The 'country & westernising' of bluegrass music [Archive]

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-01-2008, 1:45am

It may be just me,but i wondered if any other folk on here who may listen to Bluegrassradio.org on the I'net,have noticed a trend towards what i can only call, 'Country & Western' style songs ?. By that i means slow,easybeat,3 chord trick Guitar strumming (& little else - no Banjo,Mandolin or Fiddle) ballads reminiscent of the sort of songs performed by Ernest Tubb & others years back.
I have NO problem with C & W as long as it's not masquerading as BLUEGRASS !. I can rarely listen to BGR.org for more than 10 minutes these days,without one of this style of song cropping up.
Compared to the C & W stations on the 'net,Bluegrass is
a poor cousin,with relatively few stations. I just wish they'd leave the C & W stuff out of it & stick to the 'Hard Stuff' - purely my personal opinion ,but i'd like to know the opinions of others on this,
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

laddy jota

Sep-01-2008, 6:24am

I don't listen to bluegrass radio but there have been lots of funny things happening to bluegrass music for years. I think Popgrass is more prevalent than C&W-grass nowadays. Fortunately, I still have my Lilly Brothers album to bring me back to the golden age when I start to forget what bluegrass sounds like.

Crowder

Sep-01-2008, 6:58am

You know, I was starting to think that bluegrass was losing its traditional sound, especially after finding drums on releases by Grasstowne and Skaggs among others. I was also listening to the Stringdusters and C-Sky and Chatham County Line and thinking, "This is good music but it isn't bluegrass."

However, my wife has XM in her car, and a couple of hours of listening to Bluegrass Junction cured me. There is plenty of traditional bluegrass out there today. You just have to know where to look for it.

Lefty&French

Sep-01-2008, 7:46am

You know, I was starting to think that bluegrass was losing its traditional sound, especially after finding drums on releases by Grasstowne and Skaggs among others... and thinking, "This is good music but it isn't bluegrass."
As when the Country Gentlemen or Jim & Jesse used to insert drums in their LPs during the seventies? # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Crowder

Sep-01-2008, 7:48am

Clyde Clevenger

Sep-01-2008, 10:14am

"Don't <expletive edited by Moderator> on my leg and tell me it's raining."

Jim Broyles

Sep-01-2008, 10:29am

Country music - ostensibly, the music of the people who live out in the country - has had for seventy years as a subdivision the music which became known as "Bluegrass." Originally it was just a style of country music. There is nothing sacrosanct about the name "Bluegrass" which precludes easy, three-chord guitar strumming songs from being called by that name. The Stanley Brothers recorded songs with only a guitar. I don't think it's a big deal at all. If we want the strictly traditional stuff, there are places to find it.

forestabri

Sep-01-2008, 11:13am

Just my opinion, but yes I have noticed a bit of what I call "cookie cutter mentality" on a lot of the bluegrass I've been hearing on the Sirius Bluegrass station I get on Dishnetwork. I don't like newer C&W music and I hear a lot of this influence on some of the stuff Sirius plays. Too much of the same formula, like the new standard is AKUS, only they miss the heart and soul of the music. Too much like pop music. They do play older stuff every 15 min or so, I suspect so guys like me won't turn it off! I've noticed this trend since around the time "Oh Brother Where Art Thou?" came out.

Mike Bunting

Sep-01-2008, 11:20am

I think that there is not much we can do about the (d)evolution of bluegrass. North America is so urbanized and subject subjected to mass communication that the mindset that created the original can barely exist save in small pockets around North America. In my 63 years on this planet I've noticed a substantial shift in sensiblities. I was raised in farming communities, had one, and mundane things like changes in the weather affected us greatly, i.e., can we get the crop off, in time and in good shape, are predators getting our livestock this year. That stuff is pretty irrelevant to the modern urban dweller (who just seem to take as their right that they will get food at a low price, sorry, another topic). I guess I'm saying that the reality out of which he original bluegrass sprang has changed and consequently so has the music. But that being said, dissatisfaction with the current "reality" has led to a tremendous upsurge in the demand for roots music of all types, looking back at simpler times and if one is aware of it, the old music can be found. I can remember back to times when issues were simpler and more black and white, perhaps but even then I was at the tail end of that generation, I think it has been a whole different world for people born in the '60's.

f5loar

Sep-01-2008, 11:31am

After years of bluegrass bands doing various Merle Haggard songs , Merle decides it's time to do a bluegrass album.
I can go back on dozens of C&W/Opry artist who cut all bluegrass LPs in the 60's and 70's. So what's wrong with bluegrass doing c&W? Works for me. After all before the name bluegrass Monroe was just another Country Music act.
And then came Flatt&Scruggs with "Country Music in Overdrive" And then F&S do Dylan and it was all over.

Jim Broyles

Sep-01-2008, 11:33am

Yes, and if I recall correctly, the bg purists didn't care that much for Hag's bg album. Didn't make it any less good music. Too much whinin' I think.

forestabri

Sep-01-2008, 12:23pm

I wouldn't call myself a purist, but I agree with saska. If you are going to call your music "bluegrass" then that's what it should be. I realize the need for new acts to appeal to a broad base in order to get signed to a label and make money. That broad base generally includes modern Nashville C&W fans. There are plenty of new BG groups that don't do this, and consequently are not signed to the Nashville labels. So, to sum up, I think the objection I have is that because of Nashville deciding what will sell and what won't, we have a homogenizing effect on both BG and C&W. It would be nice if the programmers at Sirius and other stations realized that they are alienating a huge part of their traditional audience at the expense of attracting a newer audience. I loaned a friend who is new to this music a Bill Monroe CD and he hated it. He loves AKUS, Sam Bush and all the pretty bands though. I guess the purists are left to do what they have always done and ignore trends and play for the love of the music rather that the almighty buck. And I believe in the long run the music will prevail, just as it outlived the 70's with all those drums and reverb...my two cents.:)

Jim Broyles

Sep-01-2008, 12:44pm

Well I'm pretty new to bluegrass although not completely unfamiliar with the genre. We always had music in our house when I was growing up. Country, pop, top forty AM stuff, jazz, R&B, Lawrence Welk, Ed Sullivan, Hullabaloo, Shindig, the blue box sets of classical LP's from the grocery store, acoustic blues such as Mississippi John Hurt. My parents weren't really musicians and we didn't make a lot of music as a family, but my dad played some guitar and some of his friends did too. They would get together at out house sometimes and play and sing, so I heard a lot of old songs, even some bluegrass numbers #but I didn't really desire to learn it and play in until about three and a half years ago. To be honest, I don't like AKUS, Sam Bush, and the pretty bands nearly as much as I do The Stanley Brothers and Bill Monroe. However I wouldn't call the other stuff any less bluegrass. #The older stuff just sounds better to me.

mandolirius

Sep-01-2008, 1:26pm

One thing I would point out is that C & W (Country & Western) is no longer an accurate description of Country music. If there is any genre that needs to be added to "Country" these days, it would be rock, I would think.

In fact, if you look through the industry trade journals for the past decade you find that this is quite deliberate. The classic rock format has been winding down and, in an effort to capture the aging baby-boomers who are tiring of it, the industry mavens in Nashville decided to add more guitars, go for a "grungier" sound and see if they could win over the classic rock listeners who were tiring of that format but found nowhere else to go on the radio. Now that satellite radio is becoming so prevalent, that strategy may fail. Instead, we may see the radio market fracture into even smaller pieces.

MandoSquirrel

Sep-01-2008, 2:05pm

I'd almost as soon listen to "ballads reminiscent of the sort of songs performed by Ernest Tubb & others years back" as late '40's through '60's bluegrass, but almost anything beats most contemporary "bluegrass" to me. Bluegrassers tend not to like when I express my opinion about Bluegrass, but I LOVE GOOD, authentic Bluegrass as played by Monroe & the Stanley's in the '50's, and I love the "Country" music from the beginning through Tubb & his peers, prior to the "Nashville" sound taking over. Two branches off the same musical "tree". Modern "country" is far worse than modern "bluegrass", though.

hellindc

Sep-01-2008, 8:59pm

OK, I can see the point that started this thread -- about doing older C&W without any bluegrass instruments or arrangements, but just because a song from another genre is played as bluegrass does not disqualify the song from that category. If if does, then a few of old timey songs done by Bill M. with the Bluegrass Boyes don't qualify either.

Say what you wish, but Chatham County line is bluegrass to me. Lots of original stuff. If you don't think so, well, you don't get the power to decide that. Sorry.

vermin307

Sep-01-2008, 9:49pm

Well, I consoder myself a purist, but I do also like country, among other things, I prefer traditional bluegrass for my tastes, but what I have seen a few instances occur of late is a perfectly good bluegrass song, that has great vocals and instrumentations not to mention the writing, then the song is "countryized" ( not sure that is actually word..lol) and is released as a country song along with a video. I don't fault the artist, they have families to feed and bills to pay, so they are doing what they can to make a living. Tossing in artist interpuratation of a song, when its the same artist that released both the bluegrass and country version, I think , to me anyway, it says bluegrass is not good enough for the general public, so listen to this instead...ok off my soap box and back to eating my donut http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

man dough nollij

Sep-01-2008, 11:49pm

Thanks to all previous posters who are keeping this civil-- this topic can be a bit of a hand grenade.

It has just recently occurred to me that bluegrass is different from what I originally thought it was. I grew up in Alaska, and I remember the Talkeetna Bluegrass Festival. I might have thought of mainstream BG as Sam, Leftover Salmon, or YMSB.

From an early age, I thought of BG as kind of a cool, hippy alternative to other "slick" genres like C&W, pop, R&B and hair metal. I was never in the South, and I was never exposed to bluegrassers in powder blue suits, string ties, and cowboy hats.

Now that I've gotten a little deeper into it, I realize that there was a certain amount of "slickness" to the glory days of BG, and the pioneers would certainly never be confused with hippies.

Now I don't think traditional bluegrass is changing much. I think commercialism and slickness are like a disease that floats from genre to genre, infecting it with shallowness and glam.

In the seventies it infected disco. In the late seventies and early eighties, it infected heavy metal. Then it infected electronic music. Duran Duran? Ugh. It seems to me that C&W has been dead center of the glam infection for the last ten years or so, and the time is probably right for the Nashville/Hollywood/Madison avenue types to shift the focus. Is BG next? I doubt it. Not enough money there. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-02-2008, 12:59am

I didn't start this thread to try to 'polarise' (that's one for LEE)opinion,but to try to find out if any other people on here were getting the same feeling re.what' seems to be happening to Bluegrass.
Bluegrass music has always had quite a few songs that could be 'classed' almost as C & W,but they still used a proper instrumental line up. Some of the stuff i'm hearing is straight out of the George Jones & Tammy Wynette songbook - ok,i've no problem with that as i stated before but DON'T call it Bluegrass. Someone posted on another thread that AKUS don't call themselves a Bluegrass band anymore,at least they've done the honourable thing NOT to masquerade as one. But many of the songs i'm hearing have no place on Bluegrass records IMHO. Yes, praise the good Lord,we still have many wonderful bands still playing Bluegrass & i personally love some of the 'new-grass'style bands such as the Stringdusters,Kane's River & the Kenny & Amanda Smith Band & have recordings by all of them & more,but please keep C & W away from Bluegrass.
I know that Scott,the guy that does such a wonderful job keeping BGRadio.org going,has said in the past that he feels obliged to play many of the CD's he gets sent to him out of courtesy,even though he knows that it's NOT really Bluegrass. I suspect that these CD's are by new,relatively unknown bands,but the main culprits that i'm hearing are well established Bluegrass artistes,who frankly,should know better - again,purely my opinion.
I still on rare occasions play with a 'scratch' band,& if we did some of the songs i've heard,on stage,even in the UK,we'd be lynched !!!. Mainly,because of our relative scarcity of bands,we like to keep 'em traditional.Many thanks for your views,
Saska

man dough nollij

Sep-02-2008, 1:10am

I still on rare occasions play with a 'scratch' band,& if we did some of the songs i've heard,on stage,even in the UK,we'd be lynched !!!
Saska,

There's a purist Bluegrass scene in the UK? I didn't know it had caught on over there?

I hope my comments on C&W and BG didn't lean to the inflammatory side-- didn't mean it that way.

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-02-2008, 2:00am

Hi Lee - I'll take that as a joke (???). Bluegrass has had quite a following over here in the UK & Ireland since the early '60's. I began playing in 1963 (Banjo)& 3 years later in '66,my band opened for Bill Monroe & his boys when they played the MSG (Manchester Sports Guild) Folk Club in my home town of Manchester. Earlier that year,i'd travelled down to London,to the Royal Albert Hall,to see the Stanley Brothers & the Clinch Mt.Boys.
I'm glad that i did,as Carter passed away 6 months later.
The great Bill Clifton who had the Dixie Mt.Boys band in the USA,was living over here at the time & was instrumental (literally), in getting 'Bluegrass UK' up & running.
These days,we get a steady stream of bands over here for the festivals,both from the USA & from Europe. "Special Concensus" were guesting at the North Wales Bluegrass Festival in July. In June we had "G2" from Sweden at another festival in North Wales & many other bands come over to the 'old countries' & boy are we glad to have 'em !,
Stay warm - Saska

mandozilla

Sep-02-2008, 3:41am

"I didn't start this thread to try to 'polarise' (that's one for LEE)opinion,but to try to find out if any other people on here were getting the same feeling re.what' seems to be happening to Bluegrass."

Like most of you I listen to other forms of music and enjoy it. But I only pick traditional BG music...that's my preference. I can listen to Thile, Bush, AKUS and what not but to me it's not BG. Where I also see this BG morphing is at jams. Since OBWAT, many people have come to BG music without knowing what BG really is. Some think it isn't BG if the tempo isn't always fast. Some want to attempt to sing BG but can't get beyond the modern pop/country vocal sounds.(barf!) Some have no clue about BG rhythm and try to play with folk, rock, or country rhythms. Some think 3/4 time numbers suck and should always be 2/4 or 4/4 time. And a lot of these jammers try to do country songs (cause they don't know much of the BG repertoire?) BG style with varying degrees of success. They either don't want to, or don't have the time, to really learn BG music. The sad part is many of these folks form bands that call themselves BG and play in their local and regional areas. It's not just some of the PRO's that are degrading BG music. Excuse my long winded rant and no offense intended. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

man dough nollij

Sep-02-2008, 4:06am

Hi Lee - I'll take that as a joke
No, honest. I didn't know there was a real traditional bluegrass thing going on in Europe. It seems to me that there is still only an embryonic scene going on with celtic music in the states, and I guess I made the (misguided) assumption that American traditional music would be as slow to catch on there, on the other side of the pond.

Goes to show you what I know, eh? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-02-2008, 6:25am

Lee - Check out UK Bluegrass http://www.ukbluegrass.com/ & The Bluegrass forum http://thebluegrassforum.yuku.com/. There are lots of bands that have been going for over ten years & a few that have been playing together since the '60's.
Re.Celtic music in the USA - There are lots of players on the Cafe who's main music is Celtic,but they are possibly like myself, 'bedroom pickers' as i mostly am these days, with a few welcome exceptions when my wife sets me free to 'Mandolise' the neighbourhood.
I think that Tim O'Brien is the most notable (well known) player of Celtic music in the USA,but i may be wrong on that. I know that in the UK, we have Simon Mayer & possibly a few others who are mainly Celtic players. Personally,i love Celtic music,but until i can play my 'main' music,Bluegrass as well as i want to,i'll sit it out on the Celtic stuff - or maybe not !.
Reading the post by mandozilla above,seem like i'm not alone in my thoughts re.the direction 'some' people/bands are heading in Bluegrass. We can't name specific singers/bands on here - rightly so,as it would be offensive & many other folk like that form of music - but much of the sort of stuff that i'm hearing, is being done by very well known artistes,one of whom,i've yet to hear anything by,that couldn't be classed as a 'slow drag'.
Enough said !. I've raised a point & many thanks to the folks that have replied. Bluegrass music is & will be,different for each person,but i do ask myself lots of times what Bill Monroe would have said on hearing this music & " that 'aint no part of nuthin' ",rings loud & clear,
Saska

Gutbucket

Sep-02-2008, 3:51pm

Hope it doesn't go the way of "New" Country. Boy is that stuff getting tedious. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

mandocaster

Sep-02-2008, 6:11pm

I understand the wish that BG music remain static through time. #I just don't think it ever has been. #There was plenty of "country" sounding Flatt and Scruggs, Osborne Brothers, Country Gentleman, Seldom Scene, Jim and Jesse, etc. etc.

It's nothing new. #I am extremely excited about many of the new bands. #Some more than others. If a genre can't grow it becomes a caricature of itself.

Jim Broyles

Sep-03-2008, 6:35am

Mitch, this is true. Much of the old bluegrass I find and listen to for my first time surprises me at how much it really is country music with banjos and mandolins. One of your examples, Jim & Jesse, has a lot of songs which sound more country than bluegrass.

MikeEdgerton

Sep-03-2008, 6:52am

The business in the early years and even now has always been to sell records (or CD's or electronic downloads). If one limits themselves to a narrow market they limit the number of sales. Jim and Jessie and all the rest of them understood that.

Dan Margolis

Sep-03-2008, 7:09am

To me it always boils down to the tunes. If the songs are great (assuming they're well-played) I don't care if they're old or new. This is true for me in various genres, not just BG. I recently bought the best of Jim and Jesse (who I did hear live a time or three), and I was delighted to hear some honky-tonk C&W with steel and twangy guitar.

Pen

Sep-03-2008, 7:36am

Unlike many of you, I happen to like the "new" bluegrass. I also like the older & traditional bluegrass. I think I'd be bored with bluegrass if it hadn't changed over the years.

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-03-2008, 1:46pm

There's no problem with Bluegrass 'changing' provided it STAYS Bluegrass !!.The big problem that i have,is in hearing songs which do not,in any way, shape or form belong in Bluegrass. I have to admit that i AM a 'purist' in this,but it was only because Bill Monroe himself, refused to give in to commercial 'sounds' that Bluegrass went it & came out the other side of the Rock & Roll era intact & remains the music that we know today.
When i hear outright C & W style songs being done as Bluegrass,i get the strong impression that the artiste(s) don't give a hoot as long as they get a sale. OK - they have to eat,no problem with that,but other bands manage ok without giving way to performing what i can only classify as 'musical dross'. Strong words for a strong feeling that if we're not careful,'Trad.Bluegrass' is on a rocky road to nowhere - just my honest opinion. Keep C & W out of Bluegrass,it already has it's own market,keep it there,
Saska

mandolirius

Sep-03-2008, 2:00pm

<Keep C & W out of Bluegrass,it already has it's own market,keep it there,
Saska>

There is no longer such a thing as Country & Western...hasn't been for years. Performers don't call themselves that, radio stations don't indentify themselves that way. The "western" is gone. It's just country now.

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-03-2008, 2:24pm

Whatever you wish to call the 'non-bluegrass' stuff,keep THAT out of Bluegrass as well,it's not needed. The 'other market' whatever it wishes to call itself,can keep it's own fans happy,
Saska

mandolirius

Sep-03-2008, 3:06pm

<Whatever you wish to call the 'non-bluegrass' stuff,keep THAT out of Bluegrass as well,it's not needed.>

It's not a question of what I wish to call it, it's what it calls itself and how it is generally referred to. "Country & Western" was an record industry tag, like rhythm & blues, which is also no longer used. That form of country is long gone and neither the record industry, nor the promoters and performers of the music call it that. I'm not trying to be an advocate. I really can't stand country music. But you should know that, in North America at least, Country & Western just isn't a label that's used anymore. It would be wildly inaccurate as a description of today's country music.

Regardless, I don't think it's possible to erect the kind of walls you seem to want. I like the traditional sound of bluegrass but I know, like any other kind of music, bluegrass will mingle and cross-pollinate with other styles. It doesn't bother me because:

a) I'm free to listen to what I like
b) I believe tradional bluegrass is a strong form that will continue, no matter what
else is being done under the "bluegrass" banner".

You really can't dictate what's going to happen in music. You just take what you like and leave the rest.

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-04-2008, 2:16am

Hi Michael - I didn't mean what 'you, personally' called it & i apologise for the inference.I agree with the points that you've raised & you are of course correct.It still doesn't get around the fact that there's a lot of stuff being recorded under the Bluegrass banner that has no right to be there. I listen to Bluegrassradio.org every day for hours, & what i'm hearing,if it's representative of what's being recorded,is more & more of what were 'once called' shall we say,C & W style songs. Of course everone is free to listen to what the wish to,even if i don't like their music personally,i'd be the first person to defend their right,as i'd hope they'd defend my right to hear Bluegrass music on a Bluegrass recording & not this awful stuff i'm hearing such a lot of these days.
# All this is purely personal as to what we like or don't like. I just want Bluegrass music to stay on track & do what it does best,blow our socks off most of the time & the stuff i'm hearing just doesn't cut it for me,
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Saska

PS - I like ''I want to be in Allison's band'' - 1000 % better than the 'other stuff',at least it has humour in it.

MandoSquirrel

Sep-06-2008, 7:15pm

...It's nothing new. #I am extremely excited about many of the new bands. #Some more than others. If a genre can't grow it becomes a caricature of itself.

One of the biggest problems I see in "bluegrass" is just that, it HAS "become a caricature of itself."
It's hard to find much that's new & interesting, and good that follows from/builds on the genre.

Ivan Kelsall

Sep-07-2008, 3:14am

Makes you wonder how Bill Monroe managed to keep Bluegrass alive & flourishing & evolving & delighting audiences for over 40 years. Possible just another facet of his genius,
Saska

Bradley

Sep-07-2008, 6:22am

You know this is a great topic and a very sore subject since my style of playing was referred too recently as "too traditional". #

I cut my teeth on traditional Stanleys,Monroe, and the old school stuff. This will always define my playing and what I am as a Player. Now some of that newer Country influenced or contemporary stuff really doesnt bother me in the least and I like it when I hear them boys play 10,276 notes in a one break...especially Steffey as I think he really is the most influential Mandolin players in the last 10 years or so.I used to really be very non flexible about this topic,but have changed my mind over the past 2-3 years or so and heres why. Theres only so many times you can play "Little Cabin Home on the hill" and "blue Moon of Kentucky", and lets be honest do those songs really challenge our playing and furthermore extend the life of our music? Many times we get stuck in these songs because they have 3 chords that anyone can play, especially if they have a capo and a Martin D28.

As I have traveled the last couple of years around the region playing at the tender age of 40, I look around and see that I am usually one of the younger people in the crowd. So I ask "what are we going to do in the next 30 years to extend our music to the next generation". If we dont do something it will die.

By taking the approach of accepting this next generation and accepting what they like as an opportunity to maybe learn something from them and also make them feel part of the Bluegrass world, we stand a much better chance of telling them about Carters songs or the Harmony of the Louvin Brothers. If we just let them float you can believe that
their Nashvillian influences will be what they play. I can almost see "Toby Keith does the songs of Bill Monroe" coming down the road now.

"Lets think outside the box...but always remember where the box is" will be my approach. Let down that safety net and you may like it a little bit.

Dan Margolis

Sep-07-2008, 8:10am

I wouldn't be surprised if some fans of the old-time music of the day didn't like Monroe's bluegrass "innovations".

laddy jota

Sep-07-2008, 8:11am

My neighbor told me that he had a country band. When I asked him what kind of country they played, he said they sounded like the Eagles (a 70's rock band). Early country music was primarily reworked folk songs (Think Carter Family and Uncle Dave). Jimmie Rodgers borrowed from the blues in his compositions. Early bluegrass borrowed from early country and blues (Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys covered songs by the Carter Family, Jimmie Rodgers, and Monroe Brothers). This was the birth of Bluegrass - borrowing stuff. So, since bluegrass originated by borrowing from country, and since country borrows from rock n roll, in about 20 years bluegrass will probably sound like AC/DC. Oh wait a minute, have you heard Hayseed Dixie? It already does.

mandocaster

Sep-07-2008, 11:35am

I wish they would play more Grisman, Fleck, Bush, Tony Rice, Psychograss,etc. on XM satellite. Their website claims "newgrass" as one of the genres they play, but I never hear it. That stuff is my favorite, but I will settle for what they actually play. Traditional, really traditional, and trying its best to sound really traditional.

mandozilla

Sep-07-2008, 11:46pm

"...This was the birth of Bluegrass - borrowing stuff..."

I really don't have a problem with material from other genres played BG style. You can bolt the BG style fairly well to a lot of numbers from other genres. The problem I have is when bands dilute or stray from BG fundamentals when playing these other genre tunes and use arrangement that sound like country or rock or whatever, played with BG instruments. If you want to play country, or rock, or whatever, by all means do so but please don't call it Bluegrass Music. Just my 2 centavos. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

mrmando

Sep-08-2008, 4:21am

I think commercialism and slickness are like a disease that floats from genre to genre, infecting it with shallowness and glam.

In the seventies it infected disco.
This would seem to suggest that there was substantive and non-glamorous disco music, before shallowness and glam infected it.

I must hear some of this pre-infection disco music. What recordings would you recommend?

MikeEdgerton

Sep-08-2008, 6:45am

This would seem to suggest that there was substantive and non-glamorous disco music, before shallowness and glam infected it.
Warn me next time before you do that...

Stayin' alive, stayin' alive http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Chris "Bucket" Thomas

Sep-08-2008, 6:52am

What defines bluegrass, it also what limits it.

Think about it.........

Jim Broyles

Sep-08-2008, 7:52am

Well what does define it? Is "Tragic Romance" by the Stanley Brothers bluegrass? How about "Kentucky Waltz" by Bill Monroe?

Alex Orr

Sep-08-2008, 11:21am

Sometimes, it's hard to tell when it becomes something other than bluegrass. Then again, when AKUS have a piano, congas, drums, and no banjo or mandolin on a song (as they often do), then it is NOT bluegrass.

Barb Friedland

Sep-08-2008, 11:57am

Interesting conversation... Look at any musical genre and you will find that it tends to evolve and diversify over time. That's probably because artists find the need to push the envelope and grow musically. I see nothing at all wrong with using bluegrass instruments in new and interesting ways and to my way of thinking ballads are a significant part of the BG tradition. Aren't we all lucky that we have the freedom to each listen to and play what we prefer. Personally I find Stringdusters and Cadillac Sky to be pretty amazing. By the way, I'm listening to Bluegrass Radio (admittedly for the first time because I usually listen to Mandozine Radio) and so far everything I've heard falls into my fairly open definition of BG.

JeffD

Sep-08-2008, 12:24pm

I have to admit that i AM a 'purist' in this,but it was only because Bill Monroe himself, refused to give in to commercial 'sounds' that Bluegrass went it & came out the other side of the Rock & Roll era intact & remains the music that we know today.
Is that really true? I call on the Monroe experts to help me with this - but it is my impression that Bill incorporated more and more blues progressions and riffs, things that were not much in his early music and which seems to predominate his later stuff.

Even after "inventing" bluegrass, he was an innovator, and I can only think that his incorporation of blues was in response to the greater musical world around him. Probably two reasons:

1 - he dug it
2 - it would make his music more popular

laddy jota

Sep-08-2008, 12:52pm

I recall an interview with George Thoroughgood in which the interviewer asked him why he did not write any of his own material. He said it was because Chuck Berry had already written all the good songs. The moral is that they can't take the old stuff away from us no matter what they do with the new stuff. If we all just listen to what we like, nobody should be inconvenienced.

Mike Bunting

Sep-08-2008, 12:58pm

[QUOTE]
Quote (saska @ Sep. 03 2008, 15:46)
I have to admit that i AM a 'purist' in this,but it was only because Bill Monroe himself, refused to give in to commercial 'sounds' that Bluegrass went it & came out the other side of the Rock & Roll era intact & remains the music that we know today.

Is that really true? I call on the Monroe experts to help me with this - but it is my impression that Bill incorporated more and more blues progressions and riffs, things that were not much in his early music and which seems to predominate his later stuff.

Even after "inventing" bluegrass, he was an innovator, and I can only think that his incorporation of blues was in response to the greater musical world around him.

The music he heard as a child was already infused with the blues, he speaks of hearing the black railway men singing during the era when the railway was moving into Kentucky to serve the coal industry. Save for a couple of lame attempts by producers to put electric guitars etc. on a few recordings in the 50's, Monroe resisted attempts to commercialize his music. It seems to me that changes to his music came as a result of his own personal musical growth.
I went and listened to one cut by Cadillac Sky and to me it sounded like any anonymous country-pop-rock band vocals set to acoustic instrumentation, but that was only one cut so....
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bluegrass purist but am a good music purist with my own standards (that I've given some consideration to) and enjoy much modern music, just not much of the pop, commercial type, I don't begrudge any of them making money but its not what I like to listen to.

MandoSquirrel

Sep-08-2008, 6:46pm

[QUOTE]
Quote (saska @ Sep. 03 2008, 15:46)
it sounded like any anonymous country-pop-rock band vocals set to acoustic instrumentation, but that was only one cut so....
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bluegrass purist but am a good music purist with my own standards (that I've given some consideration to) and enjoy much modern music, just not much of the pop, commercial type, I don't begrudge any of them making money but its not what I like to listen to.
This is more or less my view. I love a broad spectrum of music, but not much "Pop"/commercial stuff. I love Good bluegrass, "Dawg" music, Blues, & "Roots" music; & the older Counry "Ballad" type music mentioned in the OP, I just don't like mediocre, boring, or modern Nashville type fluff. Most of the Contemporary "Bluegrass" I'm exposed to fits more into the latter, rather than the "Quality" mold.

allenhopkins

Sep-08-2008, 7:15pm

The music he heard as a child was already infused with the blues, he speaks of hearing the black railway men singing during the era when the railway was moving into Kentucky to serve the coal industry. Save for a couple of lame attempts by producers to put electric guitars etc. on a few recordings in the 50's, Monroe resisted attempts to commercialize his music. It seems to me that changes to his music came as a result of his own personal musical growth.
Couple points from my perspective:

1] Monroe played commercial country music -- in his own style. #He broke away from the "brother duet" music he did with Charlie, which he had already speeded up and "bluesed" a bit (compare the Monroe Brothers to the Blue Sky Boys, Karl & Harty, other early duets). #Bill was very concerned (as any full-time musician would be) about commercial success. #His traveling shows included performers in a variety of styles. #He was stubborn enough to stick to bluegrass when bluegrass was less popular, but he was always able to make a living at it, always retained on the Opry, always with a major-label record contract, always more of a "star" (except for a brief period in the '60's when Flatt & Scruggs eclipsed him) than his bluegrass competitors who incorporated more overt non-bluegrass influences into their music.

2] #Monroe talked at length about his early musical collaborations with African-American musician Arnold Shultz: Bill Monroe's earliest paid music work was thanks to Shultz, who asked Bill to "second him" on guitar when he fiddled for square dances. #Bill was thrilled by the invitation -- and proud of his stamina when the sun came up and they would still be playing.* #So blues influences entered his music, not later in his career, but from the very beginning.

3] #I think one of the changes in bluegrass music that some posters don't like, is really due to its persistence and acceptance. #Quite a few country "stars" have acknowledged bluegrass by recording albums with bluegrass influences. # There has been a bit of a blurring of the lines between bluegrass and "the rest of the world," and we can look at Oh Brother Where Art Thou and Alison Krauss and the Dixie Chicks and such like, as examples. #But is this so new? #What about bluegrass bands 30 years ago picking up Fox On the Run from Manfred Mann, or Country Roads from John Denver, or Red Rubber Ball from Paul Simon and the Cyrkle?

I can understand the wish for "purity," but are we really in favor of bluegrass becoming completely a "niche" music, with homogenous audiences (aging ones, too, I might add). and no cross-pollination with other styles? #Something like Dixieland jazz, polka, drum & bugle corps? #Look at the styles that in recent years have busted out of their niches, recruited many new adherents and practitioners, and expanded boundaries by accepting influences from other styles -- Celtic, klezmer, reggae. #I want to see a bunch of excited kids in their 20's learning how to play bluegrass, and building on a foundation that was started 70 years ago.

*Richard Smith, Can't You Hear Me Callin': The Life Of Bill Monroe, p. 24

Mike Bunting

Sep-08-2008, 7:37pm

Yes, I wouldn't disagree with any of your comments, I only spoke of what I like to listen to.
With respect to Country Roads, I hated it the and hate it now sung in any style. It fits my profile of manipulative pap.

mandolirius

Sep-08-2008, 8:21pm

<With respect to Country Roads, I hated it the and hate it now sung in any style. It fits my profile of manipulative pap.>

That's interesting, Mike. I just listened to it and I couldn't help but be struck by how similar the lyrics/story of the song was very similar to many traditional bluegrass songs. I wonder what it would have sounded like if it had been done by Monroe or The Stanley Brothers?

Mike Bunting

Sep-08-2008, 9:07pm

Monroe and/or the Stanley's would have been singing or writing the song from their own experience. Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr. was an army brat, born in Roswell N.M., not a country boy from West Virginia and the song didn't make me think that he was. Of course you may take all my ramblings with a grain of salt, these are all subjective opinions and we all know about opinions.

mandolirius

Sep-08-2008, 9:26pm

<Monroe and/or the Stanley's would have been singing or writing the song from their own experience. Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr. was an army brat, born in Roswell N.M., not a country boy from West Virginia and the song didn't make me think that he was. Of course you may take all my ramblings with a grain of salt, these are all subjective opinions and we all know about opinions.>

Well, opinions are what makes the world go round. Imagine a world without them. But there is a point in your "ramblings" and that's the question of whether a song is more authentic or carries more weight if the singer has "lived the song". I would think that's a pretty heavy limitation to place on songwriters, singers etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no big fan of John Denver but lately I have been thinking about grassing up "Country Roads" and trying it on for size at a band practice. I think, freed of Denver's somewhat sappy delivery and the commercial production, it might not be a bad bluegrass tune. One thing's for sure, people know the song and that's one of the things people tell me when I ask them why they don't like bluegrass...they don't recognize any of the songs.

Mike Bunting

Sep-08-2008, 10:01pm

[QUOTE]the song didn't make me think that he was,
I guess that would be my criterion, but yes, I place pretty high standards on songwriters. My triumvirate, Dylan, Cohen, Van Zandt.
And who knows, you might do a version that changes my mind totally!

mandolirius

Sep-08-2008, 10:20pm

When I think about "living the song", I think of Stan Rogers. He wrote some of the greatest songs about the Canadian maritime provinces ever - songs like "Make & Break Harbour", "The Mary Ellen Carter", "The Sinking of the Jeannie C." (I still think I won the saddest song ever thread with that one) "Fogerty's Cove" and lots more.

Stan was from Ontario and never fished a day in his life. But watching the documentary about him and see what his songs meant to those Newfoundland fishermen really made me respect the power of song. These guys, as hard men as there ever were and not given to a lot of talk, would talk. About Stan and his music. There were many "lump in the throat" moments.

The doc is called "One Warm Line" and was originally produced by the CBC. Also, some of the best footage of small fishing boats battling the rough North Atlantic as you'll ever see. Watching the huge waves sweep over those little boats, and seeing those boats disappear into the waves, then come rocketing back out, their bows at about a 30 degree angle was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. A confirmed landlubber, it would be no life for me. But I can listen to Stan Rogers sing about a life he never lived and feel is as sure as if I were on one of those boats getting tossed around by the mighty ocean.

man dough nollij

Sep-08-2008, 10:35pm

allenhopkins

Sep-08-2008, 11:20pm

Monroe and/or the Stanley's would have been singing or writing the song from their own experience. Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr. was an army brat, born in Roswell N.M., not a country boy from West Virginia and the song didn't make me think that he was.
And he didn't write Country Roads. #Written by Bill Danoff & Taffy Nivert. #Danoff graduated from Georgetown with a degree in Chinese, and became a late-'60's folk singer, teamed up with Nivert in a duo called Fat City, played clubs alongside Denver and gave him the song. #They also wrote another Denver hit, Guess He'd Rather Be In Colorado. Danoff and Nivert then formed Starland Vocal Band, recorded Afternoon Delights which won a Grammy, even had a short-run network TV show. #Danoff's still hard at work; here's his website. # (http://www.billdanoff.com/)

So, can you write/sing about drinkin' moonshine up in the holler just before you murder your faithless girlfriend, get gunned down by the sheriff, and hope to meet your mother and dad in Heaven -- if you're a college grad from New Haven with a MA in social work and a house in White Plains? # Well, yes you can, and I would be the last to yell "inauthentic!" #It's the content of the song, not the bio of the singer (or writer), that reaches the brain and the heart.

mandozilla

Sep-09-2008, 12:08am

Mandolirious said:

" # Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr. was an army brat, born in Roswell N.M., not a country boy from West Virginia and the song didn't make me think that he was..."

Bill never went very far west of the Mississippi but it did'nt stop him from singing about cowboys (Goodbye Old Pal.)

And while it is true that BG artists in the 60's and 70's like the Country Gentlemen most notably, drew upon material outside the genre, it still sounded like BG. Some of the newer stuff, Newgrass and others on down today are sometimes unrecognizable as BG music IMHO and that's ok for fans of those styles but I'll keep mine traditional thank you very much.

And, Bill might have been compelled to use instruments other than what he was ordinarily known for in the studio, I don't believe he ever took that stuff on the road with him. I was fortunate to see Bill live several times in the 70's, and he carried the straight 5 BG instruments and nothing more every time. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Mike Bunting

Sep-09-2008, 12:13am

You'll note the qualifier a couple of posts ago, Denver didn't make me believe he was from W.V. I think the great singer can do that.

mrmando

Sep-09-2008, 12:26am

Methinks all healthy forms of music have traditionalist camps and innovator camps. If all you have are traditionalists, the music will soon stagnate. If all you have are innovators, then you're probably looking at a new form of music that isn't yet stable enough to attract a fan base large enough to sustain it. As long as you have both, the music can remain viable.

mandolirius

Sep-09-2008, 12:31am

Mandolirious said:

" Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr. was an army brat, born in Roswell N.M., not a country boy from West Virginia and the song didn't make me think that he was..."

Actually I DIDN'T say that.

Mike B. did.

Personally, I don't care where people are from (see my post about the great Stan Rogers above).

MikeEdgerton

Sep-09-2008, 6:40am

When I think about "living the song", I think of Stan Rogers....Stan was from Ontario and never fished a day in his life...
You need to listen to "Tiny fish for Japan". That might be the ultimate Stan Rogers fishing song.

Stan Rogers has been a hero of mine since well before he left us. An amazing talent.

AlanN

Sep-09-2008, 6:55am

< but lately I have been thinking about grassing up "Country Roads" and trying it on for size at a band practice.

One thing's for sure, people know the song and that's one of the things people tell me when I ask them why they don't like bluegrass...they don't recognize any of the songs.
Not to rain on your parade, but the CG (who else?) covered this in the Lawson/Yates era, but you're right, it makes for a fine grass number. And I agree with you - the masses want familiar tunes they can remember. I mean, how can 'hot corn/cold corn, bring along the jimmy john' really mean anything? lol.

And to the Stan Rogers talk, I used to play with a guy David Brahinsky who was very fond of Stan and sang the Tiny Fishes song, also one about a hotel (where Stan likely never stayed...).

Wolfboy

Sep-10-2008, 9:46am

And he didn't write Country Roads. #Written by Bill Danoff & Taffy Nivert. #Danoff graduated from Georgetown with a degree in Chinese, and became a late-'60's folk singer, teamed up with Nivert in a duo called Fat City, played clubs alongside Denver and gave him the song.

Half right...Danoff and Nivert had written the first verse and chorus when they played the song for Denver backstage at the Cellar Door in DC. Denver wrote the second verse and bridge and the three of them shared writer credit (and royalties). Danoff and Nivert offered to take half for the two of them and give Denver half, but Denver insisted on an equal three-way split. My source: Tom Paxton, who knew John Denver pretty well.

Getting back to the question of the necessity for a songwriter to write from experience: I have enough faith in human imagination to assume it's not necessarily obligatory for a songwriter (or novelist, playwright, etc.) to personally experience that which he/she writes about...at least I hope so, in the case of murder ballads... :)

Alex Orr

Sep-10-2008, 10:36am

It's funnny. I don't really care for "Country Roads" when I hear John Denver's version, but inevitably if someone plays it onstage at a bar or at aparty, then I'm singin' along and smilin'. :)

mandolirius

Sep-10-2008, 2:05pm

You need to listen to "Tiny fish for Japan". That might be the ultimate Stan Rogers fishing song.

Stan Rogers has been a hero of mine since well before he left us. An amazing talent.

Same here, and of course I've heard "Tiny Fishes". I think it may be his most overtly-political song about fishing. I like it but it's not my favourite. I think I'd pick "Make & Break Harbour". As for my very favourites, I'd probably go with the acapella stuff - "Barrett's Privateers" and "Northwest Passage".

mandolirius

Sep-10-2008, 2:10pm

Not to rain on your parade, but the CG (who else?) covered this in the Lawson/Yates era, but you're right, it makes for a fine grass number. And I agree with you - the masses want familiar tunes they can remember. I mean, how can 'hot corn/cold corn, bring along the jimmy john' really mean anything? lol.

And to the Stan Rogers talk, I used to play with a guy David Brahinsky who was very fond of Stan and sang the Tiny Fishes song, also one about a hotel (where Stan likely never stayed...).

I recall hearing that, although I don't have it. I never imagined I'd be the first to do it bluegrass style.

I know a guy who sounded so much like Stan and knew all his stuff that he got asked to do Stan Rogers tribute shows. I played one with him. It was as close as you could come to acutally being in Stan's band.