Gibson F 5L Fern: pick guard or no pick guard

[19930526]

I am considering the purchase of a new Gibson F 5L Fern. I am used to playing a mandolin without the pick guard and am not sure how much of an adjustment it would be for me to play with the pick guard. I don't know if Gibson would even make one without a pick guard. Any feedback on the pros and cons of a pick guard?
I would also like to hear from owners of these instruments as to the overall quality of their instrument, action height when received, did tailpiece cover fit properly and stay on good or did it rattle and/or have to be adjusted (I have had trouble with these type of tailpieces in the past). I would also like to get feedback about whether or not the current mandolins being produced by Gibson are as good as those that were manufactured under Charlie Deerington's watch.

Any information, feedback and advice on Gibson F 5L Fern Mandolins and Gibson Mandolin quality in general would be appreciated.

[stoney]

I've had my Dave Harvey signed Fern for a little over a month and am VERY happy with it. The cosmetics are not as good as my Collings MFV Deluxe, but I didn't expect them to be. It is still a very beautifully crafted instrument. I did some minor adjustments to bridge height (and will likely fiddle with it some more) but the playability and sound are exactly what I hoped for--loud and woody. No problems with the tailpiece cover. Tuners were a bit stiff, but a little oil with each string change will break them in nicely. I have had some minor problems adjusting to the fingerboard extension (pick click) but believe I'll give it a year or so before I decide if I want to scoop it. I'm already getting used to it. The pick guard hasn't been a problem at all--and I think it looks cool and will serve to protect the instrument a bit more. Bottom line, the sound knocks me out. BTW, they come with Bill Monroe strings. I'd never used them before, but I like them. If you purchase from a reputable dealer and or have a chance to play it first, you'll never regret the purchase. I had to get my over the net and got a great deal.

[19930526]

Thank you for the response, Stoney. Did you raise or lower the bridge? After doing so, was your intonation not off a bit?

[f5loar]

My thoughts on pickguards on any Gibson mandolin is they should all come with one and then if you prefer to take it off then you can with no problem.
By having it to put back on should you sell it the next buyer may want it on there and makes for a faster sell IMO. Never could understand Gibson's rational about no pickguards on some signature models. While Sam Bush removed his from his '37 it did come with one. While Monroe removed his it did come with one. The holes ain't that bad. The holes also indicate you have the real deal that was complete when you got it. To me the F5 just looks wrong without it. It was put there for a reason.

[Bernie Daniel]

I have a 2002 F-5 Fern -- 2002 Danny Roberts signed it -- its a GREAT axe -- so loud and woody. I used to use a tone enhancer but took it off as I like to feel the power of the big strings on the maple back.

I expect there are mandolins better than the Fern I have -- but I'll bet they are few and far between - because logically I doubt you could improve too much on this one.

One way you can tell how good your mandolin is by your first impression when you pick up someone else's. For several years I played a 1972 F12 -- just a beautiful mandolin and I loved it -- but whenever I would play someone else's mando (like an F-5G or a Collings MF) it's tone/volume would surprise me -- much louder than mine.

Not anymore -- now that I have the Fern most mandolins that I pickup now sould like of muted --there is just a difference. Even really expensive mandolins that I've had a chance to pick in the last several years like a couple of Gilchrists, a Kimble, a Duff, and a Monteleone Grand Artist don't blow me away anymore -- and they are certainly great mandolins.

I do not mind the pickguard at all -- it looks great and is no problem for playing. I scalloped the fingerboard extension at fret 24 and have no regrets it is much easier to play now -- no clicks.

I set my action at 0.065 inches (12th fret) on the G-string and 0.075 inchs on the E string (yes higher on the treble side). Its just the way I like it that's all.

So what I'm saying is I do not think you will be disappointed with a Gibson Fern. I'd say try first if you can but I'll be willing to bet if you do you'll buy it.

Good luck on purchasing your Gibson. But the way there is nothing wrong with the F5-G's and F-9's -- they get the job done just as well.

[19930526]

Thanks for the information, Bernie. Do you happen to remember what the action height was set at when you got the mandolin? I am hoping to not have to change the action.

[Bernie Daniel]

Sorry no idea -- but the information would probably not do you much good anyway -- I doubt they come with any specific action set -- probably within some range of settings maybe.

But I think those settings I gave are pretty typical and about where most folks would set them.

I recommend that you consider buying a string action guage from StewMac -- these are just wonderful for measuring and setting your action.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Measuring_tools/String_Action_Gauge.html

[Steve Ostrander]

Definetly get it with the pick guard and then remove it if you don't like it. Save it for resale value.

[John Hill]

I don't use a pickguard but I love the F-5L look with the pickguard and would keep it on unless it just totally messed up my picking technique. It can always be removed and put back on.

[Steven Stone]

I replaced the stock PG on my Fern with the smaller abbreviated floating guard that was originally used on the Wayne Benson Model.

I also had it set slightly below the plane of the fretboard.

Just a thought...

[stoney]

I lowered the bridge from 7 8ths to 6 8ths. It had no impact on the intonation at the 12th fret. I will likely raise it a bit at some point just to tinker with it depending on what sound I'm after. I'm thinking some of the old timers may have cranked up the bridge to avoid the pick click on the finger board extension as well as for the purported increase in volume-- just an assumption. I also think the smaller fret size of the Fern and flat fingerboard make for easier playability--for me. I know that can be a very personal thing, but I've played extensively on Collings and Stivers with larger frets and radiused boards and while I certainly felt the difference--it did not become a preference. The smaller frets and flatter board seem to help slides and faster movement and some four finger chording seems cleaner---but that's just my take. I know others that won't own a mando without the larger frets or radiused board. I rate instruments in four areas in this order: sound, playability (no boney necks or sharp frets, etc..), volume, and cosmetics. I've never hefted a better mandolin than the Fern (to include Gilchrists, Collings, etc.)for the first three. And four (cosmetics) ain't enough behind to pay the additional $15,000.00 or so. I would be quick to add that the very top end instruments have great subtilty and balance and are certainly superior instruments in some ways...BUTTTT, if you just want a very good instrument with THE standard bluegrass tone and volume and THE one with all the history attached to it (which makes for endless reads and conversations), AND if you can't afford the Gil or Loar, you will never regret a Fern. That's my story and I'm sticking to it

[Bernie Daniel]

Stoney: BUTTTT, if you just want a very good instrument with THE standard bluegrass tone and volume and THE one with all the history attached to it (which makes for endless reads and conversations), AND if you can't afford the Gil or Loar, you will never regret a Fern. That's my story and I'm sticking to it

Well stated and that is my position as well -- the Gibson F-5 Fern is the whole package -- it looks a lot like a Loar, it sounds outstanding, plays as easily as anything out there, has the desired tradition (the name), and is on the low end of the price range for a top-of-the-line mandolin -- which it clearly is. Its just a great deal.

In fact, in ALL of mandolin-dome the only two instruments I still really CRAVE and the ONLY ones I would even think of owning in lieu of the Fern are either a Sam Bush series F-5 or a Gibson DMM.

[Mikey G]

I had a 2001 F-5L and I liked the tobacco color of the finish on it more than I like the current reddish tint on the Ferns. Those older Ferns looked more like the current Master Models.

[Bernie Daniel]

Mikey G: I had a 2001 F-5L and I liked the tobacco color of the finish on it more than I like the current reddish tint on the Ferns. Those older Ferns looked more like the current Master Models.

I did not realize that 2002 was the first year of the F-5 Fern.

When did the F-5L start? 1978? or early 1980's?

[jim_n_virginia]

I have never used a pickguard on any of the mandolins I've ever owned. I didn't have one on my last mandolin that I mainly used a 1990 F-5L Fern and when I wanted to sell it and get a newer Fern (2002 Danny Roberts) I had to clean a LOT of grime off the front and use a lot of elbow grease to get it back looking decent.

And when I play I barely brush the top of the lower bout, I play with an open hand and my fingertips barely (and I mean barely!) brush the top but it was enough leave a lot of gunk and grime that didn't come off easy. Also you could see where had I played the mandolin a lot longer I may have marred the finish. Fortunately is just needed cleaning and polishing with Meguires.

So I have a newer Fern now and I decided to leave the pickguard on. Felt a little weird to me at first but after a few months I hardly know it's there. I am going to leave it on to protect the top because I probably will sell it one day.
But I love the sound and playability of this mandolin and it would take a pretty awesome MM or DMM to get me to switch.
:mandosmiley:

[tin ben dur]

Pickguards just get in the way.

[Bernie Daniel]

tin ben dur: Pickguards just get in the way.

What do they get in the way of?

[f5loar]

I use to think there was something to the pickguard getting in the way until Monroe had his Loars being put back together from some 6 months and he used the 1978 F5L Gibson gave him with the pickguard on it. He didn't have to take it off during those 6 months and if you go back and listen to live recordings of this period it's still Monroe. I believe the first reason the early guys like Monroe,Taylor,Osborne took them off was because they felt it dampened the sound a bit and without it they could get more power to attack those prewar Mastertones and Herringbones. Remember the old days didn't have the PA system quality of later years. Working out of one mic on a stage left you to hearing the entire band on stage with no monitor.
I've not done an exact count but I bet more pros today leave the pickguard on then off.

[mandolinlee]

HI 19930526:
I bought a Montana made F5L, signed by Steve Carlson, from Mandolin Brothers in 1986. It was 22 years old last month. Played it everyday the first 5-10 years, still play it 3-5 days a week. Still love it, just getting older. Picked this one from three after playing and listening to all 3. Problems? Only two. Playing it with my group two days after buying it, the ebony end pin came out of it's hole and I caught the Mandolin before it hit the floor. I fixed that problem by making an ebony button with a leather caul on it and running a round shoe string thru the pinhole and thru an ebony piece that acts as a toggle thru the hole in my strap. Second problem happened within the next week, the little gold cap nut that holds the pickguard to it's bracket fell off and got lost. A quick call to Gibson got a replacement.
The band I play in has had from 4 to 9 players over the years. We've been together over 30 years and for most of that I was the only lead mandolin player. The F5L holds it's own against currently; 2 banjoes, 2 guitars and a bass viol. One night after a practice/jam sesssion my wife said, "You play too loud."
It's been back to Gibson twice for re-fret jobs, most recently July 2007. When I picked it up last July, the repairman played it and commented that it had a great voice!
If you find the F5L (currently the Fern Model) that turns you on, I'll bet you will be happy with it. I know I am with mine.
Good luck in your search.
Lee

[Richard Walz]

I have a Carlson signed F5-L that is outstanding (tonally and in workmanship). My question is whatever happened to Mr. Carlson?

[lenf12]

The F-5 Ferns come with a pickguard (actually it's a finger rest). I have finger rests on all of my mandos and find it difficult to play without one as it does give you a depth guage of sorts. They're especially useful if you play a lot of tremolo. They do help protect the top from scratches and therefore help to preserve the value of the instrument at re-sale time. I likely would not buy a mandolin without one if it had considerable wear and tear in that area.

Try it with the finger rest on for a while. As stated earlier, if you don't like it, you can always take it off and store it in the case.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[GTison]

Personally , I think a better question to ask is how wide is the neck. Action at the 12 fret is so easily variable with the adjustment wheels on the bridge it just seems like a newbie question. The Width of the neck at the nut varies on these models at least a 1/16 maybe even a 1/4". If you have big fingers or are used to playing a fatter neck, you could have issues with this.

I have a November 2002 Fern, The "final version of the current graduations and other changes made to the older pre Derrington inspired model F5Ls. I bought it new. The finger rest took a little bit of getting used to and I used to remove it on occasion. I never take it off anymore. If I want to let some finger dragger play it a bit I don't have to worry too much. They do dampen the sound PROJECTED, but not the sound you hear (in my opinion). I think I hear the mandolin better with it on. Besides my band says I'm too loud anyway (read powerful woof from the Fern). The finger rest easy to remove less than 2 minutes.
Overall quality? Excellent. Mine has a few quirks in the shape of the scroll and the binding in the waist of the mandolin. I thought my frets were too low from the beginning. I refretted it within 2 years. Sound quality is WHY I purchased it. I played several Ferns (all within 2 days so I could remember) and chose this one because of sound and neck feel, NOT looks. Though I considered it as part of the process.
Not to start something but I have strong opinion against scooping the extension on high end mandolins. SEE THE OTHER THREAD IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE YOUR OPINION ON THIS POINT. My point here is if the finger rest is on it will be barely below the binding so, your technique might need to change to accommodate the finger rest ( thus avoiding the mythical click on the extension.) I played mandolin for 12-14 years without the finger rest, but it wasn't hard for me to change. Mike Compton ( ! )says the finger rest makes you play correctly.
Finally. Why not play before you purchase?

[Bernie Daniel]

Richard Walz: I have a Carlson signed F5-L that is outstanding (tonally and in workmanship). My question is whatever happened to Mr. Carlson?

I realize you asked your question several weeks ago -- but I just noticed it now.

I do not have a detailed answer but I know that when Flatiron was bought by Gibson that Mr. Carlson stayed on with them a while in Montana and then I think he went briefly to Gibson in Nashville - but eventually he left the company and I am led to understand that he runs a instrumemt carving company located in the Montana or Idaho area.

It is my understanding that only a few people have a direct access to him these days -- I do not know the reason for that.

[Bernie Daniel]

bowfinger: I have a November 2002 Fern, The "final version of the current graduations and other changes made to the older pre Derrington inspired model F5Ls.

My F-5 Fern is an April 2002 model. Do you happen to know what the changes were that would be different in your mandolin and mine? That is can one find a chronological list of these changes somewhere?

I'd like to know what the changes in the specs were as it proceed from the the F-5L and to the F-5 Fern.

Thanks

[GTison]

to answer your question 44, No differences between early 2002 and late 2002 that I know of but I only learned from here a specific date of changes.

Follow this link for a GREAT discussion about Gibson mandolin with Charlie Derrington.

http://www.mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/derrington.php

[Bernie Daniel]

Goodness what an incredible link.

Thanks so much -- I think I've seen little pieces of That (those) interview(s) at different places and different times -- but there in one place is all the information you could reasonably want about Flatiron-Gibson-Loar-master model-Derrington etc.

I've book marked it but I'm going also to save it as a .pdf -- just too much good information there to lose.

Just as you suggested Charlie, notes that by the end of 2001 all of the desigen changes had been incorporated into the F-5 Fern.

Do you get the impression that your Fern has continued "to grow" -- tonewise? I know that the ears can play tricks on you -- so I am not 100% certain about this.

However, I do have recordings of the mandolin from 3 years ago, and 2 years ago etc. and I am pretty confident that this mandolin has steadly improved in tone -- I am surprised because it was fully broken in when I bought it in 2004 (supposedly as a two year old).

[Rheatown]

I have a 2004 F-5G that I have played heavily. When I first got it I changed the strings, and by mistake took all the strings off at once to clean the fretboard. I used the footer imprint in the finish to reset the bridge.

Last fall I took my mandolin to the Factory store in Nashville for a refret and setup. Some guy there named Danny took one look at it and said "This setup is terrible". I was so embarrassed.

Until...

Six weeks later I went back to pick up my mandolin. When I got it i strummed one chord and BOOM, it went off like the cannon you hear about.

I thought that if a G could sound this good, I wanted one of those Ferns. I went to Music Outlet in Sevierville (Gibson Dealer) and explained to the owner I wanted a Varnished Fern or a Regular Fern. He only had a Master Model and a distressed Master.

I wanted to get an idea of what my G would be worth, so he took it out of the case and BOOM again. He looked at me like I was crazy for wanting to trade.

Needless to say I still have my G and I may go back eventually for a varnished Fern when the economy picks back up.

In the meantime, kudos to that Danny guy at the Gibson factory in Nashville. I am very pleased with whatever he did to my axe.

[Mandolinut2]

Hello Everyone, I have lost the little acorn nut (thats what I call it) that holds the pickguard on my 1989 F-5L MM, Have been told the newer ones are different. Anyone have any idea where I might find one? Thanks for any and all information.