Scroll and beyond - harp mandolins

[billkilpatrick]

rummaged around the archives and found lots of photo links for these instruments but no sound samples.

what do they sound like? would anyone know if the extended scroll (?) ... horn (?) - whatever it's called - affects the sound of the instrument and was there ever a model which incorporated octave "harp" strings - as with this harp guitar, video posted by mando302:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uYmAuBBKO-k

... would the petite structure of a mandolin support the increased tension of additional strings at that shortened vibrating length?

[delsbrother]

My Knutsen (sans sub-basses) sounds like a mixture of a mandolin and a mandola - more bass. It's primarily a flattop sound anyway, so IMO the added bass helps round out the tone. Of course that's just what I'm hearing from the player's perspective, YMMV.

There were several sub-bass equipped historical harp mandos (http://www.harpguitars.net/knutsen_images/hm2.jpg), and modern luthiers (http://www.harpguitarmusic.com/listings/listing_tonedevil.htm) have duplicated them (http://www.harpguitarmusic.com/listings/hg-newton_mando2.htm). Check out harpguitars.net.

[billkilpatrick]

darrell - thanks very much. with no hyperbole intended, they look like "awesome" instruments. if you ever come across a sound sample, please let me know.

i'm familiar with arch-lutes, theorbos, etc. but something like it in the mandolin family must be - literally - an instrument and a half.

fascinating to look at as well.

thanks again - bill

[Jim Garber]

David Newton (http://davidnewtonguitars.squarespace.com/) has built a few of these based on the Knutsens. I have been sorely tempted.

[billkilpatrick]

strepitoso! ... as we say in my adopted country.

i can see how the "extended scroll (?) ... horn (?) - whatever it's called" (what is it called?) can add voice to any octave strings attached to it but does it augment the sound of an ordinary, 4c. mandolin?

[Jim Garber]

I would think that the horn adds something but I categorize the same as the mandolira (plural: mandoliri?) -- more of a "for show" instrument, like the mother-of-toilet seat model banjos and guitars from the 1920s. Glitz und bling, you know...

http://digilander.libero.it/musicarte1/mandolira.jpg

[billkilpatrick]

"horn" - tutto chiaro - tutto spiegato - thanks.

there's an italian hand gesture - very similar to the contours of this mandolira - which suggests that someone is pitching woo to someone's ol' lady while someone else is out there pitching woo ... and (presumably) music ... to someone else.

[Jim Garber]

I seem to be confusing the woo pitcher with the woo pitchee. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[billkilpatrick]

woo's on first base ...

[Jim Garber]

http://susie1114.com/whosonfirstBudandLou.jpg

[JEStanek]

That's not very much woo'ing... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #To your OP, look at the Minner Museum too for photos, sound clips, and info. (http://www.minermusic.com/visitors.htm)

Jamie

[billkilpatrick]

haven't found any sound clips as yet ... but - hey-sus! ... look at those weird and wonderful instruments!

[allenhopkins]

Wanta buy one? #Here's one for sale at the Vintage Fret Shop in Ashland NH for less than $600:

Link (http://www.vintagefret.com/pages/11881.html)

OK, it's not a Dyer or Knutsen (or an Orville Gibson lyre-mandolin), but it's not expensive and it has a similar shape.

[delsbrother]

Wow, I hadn't seen that one before - neat! Musikalia makes a couple other "lyre" mandos, probably the only "factory" harp/lyre mandos out there - if you don't count that guy making Knutsen knock offs in Asia...

I'm sorry I didn't point you to sound samples earlier - if you want to hear what a whole boatload of Knutsens (http://www.minermusic.com/images/inst,xmas/wxmas.jpg) sound like (plus a whole lot of other bizzarro instruments) you should pick up a copy of Gregg Miner's A Christmas Collection (http://www.harpguitarmusic.com/listings/listing_gm_xmas.htm) from harpguitarmusic.com. There's a sound sample on the linked page. I believe the track you want is White Christmas. #The booklets that come with those CDs are worth the price alone, and they're great albums for the Holidays. Full disclosure - I know Gregg and like him. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Caveat - Gregg has described the sound of non-sub-bass harp mandos as sounding like... mandolins. IOW nothing noticeably different on a recording. Maybe the only person to hear the "increased bass response" is the player (or maybe it's just subliminal/self-fulfilled prophecy).

Other sources of sound samples online are available in the link in my first post (Anthony Powell's brother Dave does a short demo on the for sale page), as well as the harp guitar youtube group (http://www.youtube.com/group/harpguitar). IIRC there are some clips of Gregg playing his Knutsen, as well as some of Dave's. Hopefully Dave'll chime in here himself...

As far as how the subs were played, who knows? I get the feeling most owners nowadays are either harp guitarists doubling on the harp mando, or collectors. I mean, there really are so few of these things around there's no established "music" for them.

Gregg has written some nice pieces incorporating the subs on his mando, but I don't know of anyone else doing it. Interestingly, Gregg's fingerpicking method is similar to the method described in the Tiny Moore/Johnny Gimble thread, though obviously over a wider area of strings... Since I have trouble enough with 8 strings I opted for the "naked" version with just the hollow arm. Maybe one day when I grow up...

[Jim Garber]

Wanta buy one? Here's one for sale at the Vintage Fret Shop in Ashland NH for less than $600:

Link (http://www.vintagefret.com/pages/11881.html)

OK, it's not a Dyer or Knutsen (or an Orville Gibson lyre-mandolin), but it's not expensive and it has a similar shape.
Yeah, those Musikalias aren't all that great. That is probably why it has been there for some time, like years.

[Paul Hostetter]

Here's a guy from Crete:

http://www.lutherie.net/crete.mandolinmaker.1.jpg

I scanned this off a National Geographic LP of Greek music from the 60's. I doubt this guy ever saw a Knutsen. Or a Mozzani, who also did these things.

Musikalias are, as Jim intimates, wallhangers.

[Jim Garber]

Speaking of which... I just got a photo of the Andrini Brothers from 1945 with Fred playing his famous signature mandolira:

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-15-56750-andrinibros_mandoliracu.jpg

I posted the full photo also on the last page of the vintage photo thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=12825;hl=new;st=150).