The weber "sound"

[Bryon Winger]

Hey folks. I have been reading quite a few posts where someone mentions how Weber mandos sound different from other similar mandos.

I realize that every maker's builds will have their own unique voicing, but what is it about Weber in particular that seems to get brought up?

Is it just that people are consistenly pleased with Webers in general?

Bryon

[Wesley]

With the large number of models that Weber makes I'm not sure you pin down just one Weber sound. I have a Bridger and a Fern and they both sound very different. And yes I'm please with both Weber sounds.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I think that all Weber owners seem to be more than pleased with the sound of their instruments. I have a Fern & Beartooth,both sound different & both sound good. Over here,unless you happen to be a 'Happy Chappie' such as Trevor,the owner of TAMCO in Brighton,UK,there's not much scope for trying & comparing other Mandolins,especially ones of 'quality' (a bit snobbish that !). For what it's worth my thoughts are that the Webers are very open,clear but with good bass response & pretty LOUD,
Saska

[Rob Powell]

The Weber sound indeed varies from instrument to instrument and model to model. #I read somewhere that Bruce Weber voices all the mandolins and his approach is to match the tone to the wood and I mean to the individual wood in the instrument. #All the Webers I have played have projected very well and all had a character of their own with some consistent tonal qualities within the model.

Bruce Weber really has a talent for getting the most out of an instrument.

My Yellowstone looks and sounds like an old, played in F5 and it's not even a year old! #I can't wait til it opens up http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Susan H.]

My Weber SE has a deeper, richer and louder sound than my Eastman. I know it's still being broken in, but if this is just the beginning think of where it will be in a few years! The SE projects well even without my ToneGard on (I still use it though). It's not one the high end Webers, but it certainly is good enough for me. I love it. Susan

[chasray]

I have two Webers and they sound different. The custom Bitterroot keeps sounding better all the time, and I've been banging on it for about 5 years. It's not the pure classic dry bluegrass sound, but a bit more complex. I don't know how else to say it. But I really like it.

My bridger is not broken in yet, but with an oval hole and cedar top it's warm and projects well. A great crossover instrument for more than one style.

I hope to never sell either and let my boys fight over who gets what.

[northfolk]

I have a distressed Diamondback, about six months old, and it absolutely KICKS! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Gerard Dick]

My Yellowstone was clean clear and loud right out of the box.. Even my wife likes the sound and will not leave the room when I'm playing. Now that says a lot. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Kevin Briggs]

Mmmm, the Weber sound. That's a nice thing to think about.

I agree that there is not a single, dominant Weber tone. I think there are some dominant sound qualities, but the tone differs from mandolin to mandolin. I'll talk about three Webers I played at length:
1. 2005 custom Bitteroot (red spruce top)
2. 2007 Big Sky A (cedar top)
3. 2008 Weber Fern (red spruce top)

First, all three mandolins had/have great volume. They sound very different when listening from the front of the instruments as opposed to from the top. They sound icnredibly rich when listening from the front, in full range of the f holes. They also have the potential for a robust chop, with the proper action. If the action is a little high, watch out. They will kick very loud. If it's low, they will hummmmmmmmm, and it's more thwacky.

Of the three, the 2005 custom Bitteroot was a hulk. It was just a muscle machine that dominated jams and made our banjo player ask me to play quieter. I played it with J75s for a while and it was too much. The tone was very, very powerful, but it was also kind of hard to play. I kept the action high, so it was an intense mandolin.

The Big Sky A could get that "Thile" tone. By that I mean it could sound kind of liquid if you played it right, and the cedar added some good responsiveness that allowed for a light touch. In addition, it had a nice middle of the road kind of chop with great volume, albeit not overbearing. It was more studio friendly in that regard, and more jam friendly. I liked it very much, as it was so much easier to play than my custom Bitteroot, and sounded so much better than a mandolin I had which was made by a well-known indepenedent luthier.

Lastly, the custom Fern is the cat's you know what. It also doesn't quite have the hulkiness of the custom Bitteroot, but it is way more sophistocated. It responds well to a light chop, and gets really throaty when chopped hard. If I hit it right with a moderate chop, I can get a deep, resonant sound that noticeably comes from the air chamber. It's very cool. In regards to single notes, I think of Drew Emmitt's Nugget. It is woody, perfectly balanced, round, and sweet, and plays very easily. I'd say the Big Sky A was a little easier to play, but the tone on the custom Fern is second to none, in my estimation.

So, what's the same? They have a nice chop, unique and impressive tone, and seem to me to be in the upper-class of mandolins. I have played some wonderful mandolins, and my custom Fern takes a back seat to none in regard to the volume and complexity of tone.

[Weagle]

I ditto Kevin's remarks about the sound. In groups that I play in there are two Bitteroots. One you can barely hear and one that will blast you out of the room almost. Setting seems to have alot to do with the volume.

I am no expert but I do keep hinting to my wife that I would love a Fern under the tree before I pass on. LOL.

Weagle

[red7flag]

There seems to be an overall Weber approach and tone. That being said, models will vary a great deal within that approach. There is a Weber sound, but I have noticed some change in the last couple of years starting with the Cedar topped mandos and continued with the Vintage instrument made from that lovely old wood they got from a fiddle maker. You can really spot the new Weber sound on the Dailey and Vincent CD, especially on the duets. While mine is an oval, it had a similar but fatter sound. No mistaking that they are from the new approach. I have a friend that got a SE Cedar top from the Mandolin Store. Somewhat different sound, but one very solid and fun instrument to play. They have really dialed in their approach and I don't think that it is any accident that you are now hearing them on some serious bluegrass ablums. You can also hear that sound on most recent Rhonda Vincent CD. I was surprised to hear they will not be a presence at IBMA. Rick, you will be missed. Had he not been there last year, the Vintage A would not be mine now. It is that simple.
Tony

[JeffD]

Lets not forget the "economical" Weber Aspen, a wonder of an instrument.

[Ken Olmstead]

I owned a yellowstone and now my Fern. There are easier mandolins to play. I don't know what the deal is but they were both set up well, they just play a little harder than other mandolins. The sound is addictive and hard to let go. The Yellowstone had it and I seem to get more out of the Fern. My playing skills have improved since then but both are fabulous mandolins. I agree with Kevin. I have played a lot of "High end" mandolins that did not impress me and I was awful glad to get my Fern back! I have played a couple of Heiden's though and....

That "wet" sound Kevin gets out of his Fern is to die for!!

[man dough nollij]

The Big Sky A could get that "Thile" tone. By that I mean it could sound kind of liquid if you played it right, and the cedar added some good responsiveness that allowed for a light touch. In addition, it had a nice middle of the road kind of chop with great volume, albeit not overbearing. It was more studio friendly in that regard, and more jam friendly. I liked it very much, as it was so much easier to play than my custom Bitteroot, and sounded so much better than a mandolin I had which was made by a well-known indepenedent luthier.
Kevin,

I really like your technique and the tone you get out of the Big Sky on your Youtube clip. That is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for in tone. Was it X-braced?

It seems to have a lot of "pop" on the high notes, and manages to be sweet and clear and punchy at the same time.

I've heard X-braced Gilchrists that had those same characteristics. I'm not player enough or rich enough to spend the big bucks. That's probably years away, if ever.

You obviously let the Big Sky go. What were its shortcomings? It doesn't seem to have that dry, hollow old Gibson sound, but that's okay with me. Did you trade up to get that more bluegrassy sound?

Thanks,

Lee

[Ivan Kelsall]

Ken - That's just the sound of Kevin ! (only joking).He does get a great sound though & your own Fern sounds spectacular on your clips as i've already told you. The tone that Sierra Hull pulls out of her new Weber is second to none either.
Let's be straight - Webers are stunning instruments that can hold their own against any other makers. Yes,they'll be different - but NEVER inferior. Just my totally un-biased opinion,
Saska

[Kevin Briggs]

The Big Sky A could get that "Thile" tone. By that I mean it could sound kind of liquid if you played it right, and the cedar added some good responsiveness that allowed for a light touch. In addition, it had a nice middle of the road kind of chop with great volume, albeit not overbearing. It was more studio friendly in that regard, and more jam friendly. I liked it very much, as it was so much easier to play than my custom Bitteroot, and sounded so much better than a mandolin I had which was made by a well-known indepenedent luthier.
Kevin,

I really like your technique and the tone you get out of the Big Sky on your Youtube clip. That is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for in tone. Was it X-braced?

It seems to have a lot of "pop" on the high notes, and manages to be sweet and clear and punchy at the same time.

I've heard X-braced Gilchrists that had those same characteristics. I'm not player enough or rich enough to spend the big bucks. That's probably years away, if ever.

You obviously let the Big Sky go. What were its shortcomings? It doesn't seem to have that dry, hollow old Gibson sound, but that's okay with me. Did you trade up to get that more bluegrassy sound?

Thanks,

Lee
Lee:

I played the Big Sky for a few months as a loaner while I had some work done on my Fern. I liked it very much and was trying to figure out a way to keep it, but I couldn't afford a second nice mandolin.

I'm not sure about the barcing. I think the sleekness has more to do with the cedar top. It did not sing as much as my Fern does in the high register, and the chop was more balanced and focused, if that makes sense.

There is also a Fern A style.

[Ken Olmstead]

Ken - That's just the sound of Kevin ! (only joking).He does get a great sound though & your own Fern sounds spectacular on your clips as i've already told you. The tone that Sierra Hull pulls out of her new Weber is second to none either.
# Let's be straight - Webers are stunning instruments that can hold their own against any other makers. Yes,they'll be different - but NEVER inferior. Just my totally un-biased opinion,
# # # # # # # Saska
Thanks Saska! I can actually squeeze Kevin like tone from my Fern if I use a Dawg pick like the he uses and adjust my playing. But I'm Ken and have my own sound and Kevin's sound is best done by him! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I often have people tell me that I make any mandolin sound good (I would argue the contrary) but that shows how much player is responsible for their tone. There was a Rover I played once that really did not sound good no matter what I did! (I am sure it was just me!)

I think Weber's are kinda like coffee, maybe a little of an acquired taste, but once hooked it makes for a really bad headache if you try and switch to Sanka! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Ivan Kelsall]

The thing that ALWAYS amazes me,is how good my Mandolin (Fern) sounds when played by someone else (not that often,as there aren't too many Mandolin players near me). I think i understand why Chris Thile adopts such an awkward position when sitting down,it's so he's leaning over the instrument in order to hear himself better. We just can't hear our own instruments to the best advantage. I'm working on a technique to play it behind my back,so i can hear it better from the front - shouldn't take more than 2-3 years,
Saska

[Ivan Kelsall]

I just had a thought re.the 'wet' sound that you mentioned that Mr Briggs coaxes from his Mandolin. I have a strong feeling that Kevin uses 'coated' strings. I used to use EXP coated
strings on my Acoustic Guitar & they do have a very distinctive sound,almost 'loose',the opposite of a 'tight' sound - that could be the reason for Kevin's particular sound,
Saska

[Gerry Cassidy]

I have a Bridger F4 and Bighorn Oval Hole, and when I changed from JF's to the FT74's (the wound A string is da' bomb) the tone really came in and sweetened up. The ground string keeps a bit of the brightness, yet gets rid of a whole bunch of string/fret noise. I'll be staying with them from here on out... until somethin' better comes along.

I'm more into ITM, Old Time, and Jazz mando. Not really a bluegrasser, and have found the wider freq response of the Weber instruments (especially the oval holes models) to fit better with my ear than the other (very nice) instruments that are geared more for BG. Also, the fact they have seemed to have kept their pricing just below the stratosphere is a big help!

[Kevin Briggs]

I totally agree about the Weber pricing. It's a great plan, based on the norms in the mandolin world.

As far as the strings I use, I use EXP74s. Those strings combined with low action and the Dawg II pick help make teh tone. I also don't have much interest in the typical bluegrass tone, so it works for me.

Thanks for your perceptions!

[peterleyenaar]

I just bought a Weber Vintage A, what a fine instrument, I have been playing it all week long, better get one before that pile of old wood runs out.

i have owned many vintage Gibsons , F2, F4, A 1,2,3,Z, and the folks at Weber have done a wonderful job of creating that rich old mandolin sound.

now , my credit card looks a little sick


Peter

[harrykat]

has anyone played one of the Diamondback Distressed models?
they seem like a good deal for a red spruce topped mandolin; the only thing i've heard are sound bytes and my computer speaker is terrible. however, as bad as it is i have enjoyed your videos ken. that weber is a killer!

[Kevin Briggs]

I played a Diamondback at IBMA last year, if I'm not mistaken. It was at least a distressed model that was at the Artisan Guitar Booth.

I recall it having an open sound to it, and that it felt good in my hand. It didn't stand out for me though, in that I thought the other Webers at the booth also sounded great. I read some reports from people who like the distrsessed models over standard models because they think the tone is better. They often attribute this to a very thin finish that is a result of the distressing process. I cannot verify that.

If you like what Sound to Earth is doing and you want a distressed model, I think you'll be happy with a diamondback. My opinion is that a person usually buys a distressed mandolin for how it looks.

[Ken Olmstead]

has anyone played one of the Diamondback Distressed models?
they seem like a good deal for a red spruce topped mandolin; the only thing i've heard are sound bytes and my computer speaker is terrible. however, as bad as it is i have enjoyed your videos ken. that weber is a killer!
Thanks Jeff! I have never played a Diamondback but they are pretty cool looking. It is for babies though as it comes with its own rattle! Of course you can get red spruce on any model you want. The next one I order will have an englemenn top for sure! I have consistantly liked englemann tops on mandolins. For now I guess I will make do with what I have (sarcasm)... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[shadco]

I've had a diamondback now since march.

The finish is thin, it's loud and sounds great. Frankly I'd perfer a little less distressing but one things for sure, I don't obsess over the possibility of any little nicks or dings. I also really like the patina it gets from handling and playing.
It also came with Sam Bsuh strings which seem to really help get the best out of it.

http://www.pbase.com/shadco/image/96084425/medium.jpg

[Ivan Kelsall]

Pardon my ignorance folks,but what is a Weber "Diamondback" (ok,i know it's a mandolin !),but i've had a look at the Weber site & it's not listed. I assume that it's a 'variant' on an existing model,if so which & what are the differences apart from the 'distressing' shown above. It's a beautiful looking instrument,no doubt about that - i like the distressed look,it would certainly appease my concience if i 'dinged' one,
Saska

[Ken Olmstead]

I don't know enough about the Daimondback to give any info. I don't know if it a distressed Yellowstone or Fern or what ever. Probably just its own thing that comes with a rattlesnake rattle if I am not mistaken.

I am going to back pedal on my statement that Webers play harder. I have got to spend some time on some other mandolins for awhile recently and when I went back to my Fern, it did not seem hard to play at all. I think my senses are overloaded when I pickup a different mandolin so it may affect my preceptions of its playablity. Glad I got that off my chest! I was going to change it but then the board was offline!

[Rick Banuelos]

Just FYI: The Diamondback is a Mandolin Store Exclusive. Exclusive models do not usually appear on our webpage.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Rick - perhaps an 'honourary mention' on your web page would advise viewers & interested persons that such a Mandolin 'existed' at all,it just might be what they're after. If they don't know about it,they won't look for it - just my 2p worth,
Saska

[harrykat]

hey guys,
great information, i love this place because you can learn so much. by the way kevin, i checked your videos and really enjoyed them. tour mandolin is to kill for and i loved the video where you described it. i think your are right by suggesting the appeal of a distrested mando is the look (or thin finish). however after hearing those ferns, it might be worth the extra to get the tone. thanks to all of you for your feedback

[Kevin Briggs]

Yes, sir. The Ferns are no joke. I'm biased, but mine just keeps surprising me. I've had it for about nine months, and it matures every day, without a doubt. Each day is better than the last, and I adored it from day one. Like all mandolins, it sounds better the more I play it. If I get into a routine of playing it for about at leats an hour a day, look out. It is all warm and toasty all the time. It's really throaty, sustainy, and hummy. Is that clear?

Rick, nice mug. I'm not sure whose picture is dorkier: yours or mine.

[Rob Powell]

Pardon my ignorance folks,but what is a Weber "Diamondback" (ok,i know it's a mandolin !),but i've had a look at the Weber site & it's not listed. I assume that it's a 'variant' on an existing model,if so which & what are the differences apart from the 'distressing' shown above. It's a beautiful looking instrument,no doubt about that - i like the distressed look,it would certainly appease my concience if i 'dinged' one,
Saska

A "Diamondback" appears to be a distressed Yellowstone with some upgrades or mods from standard Yellowstone specs.

And despite the appearance, I'm surprisingly protective of my distressed Yellowstone. It wasn't cheap, it sounds fabulous and even though I'm not concerned with pick marks and such I would cringe if somebody put a ding or a scratch on it....go figure ;)

[Rob Powell]

Rick, nice mug. I'm not sure whose picture is dorkier: yours or mine.

I would comment on this one but I respect you both too much and I'm a ~:> :grin:

There's a very good reason I don't have my pic in there ....

[El Rey del Mando]

[QUOTE=The Briggadier;579526]Yes, sir. The Ferns are no joke. I'm biased, but mine just keeps surprising me. I've had it for about nine months, and it matures every day, without a doubt. Each day is better than the last, and I adored it from day one. Like all mandolins, it sounds better the more I play it. If I get into a routine of playing it for about at leats an hour a day, look out. It is all warm and toasty all the time. It's really throaty, sustainy, and hummy. Is that clear?

I know just what you mean Kevin. My Weber is not a fern model but a custom yellowstone with a red spruce top. It was made in April this year and I play it for a couple hours a day. It is unbelievable how much better it gets every day. you describe it pretty well although I don't quite understand hummy.:grin:I did change the bridge to a Cumberland Acoustics and scooped the board and the sweet spot is fully accessible with no pick click now. BTW,I enjoy your youtube pages.

John

[Dick Wade]

I have owned a Yellowstone with a cedar top since December 2006. I chose it after trying a number of Webers, Gibsons, Collings and a used Stelling at the Mandolin Store when they were still in Ohio. It was the mando that spoke to me and I took it home. Since that day I have used it for many shows and studio work, and have played many other top end mandos including Gilchirsts and a Nugget F. My Yellowstone still speaks to me and cured me of my quest for another mandolin. Thats not to say its the best mandolin out there, but it is the mando I want in my hands as a working instrument.

[Rick Banuelos]

Kevin-

It's been almost 5 years since that picture was taken. Besides, you've seen the beer show trailer, so you should know that I don't mind looking like a dork in public...
:whistling:

[El Rey del Mando]

Here is my custom Yellowstone.I scooped the board and changed the bridge to a Cumberland Acoustics.
34866

John

[GRW3]

John,

You switched to a Cumberland bridge. Did your Weber come with the standard Brekke bridge or the newer Traditional Brekke Bridge? I had a chance to play new Bitterroots last week with one of each. I preferred the sound of the Trad version the best. The Cumberland appears to be a very traditional Gibson-like bridge with the sharp corner that just cuts into the ball of my thumb. I've radiused the edge of the similar Eastman bridges for comfort but the smaller less obtrusive Trad Brekke is more comfortable to start.

[El Rey del Mando]

George,
It came with a traditional Brekke. I did not like it. I like the traditional Gibson type bridge. One thing I can tell you is,the mandolin took on a much better tone within the first day and here,a month later is a killer mandolin. One thing I did like about the Traditional Brekke was the adjustment nut with the wrench. I thought that there was too much metal in that bridge. Don't get me wrong,I am not trying to bash the Brekke. I am sure that many people are completely happy with them. Of course, one will never know which is better until you change them out. To my ears,the Cumberland blew the Brekke away on this instrument.

John

[woodwizard]

For the most part every Weber I've laid my hands on really sounded pretty good. I sampled several. The best was a MF5. That one was a killer however I did get to try a very nice looking custom built weber F model that didn't really sound that well. Not that much tone, volume and was very thin sounding although the fit and finish was beautiful. You never know until you try any mando I guess.

[GRW3]

I did get to try a very nice looking custom built weber F model that didn't really sound that well. Not that much tone, volume and was very thin sounding although the fit and finish was beautiful...

I have the sense that Weber will make a custom fit the customer's concept of a mandolin. I've read more than once people who say the love the 'f' looks but not the Bluegrass sound. What did the owner think?

[Chris Biorkman]

For the most part every Weber I've laid my hands on really sounded pretty good. I sampled several. The best was a MF5. That one was a killer however I did get to try a very nice looking custom built weber F model that didn't really sound that well. Not that much tone, volume and was very thin sounding although the fit and finish was beautiful. You never know until you try any mando I guess.

The MF5 is a Collings model.

[Rob Powell]

I have the sense that Weber will make a custom fit the customer's concept of a mandolin. I've read more than once people who say the love the 'f' looks but not the Bluegrass sound. What did the owner think?

That's absolutely true....if they're building a custom mandolin for you, just talk to Rick B. or even Bruce Weber and tell them the voicing you're shooting for. Bruce will decide how best to accomplish that and I'm sure you won't be disappointed ;)

I've played everything from a Bitterroot that had a hybrid sound, a little woody on the bass side and very bell-like on the treble to my Yellowstone which is a bluegrass monster to a really nice custom vintage oval that rang for days to a Big Sky and a Fern that just sang over the whole spectrum.

I heard or read somewhere that they had made a mando with red spruce on the bass side and engelmann on the treble (or vice-versa.) Now THAT'S custom :cool:

[woodwizard]

For the most part every Weber I've laid my hands on really sounded pretty good. I sampled several. The best was a MF5. That one was a killer however I did get to try a very nice looking custom built weber F model that didn't really sound that well. Not that much tone, volume and was very thin sounding although the fit and finish was beautiful. You never know until you try any mando I guess.

[Rick Banuelos]

I heard or read somewhere that they had made a mando with red spruce on the bass side and engelmann on the treble (or vice-versa.) Now THAT'S custom :cool:

That's still one of the most incredible-sounding mandos I've ever heard. I could hear it on the second floor from my downstairs office.

Then, I shipped it away.
:crying:

[Rob Powell]

That's still one of the most incredible-sounding mandos I've ever heard. I could hear it on the second floor from my downstairs office.

Then, I shipped it away.
:crying:

Yes, but you COULD get another one and much more easily than I could...if I told you I knew the perfect pint actually was, would you help a brother out? :grin:

[Gerard Dick]

I have a Yellowstone acquired June of this year. By accident. I was at Elderly's to get acquainted with another of a different make with intent to take it home but it refused to speak to me. It sounded like thud dead. I didn't want to waste the trip and opportunity to check out some other nice instruments so I started noodling around on some of the toys on the wall. WELL when I picked up the Weber it was all over. It just said in no uncertain terms "Take me home and forget about those other ones. I will make you happy." So far the promise is kept. It has a warm sound. Loud, clear and awesome sustain. :mandosmiley:

[Andrew Faltesek]

Oh, I'm biased! I played and played and played all kinds of mandos, and the modest STE had THE sound for me! I believe each instrument needs to be tweaked for its particular balanced sound...Bruce Weber and the STE crew are hard to beat for attention to the completed instrument, especially considering the production capacity and range of instruments offered.

I wanted and wanted a Yellowstone for a long time...now I'm trying to reassure myself I deserve the Weber Fern Sound...oh yeah!

[woodwizard]

GRW3 quote:
I have the sense that Weber will make a custom fit the customer's concept of a mandolin. I've read more than once people who say the love the 'f' looks but not the Bluegrass sound. What did the owner think?
*********
Oh he was very happy with it and was very excited about owning it. He was playing mine and I was playing his for about 30 minutes or so. Who Knows ... he might have thought the same thing about mine. At the time we were both tickled to play each others mando. Guess I'm just use to a more fuller sound than thaten. It was a very nice mando don't get me wrong. I just don't think it was talking to me and I know I wouldn't have gave that kind of money for it that he said he gave. Earlier I said the best one I played was a MF5 ... that was wrong. It was a Weber F model but I'm not sure what model. And it reminded me of a very high dollar varnished Collins I played. The MF5 was in the same price range as his custom Weber.

[Rick Banuelos]

Yes, but you COULD get another one and much more easily than I could...if I told you I knew the perfect pint actually was, would you help a brother out? :grin:

:disbelief:

Hmmm...

I'm listening.
:cool:

[Rob Powell]

Go to Wales...look for a beer once known as "The Prince's Beer" but it should be served cask conditioned from the right pub...more directions forthcoming when I know how I can get my own red spruce/engelmann distressed model ;)