHHHH....so many great mandolins...so few paychecks..hope you find the mando-companion you seek

[DryBones]

check with the guys at THE MANDOLIN STORE....great to deal with....the GIBSON F-9 was on my short list when i came across the WEBER SE at the mando store....with all due respect to GIBSON i think this is an option others should consider...i love mine and to date it more than holds it's own with F-9's it's been next to. as for resale/flipping value the idea of letting this puppy go is not a thought i entertain.the WEBER is soulful and old timey sounding. for that agressive bluegrass sound the COLLINGS MF takes care of that....and for the money there are several COLLINGS A's that will hold their own in any jam...i'm looking forward to hearing their new oval-A...and how it compares to the WEBER vintage oval -a...an impresswive instrument...A-A-AHHHHHHHH....so many great mandolins...so few paychecks..hope you find the mando-companion you seek

STOP,STOP,STOP! I keep looking at that lefty Weber SE at The Mandolin Store but just can't pull the trigger right now! :crying:

BTW, any video or soundclips of yours?

[woodwizard]

A lesson can be learned here.
1) Never pay full list price.
2) Buy used when possible for a better price.
3) Trade ... when ever possible.

#3) has worked the best for me because the more you trade ...it seems the less you have in it ... which means ... less for more.

I traded a HD35 for a new F9 '04 w/dot inlays ...which meant I only had $1500 in it. The guy I got it from traded curly maple wood to Gibson for it. We were both pretty happy because he had the guitar sold for quite a profit. I've sense traded the F9 & another Gibson mandolin for the new Goldrush I have now. Works for me when I can manage a trade.

[gibson mandoman]

What a deal! $800 for a Gibson F-9 mandolin! I sold a 2006 Gibson F-9 recently for a $300 profit. Great sounding mandolin, but I found a Carlson signed Gibson that sounds better than the F-9! Worked out for the best!