One mic setup?

[mandocaster]

This has probably been discussed before, but...

I ocassionally go to a BG jam in my neighborhood. The folks are very nice, and a good time is had by all. The guy that hosts the jam has a little PA, and likes the one mic setup, with an AT4033, when we play at a local coffee shop.

I know some top pros use this setup, but I just don't get it. If you use an omni mic, you get tons of audience and espresso noise through the system. If you use a cardiod mic, there is proximity effect that makes the people close to the mic sound bassy, and the people further from the mic sound tinny.
Besides, it just ain't natural. If you are listening to a band acoustically, they don't dance around to get closer to you during solos.

Close miking with decent mics or good pickups is the way to go IMHO. If you wan't to be heard over the band during a solo, you play louder. If you want to be felt more than heard, you can play softer.

I don't want to be trollish about this topic. I know some people really like to dance around a large diaphram condenser mic, and are happy with the results.

[MikeEdgerton]

Mitch, take my word for it. It's easier to carry and setup and cheaper to buy in the long run. Five people that all sing and play need 10 mics. That means 10 stands or 5 stands with clamp on booms or goosenecks. It means 10 cords and a mixer with 10 inputs. I'll dance just to be able to play to a single mic. Nobody has to balance the sound, everyone just needs to learn how to play to the mic. Done right it's an excellent way play and it isn't all that hard.

Next time you're there glance at the board and see how many inputs he has. If it really is a small PA it will have about 5.

[pager]

Mike is right about the mike. No pun intended! You only need one. Setup is fast and it works very well.

[mandroid]

then, there's Cardioid Condenser sorts .. rather than an Omni pattern then.
local group uses 2 narrow cardioid pattern AKG's on one stand , sets up so the edges
of the patterns are side by side, sort of an adjustable polar pattern arc, to get all 5 of them heard but not knocking noggins.
one mic is upside down to increase the up/down sensitivity too.
for all intents and purposes its a single mic, just one stand.

the microphone stand widget that puts 2 mics on one stand actually ...

can mount 3... a loud and a soft side perhaps..

[Perry]

All valid points I prefer the one mic approach but yes it does have it's limitations especially in noisy indoor venues. Those darn espresso machines are loud but I'd still take the benefits of the one mic scene; visually and aurally

..band can mix themselves no soundman required
..fast easy and minimal set-up
..it gets the band close so they can really feel/hear the groove

We uses a Shure KSM 27 and attach a small Oktava condenser
with a little boom arm to get a little more guitar.

We also use a feedback buster and either the Mackie 450's speakers or if a smaller venue the 350's.

Fast, easy, consistent and the sound is true, clear and realistic.

[mdlorenz]

Yes, all this is true... one mic can be easier... But it takes practice... & orchestration. & lots of times w/ no monitors it's hard to accurately mix yourself to what's going through the mains. & if there's any crowd noise, forget about it...

That being said, I'd love to do a one mic for everything, but it really depends on the venue & ambient noise. And also having everyone in the band work together & know how loud they are, & know their roles...

[Mike Snyder]

I've found it impossible, now in two different bands, to convince folks of how well the one mike set up can work. You'd think all they would need to see is the Del McCoury Band and, presto. But no, they're scared of moving I guess.
It's certainly not effortless, you'll probably crash and bump and poke until ,magically one day it all seems so easy. It's a complicated way to achieve some simplicity. Sure easy to set up and adjust to different situation. One thing, however, I hear very often, "This mando sure mikes well." So many times, it seems to me, that translates,
"This mando is quiet, but if you can plug it in or jam a mike close enough, it'll be OK." I've found that to do the one mike thing, get a mando with some projection or you will sound thin until you're on top of it. Just my humble opinion.

[Spruce]

"If you are listening to a band acoustically, they don't dance around to get closer to you during solos."

If you listen to a band recording, you sure as hell are.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[mandocaster]

I am not an expert soundman, by any means, but I have set up countless PA's over the last thirty some odd years. I know it is much easier to bring one mic than ten. I know soundmen can cost money. I guess if you've got a small band, and either a quiet venue or a stage that is separated from the audience, I think it would be a good option.

The next time I play with a totally acoustic trio or quartet I will try one mic out. Who knows, I might become a believer.

[Kevin K]

In our group we use one large mic front and center and two small instrument mics to the side. For us, that setup works great and makes travel easier.
We have been to festivals where we have more than one set. On occasion the first set, 6 members, 6 instrument mics and 3 vocal and monitors across the front and the sound would be terrible.
For the second set we ask to use one large mic and two side mics and no monitors, each time, the result has been soooooo much better.

[mandocaster]

"If you are listening to a band acoustically, they don't dance around to get closer to you during solos."

If you listen to a band recording, you sure as hell are.... # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
If you mean that the relative level of the various instruments over the course of a song is often changed during the mixdown, then I agree. I am not saying that in a live setting that players can't step up to their mic for a solo.

[D C Blood]

We've done both ways, and much prefer the one mic setup. All it takes is a little practice, and no instrumentalists who want to drown out the singers. If the banjo insists on getting as close as he (or she) can and playing as loud as possible, then it isn't gonna work. A little consideration is the main ingredient. We've used one mic in some mighty big venues (not monster size), and never had any trouble.

[Gutbucket]

A single AT 3035 will do the job just fine. We've used one for two seasons and it's nearly bomb proof.

[steve V. johnson]

Since the original post is about a jam, not about a band performance, I actually do have a little experience with this sort of thing. # My only experience of the One Mic Method is as an audience member, and as an observer here on the Cafe, where I've learned an immense amount from y'all who use One Mic. I think it's a great way to do things, and it requires certain training and disciplines. #And, like many of the things I like, it ain't for everyone.

I've been asked to set up a couple of installations in little places where they have jams (sessions in my language, but these were American, not Irish), not gigs nor concerts. # The request was to put in an unobtrusive way to distribute the sound throughout the place (and in one of them, to speakers outside). #Fortunately, all I had to do was to set up the music area, and interface it with the existing system. #I'm really glad I didn't have to specify or install the distribution system.

Honestly, we never anticipated that folks might move around to try to snuggle up to the mic, we started out with the notion of "area mic'ing", of picking up whatever moved in a large field. # The two areas are different and similar... #One is booth-type seating in a corner of a room, with a real right-angle at the back, tho the upholstery is curved, and with a window behind and above. # The other is a straight upholstered booth seat with a six-foot table in front of it and chairs pulled up for the players. #Behind the bench seat is a wall with pix and art hung along it.

The proprietors both thought of what Mitch is writing about, a nice, inexpensive large-diaphragm condensor mic, and one of them bought a 4035 before I got involved. # We were able to hang that one from the ceiling in a way that it could be moved out of the way, back against a wall, when it is not in use. #The owner popped for a metal arm that I could match with a shock mount. # For the other one I was able to specify a choir mic, a small-diaphragm condensor mic with a cardioid pattern, that is a very small head/capsule element on a 24" long black stick, mate that with an extension and suspend that from the ceiling.

After a bunch of trial and error, for both situations, we found out how far we could move the mics back (above, actually) the jam area and strike a balance between picking up the least room noise and a wide enough spread to catch the whole players' area evenly. # Then I just had to find a nice, not-terribly-expensive mic preamp that would easily A) mate with the existing audio systems and, B) be very easy for the staff to turn on and off. #(A subtext of the job was that any adjustments to the mic preamp were to be impossible after the installation, inaccessible to the staff and only to the owner & most trusted mgr. #So more trial and error was in order, all tried and errored by me.) #With some help from my bosses/clients, we managed to rig a remote power switch.

But the whole point is, move the mic back to achieve broad coverage, keep the volume down and everyone who's not playing can hear everything.
I saw a place in Ireland that had a mic stand tube fitted into the center of a table... Oh, a lot of tables there are shorter than here, so folks reach down
instead of up for their drinks and you can see the whole person across from you, which is really splendid for playing music. #Anyway, they had an omni
small diaphragm condensor mic that ended up around ... 70cm/27.5" off the floor, again pretty ideal for instruments, and singers didn't jam the thing up because they were singing over it. #Sounded great. #It was just a little knob on this mic stand tube that was tall enough that glasses clinking and thumping on the table didn't spike the ears of everyone in the joint. #I don't know what the rest of the signal chain was, and I never found where the speakers were mounted, but I could hear the session nicely and unobtrusively all over the building.

So maybe if Mitch's pal can just get a desk stand for his 4033, or hang it overhead somehow, a bit further away from the players, the jostle for the audio spotlight might calm down some...

stv

[mandolirius]

For most bluegrass bands, the one mic setup produces superior (that is, more natural) results. The trouble is, bands have to learn to move. There's nothing wrong with one mic unless the band on stage doesn't know how to work it and, regretfully, some don't. It requires practice. I've seen bands show up at a festival not knowing they were only getting one mic. They hadn't practiced the movements and their sound suffered as a result. Of course, I'm talking about performances. A jam is different, although I'm not sure why a jam has to be amplified. Sounds like it's really a performance, not a jam at all. I've never seen an amplified jam.

[Crowder]

It all comes down to what kind of venue you're playing and how noisy the crowd is. My band plays in a noisy place. We'd love to take less gear, but most people are both talking AND listening and for them to do otherwise would ruin the mood of the room. One evening we tried a lower overall level with the idea that if we weren't so loud, the crowd wouldn't be either. Nope! We were being drowned out by the background noise. Right now we are running pickups on the mandolin, guitar, fiddle and bass, with the banjo into a mic and three vocal mics as well. Our banjo player is new, and he's having to adjust his usual distance from the mic for background playing. Most bands would have 3-4 instrument mics across the stage that he would bleed into, and we don't! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Still, I think the ideal set up is one that allows the band members to hear each other in exactly the same way they do when they practice. If your stage hearing is way different from your practice hearing, your performance is going to suffer. I think when people say they prefer the one-mic setup, it's mainly for that reason. I don't know that the audience gets a better mix, but the performance is probably more natural. We use small-format monitors from TC Helicon, and we have the same mix onstage as out front. We've learned to deal with it. I think our mix out front is usually good, according to friends who would know.

I like the way the Steeldrivers set up. All the singers are around one large diaphram mic, with a condenser for the guitar. The banjo and mando guys don't sing, so they are on another condenser mic off the the side. The only drawback I can imagine is that the singers probably couldn't hear the mandolin if it weren't for the P.A.

[fredfrank]

We tried the one-mic thing one time when we gave the banjo and fiddle their own mics off to the side. Since they didn't sing, we figured it would keep the area around the large condenser free from unnecessary traffic. Problem was, that when we listened to the recording taken from the PA board, all you could hear was banjo and fiddle. I think if you're gonna use the one-mic method, use one mic.

[allenhopkins]

Doesn't the McCoury band use a separate mic on the bass?

I used to love watching bluegrass bands in the '60's working around one or two mics -- Joe Val ducking under the swing of John Cooke's and Bob Siggins' guitar and banjo necks to get up to the mic for a mandolin break. Only trouble was, we often lost the first half-measure of the break while he was getting to the mic. Recently saw both McCoury and the Jaybirds using one mic, and didn't lose a thing -- perhaps the advantage of a 21st century mic over whatever cheapo was being used at Club 47 in 1964.

Still, not for everyone. Balancing volume levels through both mic distance, and picking intensity ain't easy. And bands do have to learn to adjust singing volumes "by ear" rather than just asking the sound man to "turn up LeRoy, there."

The image of the mandolin player raising his instrument to shoulder height, to play a break into a mic set up for singing as well, stays with me, years after.

[Fretbear]

Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver use two; and the bass is picked-up I believe. They look and sound great and the spirit is the same, just a little easier on them, three on one, two on the other.

[T W Perez]

I used to think the one mike setup was for looks,until I tried it.We set up w/large diaphram,a beta 57 at instrument level on the same stand,and another 57 off to the side for non singing banjo player.I really like the ease,no moniters and the effect of the large diaphram.Don't think I added much to the discussion am enjoying these threads about sound systems.So important to get it right.

[UnityGain]

I don't play in a bluegrass band, but I would love it if my band tried a single mic setup!

Another good point to remember that in terms of gain before feedback, a single mic cant be beat. The less sources, the less problems. Period. If you have never tried playing into a real hot condenser, you need to. If your playing infront of a glass wall, it might be an issue but the sound guy should know the room. And you really can hear yourselves because you will be able to hear the mains on stage.

I'd go for it, esp. if its only a jam.

[Tim2723]

I've come to the conclusion that the one-mic system doesn't make a band sound good, it's that you have to be a good band to use it successfully. #Knowing how to move into the mic, choreography, playing at appropriate volumes, backing off to let the quieter instruments in, singing together, hearing each other, not out-gunning one another, are all marks of musicianship. #The one-mic system works great for great bands. #Mediocre or poor players just don't pull it off (that's why I use a pickup!). #Just being able to play your break while getting into and adjusting your position is something I envy but can't do. #I can't imagine it working well for a jam consisting of players who don't practice their tails off together, not to mention relative strangers that can show up.

[earthsave]

One of the best bands I have seen work the single mic is KSBC = Karl Shiflett and the Big Country Show.

They have full 6-piece bluegrass instrumentation; guitar, mandolin, banjo, fiddle, dobro, and bass and a lot of their songs are split breaks. #They do a layer and stack and work the mic very well. #Karl is on the left side of the mic and will swing more to the front left center when singing or adding a run. #Bass stays put in general, off center to the right. #Fiddle is mostly on the right edge and others stack center left. #Here's a pic that shows it a bit...
http://janssenjones.typepad.com/photos/bean_blossom_june_2005/ksbc3_bb2005.jpg

[Spruce]

"And you really can hear yourselves because you will be able to hear the mains on stage."

Well, that's actually the drawback of using condensers on stage--it renders the monitors useless...
And relying on the mains just ain't gonna cut in most situations...

But theoretically, you're all snuggled in next to one another and can "monitor" that way...
I actually think the one-mic setup improves harmony singing, and lately I've been recording using this technique as well....
And it works....


"Doesn't the McCoury band use a separate mic on the bass?"

I don't know about now, but when Mike Bubb was with them they didn't...
Listen to tapes from that period--the bass comes through just fine...


"Joe Val ducking under the swing of John Cooke's and Bob Siggins' guitar and banjo necks to get up to the mic for a mandolin break."

Wow, you just dated yourself there.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'll bet that's the first time John or Bob have been mentioned on these pages...
Great players both....
I ran into Jim Field at IBMA a couple years ago, and we wound up playing "Beatle Country" almost in it's entirety... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


"Recently saw both McCoury and the Jaybirds using one mic, and didn't lose a thing -- perhaps the advantage of a 21st century mic over whatever cheapo was being used at Club 47 in 1964."

The McCourys have obviously spent an incredible amount of time working out that choreography so that it sonically works...
Listen to the live recordings those guys make. #They sound amazing, and I'm kinda surprised they don't just record this way. #
It really sounds great....

The issue that hasn't been addressed is the phasing issues that get created when you hang 5 SM58s and 5 SM57s (a typical bluegrass setup) and crank 'em...
Also, that setup tends to encourage shoe-gazing and loitering--something that you won't see in a McCoury or Cherryholmes gig... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


"Here's a pic that shows it a bit..."

Looks like one of Wes Dooleys RCA BX44 shells....
Wonder what they have it loaded with?

[steve V. johnson]

Bruce wondered, "Looks like one of Wes Dooleys RCA BX44 shells... Wonder what they have it loaded with? "

Yep, with that lovely custom radio label on top, those are sweet.

I -always- wonder what folks put in there. It's a small space and it wants a side-address mic. How many side-address condensor mics do you know
that will fit in there?

A good mystery.

stv

[mandopete]

Not to belabor this point as we've discussed it before - but most of these bluegrass bands that use a "single mic" are actually using more than just one. Many will have "wings" (Hot Rize), dual LDC's (DelMcCoury) and almost all have the bass on a wrap.

My point is that these hybrid set-up's were created (IMHO) to allow the musicians to get physically close together to improve things like harmony singing, eye contact and overall appearance and band sound. They are not in any way, shape or form a simple, easy-to-use, anyone can do solution to sound reinforcement.

That said a real single mic set-up that one might see at a jam session or open mic is intended as a simple, easy to set-up and use solution and I don't think one should judge it's effectiveness based upon that sort of application.

[Red Henry]

I've seen even professional bands fall flat when thrown into a one-mike situation, if they weren't used to it. As noted above, it takes a band who can mix themselves.

Go back a ways for this trivia question-- What was the FIRST band in the bluegrass field (early 1970s) to use individual mikes for each person on stage, instead of just one or two for the whole group? (Clue: the bandleader/banjo picker also was and is a very accomplished sound man.) When I first saw them perform like that, I thought it sure was a lot of mikes!

Red

[Spruce]

"I -always- wonder what folks put in there. #It's a small space and it wants a side-address mic. #How many side-address condensor mics do you know
that will fit in there?"

Wow, I never noticed that...
Wes recommends a "Schoeps or other compact diameter side-address microphone", but you're right--there aren't that many of those kicking around...
Maybe a Neumann KM86?

In the pic, it looks like Wes has it loaded with a figure-8...
Odd....




http://www.wesdooley.com/images/R44SM_full.gif

[TonyP]

Amen Pete. Well said. I've found all your points to be my experience too. While I do use a main LDC(up to a point, when I have to get really loud, it goes away)we rely on separate instrument mics too.

I personally have found that there is no totally easy way to do sound. And the ones that make it seem to be easy, have a soundman to make it look that way. Something we don't have, and can't afford even if there was somebody around here who could do it.

So if it works for you, cool. But for the rest of us, don't get discouraged if you can't make the single mic work for you, there are other ways. There is no free lunch.

[steve V. johnson]

Making it look easy is important.

No kidding.

stv

[MikeEdgerton]

I've always thought about drawing circles around a single mic at 1 foot intervals. That way it would be easier to figure out where you should be at any given time.

[mandopete]

I know a band that did exactly that. They then rehearsed each position for each musician.

What a lot of work.

They sounded GREAT!

[herbsandspices]

There is a local Chicago band called Sexfist (bad name, but they play traditional bluegrass) who rocks the one-mic scene - we opened up for them once, and it was a pleasure to see them work around that one mic, with instrumental solos, and all coming in to sing. Very cool!
john

[mandopete]

Yeah, we're sharing the bill with a band called Midnight Flight (http://www.midnightflight.com/) at the Chilliwack Bluegrass Festival in couple of weeks. They won the 2007 National Single Mic contest and I'm anxious to see if it's truly a single mic and how they work it.

[mandopete]

... I'm anxious to see if it's truly a single mic and how they work it.
This piture says no...

[earthsave]

KSBC, from what I recall at a workshop, have their shell loaded with an AT 4033. They only use one mic. We do the same setup and our bass comes through just fine. Sometimes the sound guys will throw in some extra mics and mic the bass for more control, but when we do the sound, it's just the one mic.

Del McCoury, from when I last saw them, used two of these. Jason and Ronnie hung around the mic on the right and Del was too the left of the left mic. Ronnie would move over to Del's mic to sing harmony as would others with parts. Ronnie would sometimes solo on the left mic and sometimes on the right. Rob was back and centered between both mics and Mike was behind Del's mic.

I think they chose this setup to give some space and versatility to there positions.

[mandocaster]

I have really enjoyed this thread. I guess I haven't played very many BG gigs (and those with a multi mic setup), and had no idea that the one mic setup had so many fans, or that it worked so well for that genre. Does Grisman ever use this setup?

[Mike Bunting]

I saw the Jaybirds tonight and they all used DPA wireless mics on their instruments and sang around one mic. I was very impressed with the sound.

[Perry]

KSBC, from what I recall at a workshop, have their shell loaded with an AT 4033

Does anybody know whwre you can purchase one of those "shells"?

By shell I am guess you are referring to the cover that makes the mic look like a big old fashioned one.

BTW does the "shell" impede a mic's functionality in any way?

Thanks
Perry

[MikeEdgerton]

Most of the people I know that have done that have purchased an older mic and inserted the guts from the new mic into it.

[GVD]

Not to belabor this point as we've discussed it before - but most of these bluegrass bands that use a "single mic" are actually using more than just one. #Many will have "wings" (Hot Rize), dual LDC's (DelMcCoury)...

Del and the boys used to have one main LDC and another one off to the side that they would sometimes use and sometimes not use for lead breaks. I also don't recall them miking or putting a pickup on Mike Bub's bass. When I saw them at Argyle this year they had added another couple of LDC's. One for Del's guitar stage left and one lower center for for instruments. They also had a pickup and I believe mic on the bass. This set up may have been just for this venue.

GVD

[GVD]

Quote #
KSBC, from what I recall at a workshop, have their shell loaded with an AT 4033

Does anybody know whwre you can purchase one of those "shells"?

On Karl's old website there used to be a whole section devoted to the shells and where you could purchase them. That section isn't on the new version of his website and I'll be darned if I can find any information on where to find them now. BTW if you do a google search on KSBC and their mics it's funny how may stories have been written saying how they use a vintage RCA ribbon mic at their live shows.

GVD

[Bill Van Liere]

The AT 4033 seems to be the most mentioned mic in this thread. What about some of the other AT 40 series, or even 30 series, mics for this application? I also understand that the Shure KSM 27 is very good. Typical power unit would be a Mackie 808 or something similiar.

Thanks for sharing your experiences all.

[GVD]

The AT 4033 seems to be the most mentioned mic in this thread. What about some of the other AT 40 series, or even 30 series, mics for this application? I also understand that the Shure KSM 27 is very good.

We use the AT 4033 and love it. I've heard good things about the other mic's you mentioned but haven't used them myself.

GVD

[mandopete]

I saw the Jaybirds tonight and they all used DPA wireless mics on their instruments and sang around one mic.
Really? #That's a new switch for them. #They had been using an AT 4033 for "main" mic and two Oktava MK 012's for the "wings". #

Seen here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sevu0noQTqw). Notice how they tilt the AT4033 at a slight downward angle. I assume they are doing this to help pick the instruments when singing.

I'm very surprised #by this as the wireless mics are generally seen with high volume performers such as Mountain Heart. #(I was not happy with that sound)

[Spruce]

"Does anybody know whwre you can purchase one of those "shells"?"

Here (http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/AEA_Replica_Microphones_and_Parts.html) ya go...

They ain't cheap....



"BTW if you do a google search on KSBC and their mics it's funny how may stories have been written saying how they use a vintage RCA ribbon mic at their live shows."

I remember seeing some old pics of Flatt and Scruggs playing to a single RCA 77DX, so it has been done....



"I saw the Jaybirds tonight and they all used DPA wireless mics on their instruments and sang around one mic."

Jim's pretty anal about mics and how to get a good stage setup, so they are a good band to watch for new ideas...

Sounds like they're going down a new path, but the thought of a wireless on a Loar somehow is just wrong... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[mandopete]

Jim's pretty anal about mics and how to get a good stage setup, so they are a good band to watch for new ideas...
True! #My general impression of a wireless mic set-up is that you gain freedom of movement, but lose some of the dynamics of moving in and away from the mic. #This movement in and away from the mic is one of key elemets to Jaybirds live performance. #It's just difficult for me to imagine why they would do this.

Keepin' my eye on this one.

[skinny]

The fact is, one condenser does not work in every situation and many venues are not suited to one mic, like possibly a coffee shop, loud bar, etc. You get so many people talking during performance that the PA has to be turned up in a small space, next thing you know you have feedback. It is hard to play decent when your worrying about feedback. I have found that the best places to use a one mic setup is when the audience is attentive (not talking over the band) and there is not a severely enclosed stage. (Like places Del Mccoury plays). I have liked the compromise best. a condenser for the two main singers and a mic on bass and mic on solo instrument(fiddle, mando,).
Works great in many situations. Downside is if you have a member that play through their mic at the same loud level throughout a song. Some people need to learn how to backoff the mic when they aren't soloing. Also, you don't get the showmanship that goes with using one mic.
I just don't like it when people say it should be one mic all the time because they think it is the bluegrass way or old time way. One mic will sometimes compromise the sound of the band. And what if your in a band that has soloists that solo at different places in the song every time?

[earthsave]

I was surprised at the cost of the shell but it does provide a great look for Karl's band. I think he said a guy out in California put it together. When I heard the cost, my brain tossed that info, cause I knew I'd never spend that much money for a look.

[mandopete]

Drifting off topic here a bit, but one of things I like about Karl Shifflett is the look. I like that the little banner on top of the mic says "KSBC". When I saw them a couple of years ago at Wintergrass he had that mic pretty high in the air. So much so that it blocked the view of the face of the person singing into it. Looks like he's lowered it a bit.

[GVD]

When I saw them a couple of years ago at Wintergrass he had that mic pretty high in the air. #So much so that it blocked the view of the face of the person singing into it.

In his case that aint exactly a bad thing!!! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

GVD

[GVD]

When I saw them a couple of years ago at Wintergrass he had that mic pretty high in the air. #So much so that it blocked the view of the face of the person singing into it.

Even Doyle has changed his setup quite a bit. At Argyle this year he was using KSM LDC's for mando, fiddle and dobro. A SDC for banjo and a dynamic for guitar. The bass was one of those electric acoustic stand up jobs with a pickup. For vocals Doyle, Carl and Darren had one of those triple mic christmas tree setups with what appeared to be Sennheiser dynamics. He's got his own soundman on tour with him now and I must admit they sounded great.

GVD

[Spruce]

"When I heard the cost, my brain tossed that info, cause I knew I'd never spend that much money for a look. "

Well, you can do it on the cheap...

A had an old Amperite ribbon mic (http://www.k-bay106.com/amper_ra.jpg) that was gutted when I got it, and it was perfect for a prop mic...
Right Mr. Bussman??

Look for an old Electrovoice V2 (http://www.k-bay106.com/e-v_v2.jpg) on e%$y that doesn't work, and you'll have a good shell to load up with a 4033 or whatever....
Hell, mint ones that work go for 250.00, so one that's busted should go for half that...

There's nothing quite as impressive as an RCA 44BX size-wise, but that EV V2 will visually do the trick....

Also, an old Shure 556 (http://www.k-bay106.com/shure556.jpg) can be a very impressive stage prop, and are about 3 times as big as the Shure 55 "Elvis" mic...
They're huge...

I might have one kicking around if someone wants to go down that road....
Lemmee look.....

[UnityGain]

When I saw del mcoury at delfest he had 4 LDCs.

There were two on a mic stand in the center, one low and one high. Then There was one on the right for del to play rythum in while someone soloed into the main mics. There was also a mic on the left for fills and some solos. They tried to keep the main action at the center mic at all times though. Only using the side mics when there was to much traffic at the main mic. I think it worked well because del's mic let him be heard nicely playing rythum without getting in the way and the extra mic was good for adding in little runs during peoples solos without having to get in there way. I dont know what the bass situation was.

[GVD]

Yeah, we're sharing the bill with a band called Midnight Flight at the Chilliwack Bluegrass Festival in couple of weeks. #They won the 2007 National Single Mic contest and I'm anxious to see if it's truly a single mic and how they work it

Hey Pete I've seen them do it both ways but as I recall they usually use the 2 mic setup. I haven't seen them since they've changed fiddle and bass players but they used to really know how to work the mic(s).

I have a hard time trying to picture them without their former fiddle player Gerald Jones (of MO not TX). That dude is a monster fiddler and a great guy to boot. If you like straight ahead BG fiddling spiced up with some serious jazz style licks, ala Vassar, then you'd defintely like Gerald. To top it off he'd stay up all night long jamming with you after he performed.

GVD

[Timbofood]

So, Red... Who was it? I am curious, I want to say Seldom Scene but, I would just be guessing

[Mike Bunting]

[QUOTE]Quote (Spruce @ Aug. 07 2008, 10:20)
Jim's pretty anal about mics and how to get a good stage setup, so they are a good band to watch for new ideas...

True! #My general impression of a wireless mic set-up is that you gain freedom of movement, but lose some of the dynamics of moving in and away from the mic. #This movement in and away from the mic is one of key elemets to Jaybirds live performance. #It's just difficult for me to imagine why they would do this.

They were still moving to the (vocal) mic for solos though it was hard to notice a volume difference so maybe it was to keep the "show" (or old habits die hard!) By the way, Jim was using a Sennheiser rig, the others had DPA's.

[Hammrn]

My observations at the local bluegrass events is that you only get half the performer's run by the time they get close enough to the single mike. Not every one, but plenty miss getting up to the mike on time, and it would seem better to have at least two mikes, one for singing, and one closer to the musicians.

[earthsave]

"When I heard the cost, my brain tossed that info, cause I knew I'd never spend that much money for a look. "

Well, you can do it on the cheap...

A had an old Amperite ribbon mic (http://www.k-bay106.com/amper_ra.jpg) that was gutted when I got it, and it was perfect for a prop mic...
Right Mr. Bussman??

Look for an old Electrovoice V2 (http://www.k-bay106.com/e-v_v2.jpg) on e%$y that doesn't work, and you'll have a good shell to load up with a 4033 or whatever....
Hell, mint ones that work go for 250.00, so one that's busted should go for half that...

There's nothing quite as impressive as an RCA 44BX size-wise, but that EV V2 will visually do the trick....

Also, an old Shure 556 (http://www.k-bay106.com/shure556.jpg) can be a very impressive stage prop, and are about 3 times as big as the Shure 55 "Elvis" mic...
They're huge...

I might have one kicking around if someone wants to go down that road....
Lemmee look.....
I'll have to keep my eyes open for old mics.

[mandopete]

I'll have to keep my eyes open for old mics.
...I've got an old SM-57 that I've had since high school in 1974!

<sorry>

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

mics, plate glass, shells, pics, a nice thread to learn on.
after staying out, I now contribute(?)
I am committed to LDCs, so keep trying to make it work. Shure KM32 is my fav single, but use it with a AKG C-414 whenever I can/need to. (don't happen to have two Shures at the moment!) No wings, no dynamics. Doesn't mean I won't try down the road. Less is better, not necessarily more, or better. Have a TLM 103 that is great (and I rotate it in), but takes a bunch of TLC.
My band is slowly, ever so slowly, learning choreography (major factor). I suggest you look seriously at your situation, and the gig, and be prepared if you're going this route.
The current situation for me is that my band is 100% against individual mics. Well, OK, we can do that. Thank goodness they throw me a bone for the effort. so far, so good.
rasa
Jonathan Reinhardt

[mandopete]

They were still moving to the (vocal) mic for solos though it was hard to notice a volume difference so maybe it was to keep the "show" (or old habits die hard!) By the way, Jim was using a Sennheiser rig, the others had DPA's.
We're they using clip-on mics for the instruments? #Do you happen to have any pictures?

I think the "habit" of moving to the main mic for solo's is a good one. #Even if that mic is not necessary for the soloist it let's the audience know what is going on.

Questions, questions, questions - inquiring minds want to know.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mike Bunting]

Sorry, no pics. And yes, the DPA' are very small and are very unobtrusively attached to the top of the instruments.

[Tim2723]

I getting confused. You all started off talking about the simplicity of the one-mic set up, yet that picture above shows six musicians using what looks like at least eight mics and a couple of pickups.

[Spruce]

"I getting confused."

Says it all, doesn't it....? # # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


We're dealing with a subject that everyone--including some of the most knowledgeable "soundperson" type folks in the land--is "confused" about....

Everyone is constantly searching for a holy-grail solution to the "one-mic" conundrum, and probably always will be...

That is, until we all get chips planted in our heads that give us all the "perfect" mix, which is probably right around the corner.... # # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Red Henry]

So, Red... Who was it? #I am curious, I want to say Seldom Scene but, I would just be guessing
It was the Second Generation-- Eddie Adcock, Wendy Thatcher, and their band at the time-- who first went to an individual-mike setup, as far as I know. I thought those were a lot of mikes, but the band sure knew how to sound good through them.

Eddie's a really fine sound-man, anyway, and must have gotten the idea from what was being done at the time (early '70s) in other genres. Eddie's not someone to be hog-tied by conventional blugrass ideas, you might say!

Red

[Timbofood]

I knew I was wrong but..."I getting confused too"
I don't think truer words were ever spoken about Eddie's "conventionality".
I have never gotten very comfortable with the one mike set up but, I won't say it does not have its own advantages as well as disadvantages. This thread brings one other thought to my mind:
Never irritate the soundman or a receptionist! The former can make you sound bad and the latter could just park you on "HOLD"

[mandopete]

Never irritate the soundman or a receptionist! #The former can make you sound bad and the latter could just park you on "HOLD"
Or your Chef!

There is no correct answer to the question of of "How do you set up and use a single mic?". This, like any other process, is one of trial and error. We're lucky to have so many knowledgable folks here on Cafe. We also fortunate in that sound equipment is getting better and more affordable all the time.

[mdlorenz]

Is it Mic, or Mike?

[Mike Bunting]

Well, I'm Mike as in Michael. Microphones are often called mic by their close friends http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandolirius]

<I getting confused. You all started off talking about the simplicity of the one-mic set up, yet that picture above shows six musicians using what looks like at least eight mics and a couple of pickups.>

I'm still confused by the original post, which talks about amplifying a jam. What kind of jam has amplification? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Red Henry]

There's infinite variety in the kinds of jams which go on across the country. Sometimes you're in a circle-situation with no organized audience, and sometimes you're in a more structured situation where there's a stage area and a listening area (often in a restaurant, club, or community center) and the pickers play through a sound system for an audience to enjoy. Different strokes...

Red

[Mike Bunting]

[QUOTE]I'm still confused by the original post, which talks about amplifying a jam. What kind of jam has amplification?

A local group tries, 3 or 4 mics get dragged around to soloists sitting in a circle and doesn't work very well at all.

[MikeEdgerton]

What kind of jam has amplification?

There's one every week in Waretown, NJ. Not every jam is 5 guys standing in a circle behind a pickup truck.

[Tim2723]

I have to say that, while I still confused, I've learned quite a bit reading all this. However, nothing has convinced me to give up my pickups. I plug a wire from my mandolin into a hole in the mixer. How simple is that.

[Perry]

I plug a wire from my mandolin into a hole in the mixer. How simple is that.


That is simple and I often do that in certain situations. (loud bars, drummer or others plugged in)

BTW Tim you guys are right around the corner from me it seems...one of these days I gotta come check you guys out. I'm in Pearl River, NY. I am guessing that for your kind of gig plugging in is the way to go for sure.

Anyway back to the topic at hand...for a string band ensemble sound nothing beats a one mic set-up or variation thereof in my mind. There is a certain dynamic that can NOT be captured when everyone is 1) plugged in and 2) spread out. It's more about creating a unified composite sound; it's difficult to explain but if you know what I'm talking about well then you know what I'm talking about. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif It can't be recreated with JUST pick-ups IMHO.

I love the sound of my MIX plugged in but nothing beats the sound or dynamics of a nice mando in front of a nice mic in a listening room; and that is the key as someone pointed out...you need an audience who is relatively attentive when in inside. Outdoors you can crank it up more w/o feedback worry.

How many of us have great practices hanging around the kitchen only to be thrown a curve at some gigs.

Well the one mic thing for us has let us translate our kitchen dynamic to the stage. That's it in a nutshell for me http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Tim2723]

Hey Perry, we are pretty close. Hope we can hook up sometime.

I agree about the sound of mics. I love them, and a great band sounds even better with a good mic set-up. We play mostly the restaurant circuit and in one place the audience can be only a foot away. Pickups and close-talk mics are the only way we survive. Nothing gets the tone going like mics, but I have two rules in our venues when it comes to tone:

1. We are our own worst enemies.

2. They're all drunk and don't care.

No one has ever given a rat's butt that I was playing through a piezo. They stagger up, say "You guys ROCK! Can you play at our wedding?" (They never call), then they throw up on the mic stands. I destroy mandolins and have rusty mic stands.

[mandopete]

Well the one mic thing for us has let us translate our kitchen dynamic to the stage.
Interesting observation and one that I have proposed to my bandmates as the objective in this mic set up. #That is to translate what we do in rehearsal (in our case a living room) to a performance. #Our biggest mis-step in doing this is that we rehease sitting down and not ganged around a mic or mic's.

The second error in our way is that we rehearse in a circle. #That particular formation doe not lend itself very well to public performances.

But all of this underscores the need to rehearse not only the music, but the movements to be successful in any "single mic" set up.

Side note: An interesting thing happened at The Infamous Stringdusters performance last Saturday night here in Seattle. As an encore they moved from the stage to the audience floor (no seats) and formed a circle like you would see at a bluegrass jam. They then played several songs as they would in a normal performance and then ending with a looser jam arrangement of Leather Britches and Caravan. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with our subject at hand, but it was a really neat thing to see in the context of a performance.

[TonyP]

In the very first bluegrass band I was ever in, the fiddle player pegged that "practice" syndrome. We joked we didn't know what to do without a kitchen table to play around. I personally never practice with the band sitting down. It just feels weird for the bass player to be standing and we're all sitting. Also I sing and play better standing.

The hard part of the the one mic is you don't have the whole mic to work, only one side, and really, not a full 180 either. You don't want your backside to the audience, and you can't use an omni directional mic successfully with sound equipment. And here you have all these instruments with big necks like banjo and guitar, not to mention the bass to choreograph. Our band has a hard enough time just remembering what to do with each song, forget the choreography. My hats off to you who do.

I've always wanted a band to come out and play acoustic before the gig, then turn on the PA. It's tough to really show the difference sonically after you have been blasted by a PA, then go to acoustic. I think people would be shocked how good they would hear if they'd not been blasted, and were accustomed being quiet and paying attention. I've seen two bands here in the old Fox theater we have do it. Nickel Creek and AKUS, and both came out and got on the front of the stage and did some really nice gospel as the encore. Once my ears quit ringing, it was awesome.

[Gutbucket]

I always thought a high profile band like Blue Highway or Kentucky Thunder should come out on stage with lawn chairs and do part of their set like it was a festival jam session. How cool would that be? Lot's of people in the audience could relate. They could even have a tent or trailer behind them as a stage prop. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Timbofood]

Another thought provoking thread! #Mandopete, I agree with the Chef "non combatant" analogy. #I also am in complete accord with the "practice the choreography" as well as the tumnes concept of band rehearsal. #I had a country band that used to rehearse at my place and they did that, I have no idea why i never applied it to BG! #Since we don't rehearse with a PA, it just never occurred to me...."Doh!" #I'll bring it up next time we pick and see how it's recieved and how it works.
I like that idea Gutbucket, feet up on a cooler, all that campy stuff.

[opie wan]

since no one has mentioned this... I thought I'd throw out a little food for thought. I play in an all electric rock and roll band.... and I have a recording studio http://www.TexasStudioC.com . So, what I know comes from this experience. Whether you use 1 mic or 18..... frequency ranges of instruments control what your sound man has to work with.
It's really simple. The reason many don't mic a bass at all (electrically) is because of frequency length.... the lower the note, the longer the frequency. In other words, the bass needs to be further (alot further) from the mic than, say, the mandolin. In a club setting, especially a small club, the bass will carry well far out into the audience and completely overwhelm the higher end instruments.

You can apply this to how you arrange players on stage.

Then, there's the guy who runs the board. Cutting out ambient noise from the board typically means cutting back on the mid range. Mid range is typically between 400 and a 1000 hertz.... you can cut it and see what sounds best for a specific group.....or room... you can notch out a frequency (I'll say for instance 440) and then adjust the width of the notch (the Q). This can make a huge impact on the final sound.

Of course, then there's the mic....a shure sm-81 is a nice condenser mic... and it has a shelving switch.... which allows you to cut out various amounts of low end... I'm thinking it'd be great for a one mic set up in a small room because you could set it to pick up the highs....only... for instance... so.. alot of room noise and bass sounds would be cut out of the mix....

It's so simple... the lower the note ... the longer the frequency... the further from the mic it should be.... just some food for thought.

[allenhopkins]

I've always wanted a band to come out and play acoustic before the gig, then turn on the PA. It's tough to really show the difference sonically after you have been blasted by a PA, then go to acoustic. I think people would be shocked how good they would hear if they'd not been blasted, and were accustomed being quiet and paying attention. I've seen two bands here in the old Fox theater we have do it. Nickel Creek and AKUS, and both came out and got on the front of the stage and did some really nice gospel as the encore. Once my ears quit ringing, it was awesome.
A couple years ago I had the good luck to open (as a solo) for David Bromberg and his band. #For their second encore, they came out to the front of the stage, in front of the mics, and sang Roll On, John. #A beautiful ending to a great show (at least, their part of the show -- can't be immodest about my little five-song set...).

[mandocaster]

I hate to stir the pot again...

I reject the notion that a one mic setup is intrinsically more "natural" than any other mic setup. Early Bluegrass performances were done that way because it was the only option. There are plenty of early recordings that sound horrible. There is something to be said for singers being close together to facilitate a tight performance. Otherwise, it is attempting to get a "look". Correography to get a look is not "natural".

[Spruce]

"Early Bluegrass performances were done that way because it was the only option."

I've seen pics of Monroe and Band from the 50's/60's, with 10 mics on stage...

All but 1 or 2 were mics owned by the fans making their own recordings of the proceedings... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[mandopete]

Kinda like this?

[GVD]

Or this?

GVD

[mandocaster]

Kinda like this?
Rats...

someone has copied my secret coffee house mic technique. I start setting up and running spectral analysis about six weeks before a gig. Then we tap tune the tables to be resonant with the espresso machines, regraduating as necessary. The bass player has a 10,000 watt power amp and 6 refrigerator sized speaker cabs that have to be installed. The band takes some intense classes in partial differential equations and analysis of functions with complex variables. On gig night we hire a team of former NASA engineers to run sound. The bass player still can't hear himself, and we belatedly realize that we forgot to rehearse.

[Spruce]

Or this?

GVD



Classic!!

Way before the Faithful Fed and the "Taper's Section" that followed them around the planet.... # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[steve V. johnson]

Mitch wrote, "Then we tap tune the tables to be resonant with the espresso machines, regraduating as necessary. "

Now... that sounds really, really dangerous. #We (Lopers) have been essentially blown off the stage, completely drowned out by espresso machines,
and if the tables were resonant with the espresso machines, they'd dance about like angry mules... or begin to hum some harmonic of the espresso
wheeze... #

Man, that's a terrifying prospect !!!!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

stv

[Nisse]

I read about someone using a line dealy (that's not the dealy/echo effect, but as I undestand it a box that delays the whole signal without adding anything) for "simulating" that the speakers were positioned further away that they really were. The trick was to not have too much delay, wich would make the sound seem deattached to the musicians, but just enough to tame the worst feedback disappear. This probably is only useful in really small places where speaker placement can't be optimal.

I don't have clue wether the method works in real life, has anybody heard about it/tried it?

/nils

[TonyP]

I think you mean, delay, not dealy. I think you have got some things kinda mixed up. Besides effects called delay, in sound, millisecond delays are put on the speakers to help align the speakers(the monitors and mains and backline if there is one) with the real source of the music, the musicians. When you have all these sources at different distances to the listener, it smears the sound. Makes it not so clear. I know I'm playing right into Mitch's parody here, but this can be really complicated. But fortunately, in my rig with IEM's, I add 8ms delay to the mains only because I only have to align with the musicians. No open air monitor, no amps/backline.

My oldest friend is a pro FOH man, and, what Mitch parodies seems not that far off, if I hang with him for a setup. I think the single mic setup is trying to push back against that. But with that simplicity, you go right back the beginning of why all the complication started in the first place.

And the thing about the espresso machine, if it was me, I'd put a mic on it, and run it through one of the noise cancellation setups. This is what Nils eluded to. It's where they take sample the sound, invert it 180 deg, and feed it back through with a speaker at the machine. Effectively negating the "noise". To do that in a PA would surely cancel feedback, because there wouldn't be enough sound left over to feedback. Kinda defeats the purpose, http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif