Oval soundholes and sustain.

[desaljs]

I was reading another post here, and a comment was made about sustain and oval soundholes. I have 2 Eastmans, one an F Style 615, with F holes, and the other an A Style, oval hole 504. I just received the oval hole a few days ago, and noticed the sustain right away.

These are the first real mandos that I own, so I was curious if this sustain is a big part of oval soundhole mandos.

[first string]

yes.

[Celtic Saguaro]

Yep, F-holed mandolins were specifical designed to increase volume compared to similar oval-holed mandolins. One of the trade-offs is a noticeable reduction in sustain.

[Michael Wolf]

I think builders often have cutomers that want a specific bluegrass tone in a f-hole mando and they build them like this. But they can be built with very good sustain. Ovals have sustain by nature, that seems to be right.
I also think that f-hole design doesn't only increase volume, it produces a different tonal quality.

[Mr. Loar]

I was told that "F" holes are for Bluegrass and Ovals are for Olde Tyme music.

[Fretbear]

I also think that f-hole design doesn't only increase volume, it produces a different tonal quality.
I don't even consider them to be the same instrument...

[Capt. E]

My vintage Japanese built A style with f holes has much better sustain than my Weber Bighorn. I'm not sure it is the f holes as much as significant differences in top bracing (x bracing vs tone bars). They also have rather different tone, perhaps due to the Jap built having a mahongany body and the Weber maple. I am often amazed how small differences can have a big effect. Even the type and weight of pick can "change" the sound. You get different sounds even within the same maker's model..

[Rick Schmidlin]

I was told that "F" holes are for Bluegrass and Ovals are for Olde Tyme music.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Santiago]

I don't have much experience with oval holes (on mandos at least) as my one mandolin has f holes, but I was in Burlington,Vermont recently and stopped in a very nice shop on the Church Street mall and played a nice Eastman 614. I didn't have a pick with me as I live 300 miles away, and even finger picking the difference was startling. When I get the opportunity to step up, I'm sure my next mandolin will have an oval hole, unless I suddenly get smitten by bluegrass.

[allenhopkins]

I don't think it's just the shape of the sound holes that makes the difference; most f-hole mandolins have either "X" or tone-bar bracing, while many of the older Gibson round-hole (actually, oval-hole) A-models had a single transverse brace below the sound hole.

You can hear the difference between a round-hole, X-braced guitar, and a carved-top, f-hole, jazz guitar. #Likely a similar contrast between the "ringy," long sustain of the round-hole, and the percussive, loud, quick-decay sound of the arch-top. #Not a perfect analogy, since the round-hole mandolins we compare often have carved arched tops, similar in general configuration to the f-hole models. #Still, suggestive.

Another variable in the mix is how the different instruments are played. #Percussive "chop" chords, quickly dampened by relaxing the fingers, are characteristic of bluegrass mandolin playing, usually on an f-hole model. #More sustained open chords, and melody lines played without damping -- as well as styles other than bluegrass -- often are featured by those playing the round-holes.

Enough exceptions, as noted above, to make the dichotomy useful but not universal. #Many other variables enter into the equation. #Individual instruments of the same design vary significantly in volume, length of sustain, and tonal qualities. #Still, not a bad rule of thumb.

[Alex Fields]

I was told that "F" holes are for Bluegrass and Ovals are for Olde Tyme music.
Funny, because I play some old time but no bluegrass, and my only mandolin has f-holes. I can see why an oval instrument might be a little better suited to the genre, but for me at least it doesn't justify buying a second instrument. I find ways to make the f-hole instrument fit in whatever genre I play.

[Mike Snyder]

There ya go Alex, play what you got, give it he## and have fun.

[fishdawg40]

To answer the OP's question yes. I just got a Old Wave and the sustain is unreal, along with the bass response. I love it. Ovals are for me. But I do see the value in a well balanced F hole mando. Especially to get that real high, lonesome Monroe tone.

[oldtimestrings]

You can hear the difference between a round-hole, X-braced guitar, and a carved-top, f-hole, jazz guitar.
Well, sure, but there you're talking about more than just differences in top holes and bracing. The round hole guitar has a flat top, which probably makes a bigger difference than any other factor. Totally different kind of bridge setup, too.

Seems like most round/oval hole mandolins have a similar setup to the f-hole ones, except for the hole itself and probably the bracing (Mid-Mos, Flatirons, and other flattops notwithstanding). In other words, they have arched tops and backs, similar bridge configurations, and usually the same kind of tonewoods. I wonder if two mandolins with identical build and setup but with the only major structural difference being round-hole vs. f-holes would really be that different in terms of sustain. There are probably builders here who could shed some light on this from their experiences.

[phiddlepicker]

I could never decide between the two constructs, so I got both.

[Gene Justin]

You can get pleasing sustain on an f-hole mandolin ... if its bottom and sides are built from mahogany. I've owned only solid-wood, flat-backs (with maple and rosewood back and sides) until recently - when I purchased a f-hole, mahogany, arched mandolin. It has nice sustain and good volume too. I cannot do it justice with words. After playing with an arched mando for a very short time, the flat-backs I've known no longer get the attention they deserve; they're good mandolins. There is something in the tone missing from the flat-backs ... now.

[JeffD]

I was told that "F" holes are for Bluegrass and Ovals are for Olde Tyme music.
There are folks that proclaim rules like this - I take it all kind of loosie gooosie. Hardcore BGers prefer the F holes, partly because Monroe used one, and partly because they do produce a better chop.

I have heard more F hole mandolins in OT than oval holes in BG. That just might be a difference between the OT police and the BG police. (I'm kidding, its because of the better chop of the F hole, which is highly prized in BG and generally eschewed in OT.)

All that being said, I can see that in modern times it is reasonable to expect that an F hole mandolin is going to see more BG use than an oval, and sustain is a quality more prized in OT - lack of sustain more prized in BG. It is conceivable that a luthier would make the mandolin more likely to be in BG have, in addition to F holes, less sustain.

[Dave Cohen]

There are so many misconceptions about sustain. #I won't go into great detail about the differences in sustain between oval hole mandolins and f-hole mandolins. #Suffice it to say that both types have relatively short sustain compared to guitars. #That is due in part to the very short scale length, i.e., not much more that half of the typical scale lengths found in guitars. #Also, that part applies to f-hole archtop mandolins, oval hole archtop mandolins, (nearly) flat-top mandolins, and Neapolitans alike.

Sustain in plucked stringed instruments is best described in terms of the decay of plucked strings. #An ideal string on completely rigid supports in a vacuum would in principle vibrate forever, i.e., no decay. #In the world in which we live, strings decay due to losses of the energy supplied to them by the pluck. #There are three main types of losses: (i) viscous losses, (ii) internal losses, and (iii) losses to other coupled vibrating objects. #Viscous losses are due to the friction of strings moving through air. #I had assumed that there wasn't much that string makers could do about viscous losses. #Fan Tao, of D'Addario Strings, gave a talk at the GAL (Guild of American Luthiers) convention in June, and told me that D'Addario is doing work on reducing viscous losses in strings. #Anyhow, viscous losses are common to all strings. #Internal losses are a function of the string material, and are the main loss mechanism in nylon and gut strings. #The third loss mechanism, i.e., losses to motion of other vibrating systems, is the only one that luthiers can do anything about, since the "other vibrating systems", are principally the body of the instrument. #It turns out, though, that the luthier can't do as much as is implied in this thread. #This is the main contribution to losses in mandolin strings, guitar strings, etc. #Basically, the body of an instrument vibrates at and around its modal frequencies. #The body of the instrument vibrates in patterns and shapes called "normal modes". #Each mode has its' own characteristic peak frequency and bandwith. #When string mode frequencies are close to those body mode frequencies, the body motion will "steal" energy from the string and the string motion will decay as a result. #There goes the sustain. #Anyway, the body motion frequencies do depend on the type of mandolin. #In Neapolitan mandolins, nothing happens in the body until about 500 Hz. #Above that, the modes are fairly densely spaced. #So starting at the 196 Hz G and up to about the open A (440 Hz), the sustain on a Neapolitan mandolin is fairly long, i.e., the decay is slow. #Above 500 Hz, the characteristic decay times are much shorter, i.e., by about a factor of ten in the few Neapolitans that I looked at. #In f-hole and oval hole mandolins, the body starts moving at much lower frequencies, but there are some frequency gaps in which not much is happening in the body. #In the gaps, the characteristic decay times are longer, whereas near and at the body mode frequencies, the decay times are shorter, i.e., by as much as a factor of 3 or 4. #The body mode frequencies are characteristic of the instrument type, and there isn't that much that a luthier can do. #Both f-hole and oval hole archtop mandolins have body modes at frequencies over most of the playing range of the instrument.

String decay times also depend on how a string is plucked. #Primarily horizontal motion (i.e., a flatpick moved back and forth across a string) results in a longer characteristic decay time than does a vertical displacement of a string (i.e., as in a fingerpicked guitar). #Of course, real-world flatpicking and fingerpicking are not ideal, so they result in a combination of vertical and horizontal motion. #That results in a compound decay curve. #A flatpick probably rolls over the string some, also resulting in a combination of vertical and horizontal motion.

What starts me on something like this is claims of "incredible sustain". #If you were to actually measure characteristic decay times, you would find that mandolins don't differ dramatically from each other. #Back in 1983, the physicist J. Meyer published a couple of papers on quality aspects of (classical) guitar tone related to observable physical parameters. #He found that all classical guitar players professed to wanting excellent sustain. #Indeed, they wanted more sustain than in existing guitars. #Yet the guitars judged by those same players to be of highest quality all had the quickest decay, i.e., the least sustain. #If you think about that, maybe you don't really want "incredible sustain" in your mandolin.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[allenhopkins]

Another thought with regard to sustain: doesn't the term apply mainly to open/unfretted strings? #Once your finger leaves the fret, to move to another fret on the same string or to #different string, the vibrating length of the string is changed, therefore the frequency at which it is vibrating, and the note you picked "dies."

Sustain has been a major topic of discussion with solid-body electric guitars, where picked and "held" notes are much more of an issue in the music styles in which they are played. #However, with electric guitars, the amplification system can be modified to affect the length for which notes "sustain." #Mandolin players generally don't want notes to ring for several seconds; that effect may be achieved by tremolo, and most of the music styles discussed here involve a fairly rapid series of differentiated notes. #No one listens to Raw Hide for the sustain.

The question that's being discussed as "sustain" is possibly more about the timbre of the picked notes immediately after they are struck, or the tonal qualities of the attack, rather than how long an unfretted string would ring after being struck. #At least that's another perspective, valid or not.

[Stephen Lind]

#Back in 1983, the physicist J. Meyer published a couple of papers on quality aspects of (classical) guitar tone related to observable physical parameters. #He found that all classical guitar players professed to wanting excellent sustain. #Indeed, they wanted more sustain than in existing guitars. #Yet the guitars judged by those same players to be of highest quality all had the quickest decay, i.e., the least sustain. #If you think about that, maybe you don't really want "incredible sustain" in your mandolin.

http://www.Cohenmando.com
ahhh...
balance
that fundamental and elusive quality

great post


now that we got that squared away
can any one point me to a mandolin on which the notes bloom? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[mandocrucian]

Vibrato enhances sustain, by exciting the harmonics so they decay slower than the fundamental. #As the fundamental decays and those harmonics begin to shine through (because of the now different decay rate), that's when you get a "singing 'tone'".

You can also have a unison, or octave, or 5th , either open, or intentionally fretted (but not played) to add sympathetic vibration, giving a slightly fatter sound, and the illusion of more sustain on the plucked note strings. But the ear will hear the faint sympathetic string vibrations as part of the "note", and the composite of the two (or three) amounts to more sustain.

NH

[PhilGE]

I knew sustainability was growing in popularity these days, but... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[desaljs]

I posted this question. Thanks for the excellent information in this thread. I enjoy having 2 different types of mandolin to play, and try to take advantage of what each has to offer.

[first string]

I've always followed the discussions of sustain avidly. And I think there is a lot of value to be found here and in the previous threads. However there does seem to be a tendency for people to tell the questioner that they don't really want sustain--that it is not an attribute that is to be desired. But everyone's playing style is different, and I have to heartily disagree with them. I think sustain can be a real asset.

I also have to differ with those who say that sustain doesn't vary noticeably from instrument to instrument. My experience simply doesn't bear that out.