Used price mystery

[mandocaster]

I am generally mystified by ads (in the classifieds, ebay, and elsewhere) where people attempt to sell used things for new prices. My father in law does this a lot. He buys a shotgun for $900, keeps it for a couple of years, takes it hunting once or twice, and then attempts to sell it for $900. He says, "It looks like new, except for that ding on the stock". Even if it were in absolute mint condition, why wouldn't someone just go to the store and buy a new one? I know there are a few particular cases where there is a long waiting period for a desireable item, or of course vintage stuff, where it makes sense.

I worked in a used camera store for years. The rule we used was that, except in very rare cases, the most we could price something, assuming it was mint or very nearly, was 80% of new discount mail order retail. Sometimes stores will sell a slightly shop worn new item for 90% of retail, but the customer has the store, as well as the manufacturer as support in case there is a problem.

Some folks that do this probably figure that folks will make an offer, but are hopeful that someone will pay their asking price. It makes me wonder about their acuity.

This is just something that makes me go hmmm

It doesn't keep me up at night.

[Monrovia]

I am generally mystified by ads (in the classifieds, ebay, and elsewhere) where people attempt to sell used things for new prices. #
It does seem odd, but then again, in the case of eBay at least, people sometimes do pay more for a used item than they could get if for new. #I think that part of the answer is that many people pay full retail price for new items, presumably because they don't know how to use the internet to find good deals. #To them, a used sale price that is the same as you could get it new is less than they could get it new.

[fredfrank]

I'm just guessing, but maybe people figure if the new price of the item has gone up, then the new price from a couple of years ago will sound like a bargain.

Let's say you buy a mandolin for $7,000 this year. You play it two or three years and take real good care of it. Then, you look at the same model and the price on these is now $10,000. 7K doesn't seem too bad for a nice example now.

I've never been able to get those kind of things to work out, but maybe I'm dealing with a higher level of intelligent buyer. I probably ought to just keep my stuff, and buy more!

[MikeEdgerton]

The good news is that you don't have to buy it, you can simply ignore the ad and move on. I've never seen anyone hold a gun to a buyers head and make them buy something in a classified ad.

[fishdawg40]

The good news is that you don't have to buy it, you can simply ignore the ad and move on. I've never seen anyone hold a gun to a buyers head and make them buy something in a classified ad.
But you are allowed to discuss such matters.

[MikeEdgerton]

But you are allowed to discuss such matters.
Of course as long as it doesn't get crazy, why not? When it ceases to be a productive conversation it will either die or be killed.

[jim_n_virginia]

big difference between a shotgun and a mandolin. You are not taking into consideration that a mandolin's value can go up whereas a shotgun unless it belonged to Doc Holliday the value will go down.

And actually that value of anything is always determined by the market. If it is too high no one will buy it.

And like Mike says if something is tooo high pass it on by, sooner or later the seller will get the message.

What kills me is all the people who will pay MORE for something used when they could have bought something for much less! It is because they didn't do their research.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[allenhopkins]

I'm still looking for the fine line between "used" (cheaper than "new"), and "vintage" (sold at a premium, more expensive than "new"). #I see 20-year-old Asian import instruments on eBay listed as "antique" or "vintage" and offered for higher prices than similar new ones. #I chuckle at the idea, but maybe I'm being snobbish...?

I'm sure my mid-'50's F-5 will bring a higher dollar price, even adjusted for inflation, than it sold for 50 years ago. #(Well, maybe I'm not sure...) #The Eastman mandola I bought new in 2006, not so much. #Is the F-5 "vintage"? #is the Eastman just "used"? #In 2026, will the Eastman be "vintage"? (I know I will be!)

Words like this get thrown around until they're close to meaningless. #I understand that to get a "vintage" auto license plate, a car must be 20 years old or more. #But a 1988 Kentucky A-model -- is that "vintage"? #Or just "used"? #I have a pair of boots I bought in 1973, but would hesitate to call "vintage." #(And don't ask me why I'm hanging on to a pair of 1965-issue GI combat boots that sit next to them.) #Disco suits from the '70's hang in "vintage" clothing shops, but a coffee table from the same year is just "used."

Of course it must vary, category by category, so let's make it mandolin-specific. #When does my otherwise ordinary instrument -- let's say a Flatiron pancake made in 1985 (not that I have one) -- become "vintage"? #Does the fact that the Flatiron Co. has been absorbed, and that this particular model is no longer made, make a difference? #Should one expect to pay more or less than the original selling price, adjusted for inflation?

I've bought instruments that were all over the lot, in terms of relationship of current price to the original, adjusted-for-inflation price, and I don't discern a clear pattern. #Any thoughts?

[Links]

[QUOTE]The good news is that you don't have to buy it, you can simply ignore the ad and move on. I've never seen anyone hold a gun to a buyers head and make them buy something in a classified ad.

Mike #- #that happens all the time. #I was at outside a guitar show in a major metropolitan city a couple of years ago walking down a dark alley. #A guy jumps out from behind a trash can, pulled a 9mm Beretta, and flashed a small classified ad for a used mandolin (Pomeroy F model). #He made me write a check on the spot and followed me to the post office where he made me address an envelope and drop it down the mail shute. #At least the mandolin actually came UPS a few days later.

That's my story and my wife still believes it. #So don't say it doesn't happen!

[Eddie Sheehy]

If anyone would like to sell me a 1910 Martin A mandolin for the original retail price I might spring for it - if they pay the shipping of course...

[mandocaster]

The good news is that you don't have to buy it, you can simply ignore the ad and move on. I've never seen anyone hold a gun to a buyers head and make them buy something in a classified ad.
Yikes. #I hope I didn't hit a sore spot.

"die or be killed."
sounds like a horror movie

[Eddie Sheehy]

I tend to buy "used" (50%-80%) of the new price. When I sell or trade I expect 50% - 80% of the new price.... Only the original owner loses out on depreciation, just like with a car, as long as the item is kept in excellent condition - which I do. Of course, if the original owner hangs on to it long enough, and it's a "rare" item, then everyone's a winner. Sometimes I buy for more than something is worth, or it has hidden flaws which I don't detect in time. Then I move it on at a loss. Once I find a flaw, it becomes disclosable to the next person - do unto others etc. My biggest losses are shipping and handling - never recoverable and mostly underestimated when I quote them. But yes, I too have seen a "used" item in the classifieds at almost the new price. That's just not for me. But others might feel differently...
I tend to trade more than sell in the classifieds, a trend I'm trying to reverse now that my MAS has reached CRITICAL!

[mandocaster]

I think that the vast majority of people engaging in this behavior are inexperienced sellers. They not attempting "sharp" practices. It is certainly not a crime to be an inexperienced seller.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Then I guess you ain't mystified no more Mitch.....end of thread.
Or is that just lawyer-talk? - Sorry, couldn't resist.

[MikeEdgerton]

That's my story and my wife still believes it. #So don't say it doesn't happen!
You can keep your guy license. That story brings tears to my eyes.

[mandocaster]

I was unwittingly sailing near a touchy topic, perhaps with a bad history. ...just trying to get out before dying or getting killed

[Mandobar]

selling used stuff can be very frustrating. people want the best possible price and will haggle you down. as soon as you agree on a price you'd think they'd be paying you for the item, right?

wrong, they leave you hang or better yet, they tell you, well, "as soon as i sell my mandolin, i'll get back to you."

now ain't that a kick in the head. which is why after a few weeks i always end up consigning or trading my instruments to a dealer.

[billkilpatrick]

But you are allowed to discuss such matters.
Of course as long as it doesn't get crazy, why not? When it ceases to be a productive conversation it will either die or be killed.
well that settles that ... neither pen nor sword are mightiest - "delete" triumphs o'er all. (damocles emoticon)

availability might have something to do with the price as they may not be making them anymore. consider the bargain-basement price on those fullerton gloucester "f's" from ... can't remember where ... and the price they command now.

serious e-commerce people - something i'm not - try to recoup their shipping charges as well. in the "economy" end of the MAS spectrum, that can add up to a sizable chunk of the original asking price.

[Santiago]

I think a smart seller who is inexperienced begins by asking for what he or she would like to have for the item, and over time the market corrects that impression. It's a natural give and take Adam Smith might have liked, and it tends to deliver a fair item for a fair price when people play by the rules. Everybody wants a bargain, there must be compromise, and no one wants to get ripped off.

[Patrick Bjorndal]

[QUOTE= ]The good news is that you don't have to buy it, you can simply ignore the ad and move on. I've never seen anyone hold a gun to a buyers head and make them buy something in a classified ad.

Mike #- #that happens all the time. #I was at outside a guitar show in a major metropolitan city a couple of years ago walking down a dark alley. #A guy jumps out from behind a trash can, pulled a 9mm Beretta, and flashed a small classified ad for a used mandolin (Pomeroy F model). #He made me write a check on the spot and followed me to the post office where he made me address an envelope and drop it down the mail shute. #At least the mandolin actually came UPS a few days later.

That's my story and my wife still believes it. #So don't say it doesn't happen!
Link,

That is brilliant. I am going to have to try that on my wife. So far, the "instrument fairy" excuse seems to be working, but I think she may be on to that one.

[MikeEdgerton]

well that settles that ... neither pen nor sword are mightiest - "delete" triumphs o'er all

Gee, I didn't see anything about anything being deleted, I must have missed that part of my own message. When threads get beyond the posting guidelines they are generally locked and are available as read only but they are still available.

[John Flynn]

You are not taking into consideration that a mandolin's value can go up whereas a shotgun unless it belonged to Doc Holliday the value will go down.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. The only mandolin values that go up are the really high-end, hard to get ones. The same is true for shotguns. Most of them lose value. But if you look at the really high end, hard to get ones, they go up. I saw a Rizzini R-1 online that was going for $250,000 without the barrels! There are fine English shotguns that are in the same range. I guarantee that you could buy one of those, shoot it for 10 years and sell it for more than you bought it.

Here is my observation to expand the the OP: There also seem to be prarticular brands of mandolins (I will not start a flame war by mentioning names) where the sellers seem to have over inflated expectations for pricing. It would be interesting, though, to do a study of this and maybe I will. I would compare the ratio of new list price to asking price and compare that to how long it takes an item to sell. The relevant variables I would not have would be the actual selling price and the actual day of sale, since the former is generally not posted and the latter is dependent on when the seller updates the listing. But I'll bet I could come close.

[sgarrity]

There are a lot of people out there that don't follow the mandolin market as closely as some of us do. And there are lots of people who rarely buy and sell. I have always tried to buy and sell for around 80% of the new price.

What I love is when you have an instrument priced fairly and people offer you half of the asking price. Or better yet, when they email you and say, "We're in the middle of a bad economic period and mandolins aren't selling for what they used to. So what's you best cash price?" Just makes me laugh!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Ken Olmstead]

One of the great things about selling these days is that we have the internet to research prices. With eBay you can search completed listings for instance. You can check the prices on similar items at several if not many stores in minutes. If someone sells something on a forum such as this, you can email that person and see if they could tell you what theirs actually sold for so that you might more closely price yours to the market. As far as, unrealistic expectations there will always be those folks that because of ego or whatever will think that there instrument is worth every penny of what it was new. As for me, I know my Weber Fern is worth a chunk less than what a new one would cost so I will have to extract the value through use!

[jim simpson]

I saw an ad for a ukelele on Craigslist in which the seller stated "this is not a toy". The asking price was $75.00, about 3 times what one can buy this brand for. I wonder if he overpaid?

[theBlood]

People do amazing things when it comes to spending money. If the listing fee is low, then some sellers will list items at high prices and hope for the fool to come along. If the amount of listings is any indication, there must be a few of those.

JY

[recharred]

I'm sure my mid-'50's F-5 will bring a higher dollar price, even adjusted for inflation, than it sold for 50 years ago. #(Well, maybe I'm not sure...) #The Eastman mandola I bought new in 2006, not so much. #Is the F-5 "vintage
You're right not to be too sure. At least for a 1962 F-5 (for which I have a catalogue handy), the price adjusted for inflation is remarkably on target. The '62 F-5 Artist went for $640 new with case (says this: http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/gib62p44.php). Adjusted for inflation, that comes to $4390 today (says this: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/). The '07 Price Guide suggests $5000 for a 60s F-5 in excellent condition, which is a bit higher, but certainly in the ballpark.

Another way to consider the premium for "vintage" depends on what counts as the comparable instrument today--one could just about get an F-5G for the inflation adjusted money of a '62 F-5, but not a new F-5 Fern. Then again, the current "blue book" of the '62 F-5 doesn't reach the new Fern either. If the F-5G is the comparable instrument (I'm not saying it is, but just for sake of analysis), then there is no measurable vintage premium for a '62 F-5.

Of course, different years would yield very different results. To take the extreme case, a Loar is certainly worth a considerable premium above its original value!

However, I think the biggest value of most "vintage" instruments (and I agree that's an ill-defined term) comes from their being excellent instruments, not from their age, per se. They are good competition for new instruments, and they are about as valuable as they were when they were first purchased. (I went through all these calculations awhile ago to make sure my instruments would be covered by my insurance, which covers instruments but not anything whose value is "substantially derived from its age or collectibility." Both my mandolins and my guitars--including my '74 Les Paul--are valued at around the replacement cost for similar quality new instruments.)

I submit that the small premium on most vintage instruments can be mostly accounted for by conceiving them as having an extended production time, involving 40+ years of play in before sale :-p

[allenhopkins]

At least for a 1962 F-5 (for which I have a catalogue handy), the price adjusted for inflation is remarkably on target. The '62 F-5 Artist went for $640 new with case (says this: http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/gib62p44.php). Adjusted for inflation, that comes to $4390 today (says this: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/). The '07 Price Guide suggests $5000 for a 60s F-5 in excellent condition, which is a bit higher, but certainly in the ballpark.
Well, my '54 might do a bit better, since the suggested current price is $7,500-8,000. #While I can't find an original 1954 Gibson price list (the "org.uk" link won't work for me), I have to assume that it's lower than the $640 1962 price.

But still, point well taken. #It's the exceptional instrument (Lloyd Loar mandolin, Martin D-28 "herringbone," pre-war flathead Mastertone banjo) that "takes off" to be sold for 50-100 times its original price. #A good but run-of-the-mill instrument increases within shouting distance of the inflation rate, factoring in the availability of comparable contemporary models. #And of course, one must take into account the wear and tear inevitable in a half-century of playing.

[woodwizard]

I think a lot of us are wondering how old does a mandolin have to be ...to be labeled vintage for real? # # Probably a very good question for someone like George Gruhn to dance around with. I know it depends on so many things, make, model, year, etc. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif It probably would be not possible to just say it has to be x years old to be vintage as every situation would be different. But what about new great instruments for example a Dude or Gil. How old would they have to be to be vintage? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif