Eastmans [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

Jason Holmes

Jul-16-2008, 6:14pm

I say both, possibly a stepping stone but possibly a keeper too depending on many factors. I almost cut mine loose before thinking that I'd rather keep it than sell it, so to me even though I upgraded and added another, it's still a keeper.

I think Eastmans are a good value and I think "good for the money" is a perfectly valid assessment for a quality instrument on a modest (relatively speaking) budget. I consider mine a good value for what I've gotten out of it versus what I paid for it, but I don't think I would consider it good for the money had I paid $4,000 for it. Once you take away the "for the money" though, it's still good and it's definitely served me well. Relativity is a funny thing.

lgc

Jul-16-2008, 7:14pm

I would never step on mine.

Crowder

Jul-16-2008, 7:20pm

I haven't played an Eastman that I would characterize as having a "rich" or "deep" tone. They have a pleasant enough tone, and they play well and look nice and stay in tune. To the extent that a player wants a deeper, richer tone I believe that they would be unlikely to find that in any F-style mandolin in the Eastman price range. The same player could find those attributes in many used A-styles in a similar price range.

jessboo

Jul-16-2008, 10:13pm

good coment chowder

Mattg

Jul-16-2008, 10:48pm

That's true Crowder. I will probably keep my 615 but I long for the big deep tone that comes out of a better mando. My next will probably be a Weber or maybe see what the Larravie's be all about. I feel like I need to get over the next couple of "humps" in the learning curve (and get the kids through college ) before I drop the bucks. The 615 will do for now at my current level.

pdb

Jul-17-2008, 4:08am

I currently own two eastmans (and 814 and 815). They are great at what they are. They are a very nice intermediate grade to low professional grade mandolin.
For the occassional picker or amateur picker, they fill a great need at a great price point.

For anyone wanting or longing for a truly professional mandolin with superior sound and projection, I feel the eastmans fall short (but they are not intended to compete with the $5k-15k plus mando market).

I have yet to find an eastman that competes volume and sound wise to a high end weber, gibson, collins, or small shop mando in the several thousand dollar range, but it competes better than most in the value range it is intended for. So, is it a keeper. That totally depends on you and what your needs are. For a value conscious, intermediate picker it might just be the ticket. Of the pac rim mando's, I would consider eastmans some of the best.

Rick Cadger

Jul-17-2008, 7:27am

I have owned Eastman mandolins which were nice. I didn't own them for too long due to various factors, and I would agree that mine were not spectacularly rich and woody. They did sound pretty good though.

On the other hand, I regularly get to play a couple of Eastman mandolins owned by friends. Those are both several years old, and they sound way different to how mine sounded. Quite a bit woodier. A bit better all round (although still not Loars!).

I'd agree with a comment I have seen Steve Perry from Gianna make: Eastmans start off pretty tight/green.

They benefit from good setup and from having the heck played out of them for three years.

If I had know how much the sound might change I would have kept one of mine.

Capt. E

Jul-17-2008, 8:58am

I know one very knowledgable person who is an excellent player and say they prefer Kentucky over Eastman.

You don't always have to spend a lot to get a great playing, big sounding, deep toned mandolin. I would put my vintage japanese made Shiro A ff against an Eastman 805 any day. I paid $180 for it then another $120 for a professional luthier to do a setup, install a bone nut, dress the frets and tweek the truss rod. It plays and sounds as good as any Gibson A9.

Mattg

Jul-17-2008, 10:10am

"I know one very knowledgable person who is an excellent player and say they prefer Kentucky over Eastman."

Capt. That may be hard to argue with. I own both an Eastman 615 and Kentucky 380s. I really had to work on the set-up for both. Refitted the 380s bridge and replaced the 615 bridge. Had to level the frets on the 380s too. I took a lesson from a Winfield winner (Provenza) and he commented on how nice my 380s sounded. He seemed suprised.

Anyway, the 615 is a tiny bit easier to play and has a sweeter tone but not loud. The 380s is louder but the tone is a little bit rougher. I switch between the two all the time. In pure dollars, the 380s might be a better value cause the my 615 is not 2 to 3 time better than the 380s but it cost that much more. But if I had to choose one, I guess I would still choose the Eastman. Still seeing a nicer mandolin in my future though.

monk

Jul-17-2008, 10:31am

Here is my two cents worth. I have an Eastman 615, which was a step up from my Fender. I ordered it my mail in 2005. It is a good mandolin. I did lots of checking and asking people about mid-range mandos I could afford after finishing graduate school. Money was tight. I got my Eastman on sale over the Web. However, the downside is the fit and finish. This mandolin would be considered a second by most music companies. The scroll work is sloppy with a serious blemish.

But, it has a great sound, and I love the sunburst top. I will always keep this mando. It takes punishment. It has a nice neck. It is fun to play. So, before buying another Eastman, I would want to see what I am buying, not just online photos. I think buying a used one here at Mandolin cafe is the way to go.

Steve Ostrander

Jul-17-2008, 11:03am

I had a md615 and I moved it to get my MT. I liked it but I'm not sorry I sold it. The MT is a better instrument that cost twice as much.

I think Eastmans are a better than average starter instruments, an intermediate range. To me, their ovals sound better than the Fs. It definetly sounded better than my MK.

I also have a Kentucky km855 that is a little woodier than the Eastman. The Eastman had a little sweeter tone. Volume was about the same.

I'll probably move the KY for an oval soon. Eastman oval is one that I am considering.

Susan H.

Jul-17-2008, 11:12am

I currently have an Eastman MD615 and love it. Get rid of it, no way. It's been customized for ME. Do I have MAS, you betcha. My dream mandolin is a Weber Bitteroot with the Desert Dawn finish. And have Doug Edwards match the color with one of his fanastic arm rests. Almost like Paul's, not quite though. But, I'd keep the Eastman for jams and traveling with mostly. It's always good to have a plan B.

pager

Jul-17-2008, 11:37am

My personal experience is with the Caleb crowd. My Eastman 515 does not take a back seat in any way to my Collings F that I paid 7k for. Yes - they both sound different - but one is not inferior to the other. I know that statement irritates those that paid over 5k for a mandolin and get into the mind frame that you have to spend that much to get a great instrument. It is not my intention to upset those with that mind frame, but in my experience, that is not the case. Keep in mind that my Eastman experience may not be the same as yours. Just because I feel this way does not mean I am right and the others are wrong. It just means that MY experience does not match theirs. Instrument selection is so objective. I have owned many 'great' mandolins - a few Gibsons, a Weber, ect. and currently the two I now play. This is the Ford and Chevy argument. You cannot convince a Ford man that his Mustang is inferior to a Vette. That is just a waste of time and it only irritates both parties. In the end you play what works for you and not what works for somebody else. Someone else's take is just their opinion anyway. If we all had the same tastes it would be a very boring world.

I play a lot of festivals (mostly Colorado, Wyoming) and make a fair amount of money doing so. Right now, the Eastman is my main instrument. I think both the Eastman and the Collings are little cannons. In my little world, they both get the job done. I do agree that the "for the money" statement is illogical. It either is - or is not - a great mandolin. Period.

Ed Lutz

Jul-17-2008, 12:09pm

I agree with Pager about the never ending discussion of Ford vs. Chevvys.
To borrow a phrase:
It is like trying to teach a pig to sing.
It is a waste of your time and it p***s-off the pig.

Tighthead

Jul-17-2008, 12:19pm

Depends on where you're going, doesn't it? If your goal is a Dudenbostel, then a Gibson F-5G or Collings MF-5 are 'stepping stones.'

MikeEdgerton

Jul-17-2008, 12:20pm

I had an Eastman 615. It was a great mandolin. It isn't anywhere near what my Gibson F5G is. As much as anyone wants to think differently their really is a difference.

bjc

Jul-17-2008, 12:22pm

Jason Holmes

Jul-17-2008, 2:00pm

I had an Eastman 615. It was a great mandolin. It isn't anywhere near what my Gibson F5G is. As much as anyone wants to think differently their really is a difference.
Hear hear. Well said. My Eastman is very good, but my Newell for instance spanks my Eastman in just about every conceivable way. Nothing against my Eastman, but there is indeed a very noticeable difference between the two. One cost more for a reason.

Side note: It seems like between my two, the top on my Eastman is noticeably thicker, it seems to take heavier strings (EXP 75s) to drive it to sound good, versus lighter strings (EXP 74s) on the Newell which make that one sing. On the Eastman I hear the strings more too, where as on the Newell I hear the instrument more. I wonder would that qualify as a basic characteristic of a better instrument, that you hear the strings less and the instrument more? I mean of course you still hear the strings, that was just the best way I could think of to describe what I notice.

pager

Jul-17-2008, 2:08pm

Mike, I agree that Gibson makes some fantastic mandolins. But for me, they really were not IT. I have had two Gibson F9's and a Fern. I am just not a Gibson guy. I apparently don't 'get' their sound, which is why I finally settled on the Collings and the Eastman. I agree with you that there "really is a difference" - but I don't care for the difference. That 'difference' is the root of this discussion. For you and many others - that difference is what you want and represents what you are expecting from a great mandolin. For me and many others - that 'difference' is a variable of taste and constitutes other instrument choices. That does not make us wrong. We just have different tastes and ears.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-17-2008, 2:28pm

I'm sure that Gibson has made some stinkers as well, and it has nothing to do with that. When you pay four times as much for a mandolin you'll probably find some differences. The judgement as to if the difference is worth four times as much is subjective but there will be a difference.

Capt. E

Jul-17-2008, 2:50pm

I just got back from playing 11 different mandolins at a local shop: Kentucky 505; Eastman 515,514,505; Weber Yellowstone and Galatin; Elkhorn F; Rigel A; Collins MT2; Altman 2 point and a local hand-made oval. Ranging in price from $600 to $7,000. The sound of every one of them was different. All of them sounded "good" and would be nice to own. The Altman was probably "the best", it had fabulous volume, a complex tone and played like a dream. The Weber Yellowstone was perhaps my next favorite, very very nice and very close to the Altman. The Collins was perhaps the most "balanced". It would be a hard choice between the Weber and the Collins. The best "value" was the Kentucky 505. Very nice mandolin for price. I actually came away thinking that I would never buy an Eastman. They really didn't impress me that much. I'd sooner buy the Kentucky. It just sounded and played better than the Eastmans. The Eastman 514 should probably not be included in the comparisons as the F4 style is such a different animal. The Hogue, a local Austin builder, is also an oval hole, A style w/ solid bridge and a beautiful, very rich low end. What do you do? Everyone has their preferences and different instruments appeal at different times with different types of music. Each builder seems to have their own "sound". Some love Gibson, some Weber, some Collins, etc etc. I did come to one other conclusion: my next mandolin will have a radiused fretboard.

Frank T.

Jul-17-2008, 4:17pm

At the musical level I'm at my Eastman's are fine. I've done recordings with my 515 in some pro studios (as well as at home) and on the pro recording (other than the talent level) it sounds as good as any mando I've heard. Disclaimer: I am an electric guitar player and have only been playing mandolin for 5 years. My approach is not the same as a BG player. BJC

I own 2 Eastmans, an F hole and Oval. I agree with BJC... they record very nicely, especially my 505. I find that I don't need much processing at all... maybe a smidgen of reverb and compression...that's it...

Caleb

Jul-17-2008, 4:32pm

Great thread.

Mike brought up an interesting issue with the difference between the Eastmans and those like them and the Gibsons. What I'd really like to know is, what exactly makes those differences?

* As far as I know the Eastmans are all "hand-built", with minimal power tools, all made of solid woods, and are basically copies of Gibsons from the 1920s from the inside out.

* The Eastmans are being built by luthiers who know what they are doing, just as the folks building Gibsons know what they are doing.

* I believe that both care about quality and want to put an excellent instrument in the hands of the player.

The similarities go on and on. Are companies like Gibson, Collings, et al using better materials? Are the workers more skilled than those at Eastman? Do they take more time to build an instrument?

I would genuinely like to know what makes one "better" than the other. My experience in acoustic instruments is more in the guitar end of things, since I've only been into the mandolin for a couple years. But I've seen many, many fine "import" guitars that sound better than the Gibson J45s, etc hanging next to them. I'd put up one of the Breedlove imports against most anything. Sometimes I think if we were blind-folded and some skilled player gave a bunch of instruments a workout, we'd really not know the difference just by listening.

So... what does make one "better" than the other?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Capt. E

Jul-17-2008, 4:39pm

Maybe I played too many different mandolins at one time. It's like tasting wine, they kind of run together eventually. I cannot discount all the good comments about Eastman mandolins. I am far from an accomplished player and many players, even to professional level, think highly of them.

JEStanek

Jul-17-2008, 5:28pm

Caleb,
I'm no luthier, nor am I an expert but I'll weigh in with my opinion on what makes "better". I believe that if you take two woodworkers of comparable skills and have them build something from similar materials, I believe the one who uses the object he builds and invests in learning how the parts in it work together will, over time, build a better product than the one made by the person building to specs alone.

The folks at Eastman have been building mandolins for 4-5 years now building upon a history of violin family building. While they aren't apples and watermelons apart, they are different instruments and have some fundamental differences.

Handbuilt instruments by single people or groups in a company where the workers play them, and there is a high quality standard will make better products, I feel. I'm not going to get into speculating about who and where are there better woodworkers. I will say there is a knowledge gained in making mandolins (or whatever) that when analyzed and applied yields growth as a builder. I think this is the difference. The woodworking skills and the experience to know how the parts work as a system that is a mandolin.

I'm an Eastman fan. I owned one and miss it, now that it's gone. I mean no disrespect to Eastman employees. I believe I had a good instrument from them. I can hear and see differences in them compared to my other (single person made) mandolins. I paid more for them and had interactions with the builders on what I wanted sound wise.

At the end of the day (and a wordy post), better gets to be subjective. Anyone who loves their mandolin is lucky. Anyone who thinks owning a particular brand/model/whatever will make them a better player by virtue of the mandolin alone, I feel is often fooling themselves.

Jamie

Stephen Perry

Jul-17-2008, 6:39pm

Different tastes, different setup, different amount of aging. Hard to compare! And the products change through time. Webers are different. Eastmans are different. Always a moving target.

Crowder

Jul-17-2008, 7:34pm

My personal experience is with the Caleb crowd. My Eastman 515 does not take a back seat in any way to my Collings F that I paid 7k for. #Yes - they both sound different - but one is not inferior to the other. #I know that statement irritates those that paid over 5k for a mandolin and get into the mind frame that you have to spend that much to get a great instrument. #It is not my intention to upset those with that mind frame, but in my experience, that is not the case. #Keep in mind that my Eastman experience may not be the same as yours. Just because I feel this way does not mean I am right and the others are wrong. #It just means that MY experience does not match theirs. #Instrument selection is so objective. #I have owned many 'great' mandolins - a few Gibsons, a Weber, ect. and currently the two I now play. #This is the Ford and Chevy argument. #You cannot convince a Ford man that his Mustang is inferior to a Vette. #That is just a waste of time and it only irritates both parties. #In the end you play what works for you and not what works for somebody else. #Someone else's take is just their opinion anyway. #If we all had the same tastes it would be a very boring world.

I play a lot of festivals (mostly Colorado, Wyoming) and make a fair amount of money doing so. #Right now, the Eastman is my main instrument. #I think both the Eastman and the Collings are little cannons. #In my little world, they both get the job done. # I do agree that the "for the money" statement is illogical. #It either is - or is not - a great mandolin. #Period.
Interesting. Why, in your opinion, does the marketplace assign an exponentially higher value to the Collings? Have we been duped?

MikeBrennan

Jul-17-2008, 7:48pm

My only comment concerns the idea that you should expect an instrument to be twice as good for twice the price. Not true. I use the rule of thumb that every time the price doubles you get a 10% quality improvement. If you look at the full range of instruments you'll see that holds pretty true. It's more like an exponential relationship really.

man dough nollij

Jul-17-2008, 8:27pm

Interesting. Why, in your opinion, does the marketplace assign an exponentially higher value to the Collings? Have we been duped?
Collings already had a world-class reputation as a builder of guitars. Their craftsmen are no doubt well paid, career professional luthiers. Their fit and finish is among the best, if not the best of anything out there.

Eastmans (Eastmen?) are made in a shop in China, by very experienced luthiers with a long tradition of making violins. I assume that they are also well compensated professionals, but the labor cost in China is going to be a small fraction of what you have to pay here. To live in Austin and have a good standard of living, there are bucks involved.

Except for plinking one in a store, I've never played a Collings. I have an Eastman oval (504) that I would stack up against any oval I've seen anywhere, tonewise. From the geometry and appointments, it appears to be pretty much a copy of a pre-Loar Gibson. A2? It has binding on the front but not the back.

You give a crackerjack team of luthiers an old Gibson (and maybe a Giacomel?), and say "here-- make some just like this", it cuts out a hundred years of R&D. That's not a jab at Eastman-- imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Who isn't trying to clone the Loar?

Guess I used more words than it takes. Two words: Labor costs.

JEStanek

Jul-17-2008, 8:52pm

Collings is very technology centric. They make extensive use of CNC cutting and produce a very clean, very consistent instrument. I was really punched by the MT I played and had played at me at close range.

I really am interested in seeing the Eastman Bacon copy and the other ?? instruments from the Grisman - Eastman collaboration.

Jamie

fredfrank

Jul-17-2008, 9:51pm

Disposable mandolins.

Okay, just kidding. Thought I'd better add that.

Crowder

Jul-17-2008, 10:24pm

Interesting. Why, in your opinion, does the marketplace assign an exponentially higher value to the Collings? Have we been duped?

.......Two words: Labor costs.
Is that it? You also mentioned Collings' established reputation from years of building guitars. Are there really no other differences?

I maintain that there are many. I think the differences in relative value will be borne out over time.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-17-2008, 10:28pm

If they were all equal the higher priced builders would go out of business as you could get the same thing for less. There are differences in sound and playability.

LoneStarMandolin

Jul-17-2008, 10:31pm

I have a 515. it's amazing. and it's amazing to read these posts where people say "it's not quite as good as " (insert mandolin name that costs considerable sums more than your local Eastman). the fact that this conversation is going on is testimony to Eastman mandolins. they're just exceptional for the price. put a good setup on them and you've got a lot of mandolin to play.

and that makes me sad. how will I ever convince my wife I need $7K to buy something "better?" ;-)

Tom Gibson

Jul-17-2008, 10:59pm

If they were all equal the higher priced builders would go out of business as you could get the same thing for less. There are differences in sound and playability.
Yes, but there are differences in sound and playability among all mandolins, not just from brand to brand. Your first statement isn't necessarily correct, though, because there are other things like name, prestige, reputation, ignorance, tradition, prejudice, etc., that go into peoples' decision-making process.

I'm sure there are quality differences, but I also think people who paid $25k for a mandolin aren't likely to want to admit that they could have had a mandolin that's just as good AND a brand new car (or 15 more mandolins, more likely) for the same $25k. (Of course, by the same token, I don't want to spend $25k on a mandolin and I own an Eastman, so I'm inclined to be biased in the other direction.) "Eastmen" in particular seem to generate controvery here, I suppose for the above-stated reasons.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-17-2008, 11:18pm

Eastman is just the latest and greatest price point mandolin. There were others before, there will be others after. They've done a good job of selling a quality product. Chances are they will hold their current position for a while. At some point they will have their loyal following and the message board will be filled with messages like "Is the <latestandgreatest> as good as an Eastman?" and folks will tout it as the best there is. This is a circle that thankfully doesn't stop. There are some great inexpensive mandolins available right now.

Five

Jul-17-2008, 11:55pm

It's not the car. It's the driver. Eastman makes a very respectful product. As with all mandolins they vary one from the other. Play a batch of mandolins from a builder and almost all will have a different voice. The one that speaks to you is the one for you regardless what it cost or says on the headstock.

Dagger Gordon

Jul-18-2008, 4:06am

Sorry to spoil things, but my experience with Eastman has not been good.

In Spring 2007 a young girl I know asked me for advice on getting a mandolin. #I didn't have time then to help her, so largely based on the consistently good comments here on the Cafe, I suggested an Eastman 504. #
Her Dad duly bought one, and I'm afraid I thought it was terrible. #The neck had a serious bend in it (about the worst I've ever seen) and was barely playable, particularly above the 5th fret. #I have to say I was embarrassed I'd ever suggested it, and told them to take it back to the shop to see if they could do some work on it. #In the end it was decided to give her a replacement instrument, which was certainly better, but even that neck was not 100% straight. I didn't like the sound of either of them much.

I've tried a few in shops, and I've got to say I can't see what the fuss is about. #

I'm prepared to accept that the tone may not be to my taste, but at least the instrument should have a straight neck, shouldn't it?

Have I been unusually unlucky in my experience?

Steve L

Jul-18-2008, 4:57am

My experience is nowhere near as dramatic as Dagger's and I have no axe to grind, but I've played about 6 of them and really wouldn't want to own any of them. All were brand new and I don't play bluegrass. I found the neck really narrow and the tone rather thin. I was in a store where a top of the line Eastman was hanging next to a Collings "entry level" model and was just stunned how much better I thought the Collings was. I'd love to have a low cost oval A and really want to like the Eastman stuff, but so far I just don't. I like Breedloves and lots of people don't so taste is a big factor.

Rob Powell

Jul-18-2008, 5:36am

Sorry to spoil things, but my experience with Eastman has not been good.

In Spring 2007 a young girl I know asked me for advice on getting a mandolin. I didn't have time then to help her, so largely based on the consistently good comments here on the Cafe, I suggested an Eastman 504.
Her Dad duly bought one, and I'm afraid I thought it was terrible. The neck had a serious bend in it (about the worst I've ever seen) and was barely playable, particularly above the 5th fret. I have to say I was embarrassed I'd ever suggested it, and told them to take it back to the shop to see if they could do some work on it. In the end it was decided to give her a replacement instrument, which was certainly better, but even that neck was not 100% straight. I didn't like the sound of either of them much.

I've tried a few in shops, and I've got to say I can't see what the fuss is about.

I'm prepared to accept that the tone may not be to my taste, but at least the instrument should have a straight neck, shouldn't it?

Have I been unusually unlucky in my experience?
I would say that was unusual to be sure...

I've played about 20 Eastmans and none of them had anything wrong with them with one exception and that was a finish flaw.

I'm surprised that the shop didn't send the ones with bent necks back to Eastman. I suspect that they were mishandled somehow since I've never seen that.

As for the OP, I owned a Breedlove KF which was a fabulous mandolin. I never really learned to play it, so I traded it. I recently decided to try again and I bought a 505. It sounded as good as many of the higher priced Eastmans and many of the higher priced mandolins.

I'm learning really fast this time so I traded it on my 814 which I love. I'm considering going back and getting the 505 back to play at jams http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Do either of them sound like the high end Weber's or Breedlove's I played? Nope, but they both sound really good and I could almost have 3 of each for the cost of one of those Weber distressed models.

As someone pointed out, it's orders of magnitude. Twice the price isn't necessarily twice as good.

One day, I hope to be able to justify one of those Weber distressed models. The one I played really did sound the best to me but at $5k, I'd have to get pretty damn good to justify it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Stephen Perry

Jul-18-2008, 6:40am

The consistency and QA of the last couple of shipments has been rather pleasing, at least the ones arriving here. Same with the guitars. Some players seem to sound wonderful on them and really fall in love. Others prefer different mandolins. They do sound better on different ones. Thus the variation in opinion! Some like narrow necks, some want wider. So there's no absolute ranking. The folks who play well and find something that costs $800 to work well enough for them to perform with are fortunate!

Near as I can tell, all production mandolins are "price point" mandolins. Like cars and bicycles. None will be an Ellis or Old Wave, but they're not supposed to be. Eastman, Breedlove, Weber, Collings, Gibson. They're all in their own way small-shop production instruments.

Another key point is condition. Send a bunch of any mandolin through a bad shipping experience and they won't enjoy it. Put a marginal setup on any and it won't play well. Play the instrument hard for 2 years and it will sound different. I suppose the test would be to take 10 of each brand, play them equally for 5 years, then run blind playing and listening tests! We're not really going to see that. I know that in violins some of the best seem nothing special at first until they're thoroughly woken up, and that in guitars some of the nicest sounding new ones seem to soften up and play out in a year or two.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-18-2008, 7:50am

Near as I can tell, all production mandolins are "price point" mandolins.
Yes they are, perhaps I should have said something like entry to mid-price point. The point I was making is that only one will rise to the top as the mandolin du jour here on the cafe at any time. There will always be a bigger market at the current Eastman price levels than at the higher prices. Nobody can argue that.

Historically there have been a few in this league. They rise, they hold for a while, and then there's a new kid in town. Thus far Eastman seems to have done well holding their own through a slew of new kids. Eventually there will be a faster gun in town.

Five

Jul-18-2008, 8:23am

[QUOTE]giannaviolins
I know that in violins some of the best seem nothing special at first until they're thoroughly woken up, and that in guitars some of the nicest sounding new ones seem to soften up and play out in a year or two.

I agree Steve and believe this also holds true for mandolins. This fact makes buying a new mandolin an educated guess.

Barb Friedland

Jul-18-2008, 8:28am

Choosing a mandolin is such a subjective thing. What's "good" not only varies from person to person but also from time to time. I started out on a perfectly good top of the line Eastman F as my beginner instrument and it was a good way to get going. But within about a year I became aware that something I wanted was missing sound wise. The Weber Fern A and BRW 2 point I own now are a world apart from the old Eastman sound wise and playability wise as well for what I need to hear and feel.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-18-2008, 8:32am

...This fact makes buying a new mandolin an educated guess...
Buy one that sounds good from the get go and you won't have to worry about it. It will just get better. Buying one and expecting it to get better might just disappoint you in the long run.

Celtic Saguaro

Jul-18-2008, 8:47am

Agreeing with Mike. Whenever I've picked the one I liked best in a store with a good selection, I haven't wanted to give that mandolin up no matter the brand, no matter how cheap or expensive it was. #They are all mandolins I'm still very happy to play. One of them happens to be an Eastman. I wish everyone could have the opportunity to buy their mandolin in person from a great store.

Five

Jul-18-2008, 8:56am

[QUOTE]Mike
Buy one that sounds good from the get go and you won't have to worry about it. It will just get better.

Mike, I hate to disagree but all do not get better. Some never change much, some become to mushy, and others improve. Most mandolins do not sound the same after twenty minutes much less after two years. I did not mean to infer that a bad sounding mandolin will become a good sounding instrument if only given enough time. Only that most times what you buy new is not what you will have after given some time to break in. Of course opinions are like you XXXXXX and everyone has one.

pager

Jul-18-2008, 9:42am

How come banjo players never discuss things like this? I have never heard a banjo player say "My Gibson Mastertone sounds better than your Deering!" Why are they so comfortable with their instruments while us mandolin players seem so hung up on what is one the headstock? Why do I have the feeling that my comment is going to be followed by dozens of banjo jokes? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Rob Powell

Jul-18-2008, 9:47am

Rob Powell

Jul-18-2008, 9:51am

Seriously, not being a banjer player but only hearing about a small handful of banjer makers, maybe they don't have as many choices?

I've found mandolin players to be obsessive about a lot of things http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Besides, they probably do talk about it a lot, you just can't hear what they're saying over their playing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Five

Jul-18-2008, 9:57am

If you don't think banjo players are bad. Check the going price for pat. appld. for national banjo picks on the bay sometime or start a discussion on tone rings.

pager

Jul-18-2008, 9:59am

I stand corrected. They do obsess over tone rings.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-18-2008, 9:59am

Mike, I hate to disagree but all do not get better. Some never change much, some become to mushy, and others improve. Most mandolins do not sound the same after twenty minutes much less after two years. I did not mean to infer that a bad sounding mandolin will become a good sounding instrument if only given enough time. Only that most times what you buy new is not what you will have after given some time to break in. Of course opinions are like you XXXXXX and everyone has one.
No reason to be sorry, that reinforces my point. Only buy one that sounds good from the start. Buying one and expecting it to get better will probably disappoint you.

Some people seem to think that if they put a mandolin in front of their stereo speakers day and night or play it for a few years it will get better. It might but chances are it probably won't. Buy a good one in the first place and you'll be happier down the road.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-18-2008, 10:02am

How come banjo players never discuss things like this?
I'm assuming you've figured out that they do. Guitar players do the same thing as well. When you sit and listen to people that are into stereo speakers you understand that they do to, as do golfers, as do people that are into photography, etc.

This trait has nothing to do with mandolins and everything to do with being human beings.

Capt. E

Jul-18-2008, 10:07am

"Eastman is just the latest and greatest price point mandolin"

Now we have the Jade mandolins being introduced. I admit to being caught up a bit in the buzz about them and look forward to playing one in the next week or so. Maybe they will be the next "best value". We'll be arguing about the merits of Jade soon enough, I am sure.

pager

Jul-18-2008, 10:47am

Yes, us guitar players do obsess over our guitars. I was a jazz guitar major. The irritating thing about electric guitars is that after a proper setup, my $800.00 Ibanez Artcore (made in China) plays every bit as well as my Gibson Byrdland. I also play a lot of jazz so I use both guitars. So with guitars, the statement that playability increases with price, after a certain price point, is not valid. The Ibanez sounds so well, and plays so well, that I often wonder why I purchased the Byrdland.

So ... does a 5000.00 mandolin that is set up, play better than a 1000.00 mandolin after it is set up? If so, why? A good setup in the guitar world can certainly make a 800.00 dollar guitar play as well as an 8000.00 guitar. If this is true with guitars, why are mandolins different? I am not being argumentative, I am just honestly asking because apparently, I don't know!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Five

Jul-18-2008, 11:34am

pager, I am with you. I would like to know the answer to this also.

MikeEdgerton

Jul-18-2008, 11:58am

I had an excellent Eastman 615 set up by a very competent luthier (David Nichols). When I chose it I chose it over some more expensive Eastman mandolins. It played well, sounded good. I didn't know there was a difference until the day I started playing other more expensive mandolins. Suddenly there was a bottom and a high end that wasn't there in the Eastman (and hasn't been there on any Eastman I've played since, that would be dozens). What's the difference? You got me but it's there. If you're happy and satisfied that that what you got is the best there is then be happy that you've beat Mas. If you can go out and play a room full of Gibsons, Gilchrists, Nuggets, Brentrups, whatever and not see a difference between your Eastman and them then you have reached nirvana and you need to search no longer for the perfect mandolin. You're there. Believe me, these folks get more money because people are willing to pay more money. They're willing to pay more money for a reason, it isn't mass hysteria (or mas hysteria as the case may be), there are differences. You have to experience it. My Volkswagen will get me from point A to point B. I'd probably be a little more comfortable in a Mercedes and I'd probably get there faster in a Ferarri. I can be happy with my Volkswagen but I'd be silly if I said there was no difference between it and the other two. That doesn't mean I can't be satisfied with my Volkswagen.

As for electric guitars, I'm with you there but I can tell the difference between most inexpensive guitars and my Martin or my Taylor.

Jason Holmes

Jul-18-2008, 12:02pm

Kind of off topic but I think it relates to this discussion, a Honda and an Acura are both made by Honda, both may even be made in the same factories. What makes the Acura nicer and/or more desireable? Better component parts, better workmanship, more attention to detail, and higher standards of what would be acceptable to or expected by their customers. Oh, and better handling, better acceleration, better braking, quieter in the cabin, nicer stereo system, nicer cockpit ergonomics, comfier seats, etc. Personally I drive a Honda, and as far as transportation goes I don't need the extra that an Acura offers, but I have no illusion that a TL coupe isn't significantly nicer in many ways than my old Accord, which I do intend to keep until the wheels fall off.

Edit: Mike you just beat me to it, the auto comparison.

Five

Jul-18-2008, 12:20pm

Mike
I believe you are paying for the consistent craftsmanship and tonal quality these builders maintain along with hopes that they will be good investments. You do not get over twenty thousand for a mando just because people like you.

Caleb

Jul-18-2008, 1:07pm

I'm a bit surprised that more fans of Eastman haven't chimed in here. These threads are normally packed with the praises of Eastman owners and fans, but there seems to be more critics in this thread.

I think what Mike is saying is true with the auto comparison, but I still don't really understand _what_ makes those differences in the mando world. I'm sure a Gilchrist is "nicer" than an Eastman, but if they are both built by hand, slowly, with all solid woods and quality hardware, and if they were both set up, I guess I really don't know what would make one "better" than the other.

Perhaps the difference is in craftsmanship. I really don't know. But I have a hard time saying that one craftsman is automatically better than another simply because he lives in a different country. I know there are craftsmen all over the world that care abouth their craft.

Back in my early days of playing guitar I got really hung up on brand names and spend way too much time reading magazine ads by guitar companies. I went through many guitars and realized that my music wasn't getting much better, because I was focused on the instrument and not the music. So these days I try to focus more on the music than the instrument; this applies to the mandolin as well. For me, any "good" instrument that is set up well, holds tune, and sounds good will do. I know that if I were to go out and play 1000 instruments I'd never truly find one that completely amazes me in every way, so at some point I have to choose something to make music with and move on. Also, I've noticed that if I keep going to shops and playing stuff I'll continue to find instruments that I like. When does this end? There will always be a better instrument, so I guess my point is that I've learned to move on and be content and try not to look back.

Sorry for the long post. Just thinking outloud a bit...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

pager

Jul-18-2008, 1:18pm

Well ... I guess half of you must think I am mental since I hold that my Eastman compares well with my Collings or the Gibson Fern that I used to own ... or the Weber ... or the F9. Maybe I am crazy. My wife thinks so. The bad thing about being crazy is - you don't know that you are. Hmm.

Anyway, I am off to play a festival. Whoo hoo! For the half of you that agree with me, I am taking my cannon of an Eastman. For the other half that think I am nuts, I am taking my dud of an Eastman. There. I think I covered my bases.

ps: Caleb, - you can go to festivals with me anytime!

a12

Jul-18-2008, 2:10pm

How do the 900 series compare with the lower numbered
series?
I sure like the looks of their two point f hole model at
the 900 series #.

LKN2MYIS

Jul-18-2008, 2:26pm

How do the 900 series compare with the lower numbered
series?
I sure like the looks of their two point f hole model at
the 900 series #.
I believe the differences are pretty much cosmetic. Supposedly prettier woods, not sure.

I have an Eastman MD904D, and it is beautiful. Plays great and sounds sweet. I like it a lot. I didn't compare it to any other Eastmans, just tried it and loved it. I believe the curly maple binding is the main difference between it and a slightly 'lower' (i.e., less expensive model) as well.

My other mandolins all sound different from each other, which is what I want. I wouldn't say it is inferior in anyway. Great craftsmanship, playability, and tone. Is it a
Gibson? Nope. If I wanted a mandolin that sounded like a
Gibson, I would have bought a Gibson!

From Steve's wonderful site Giannaviolins.com, where I got my Eastman:

http://www.giannaviolins.com/esmando/info/Table.html

This shows a comparison of sorts between the Eastman models.
Hope this helps.

groveland

Jul-18-2008, 2:57pm

I'm a bit surprised that more fans of Eastman haven't chimed in here. #These threads are normally packed with the praises of Eastman owners and fans...
The way I figure it is, it could be any of the following hypotheticals: If I praise the Eastman, I may contribute to the remorse of an owner of an over-hyped, over-priced brand. #That's no good. #On the other hand, if I commit in writing that I don't actually hear that elusive and mysterious quality that others find so obvious, I admit to the world I am severely lacking in ears or talent or taste. I might want to avoid that. Or I might prefer to simply avoid potential angry disputes and subsequent thread lockdowns as have been fairly common. That would be good. Or, I might not want to praise those praise-worthy foreign goods for fear that it may adversely impact local builders.

I have an Eastman 614 and a Rigel A+ Deluxe. #I know they're really apples and oranges, but the Rigel is way louder and pops like a tennis ball off a wall. The Eastman actually plays easier, particularly on the higher frets (I am surprised at that) but the sound is thinner, with only a small amount of tubbiness and bass. #(Observations made with various setups, same string sets on each.)

In defense of the Eastman, it is actually opening up.

The phenomenon I witnessed with Eastmans is, I was able to taste-test and evaluate three "new" 614s at a time. One had a big tone (2005 model, sn had 2 digits, either 5x or 9x) but the neck was not straight, the bridge was way high (no perceptable sinkage, though) and the bridge itself had issues. Another was thin-sounding and hard to play (2007 model). #Another sounded somewhere in between, was straight as an arrow and structurally sound, stayed in tune up the neck, but the scroll binding was kindof unevenly placed and the finish inside the scroll was sparse. It played like a dream. (2006 model)

So from my (limited) Eastman experience, there was a pretty big difference between instruments. #I'm thinking a big factor in a good Eastman is the kind of finishing and setup it gets. (Lots of threads on this.) As if they deliver the raw materials for a good mando for the money, and the buyer finishes the work. #I don't know how typical that is among manufacturers, particularly imports, nor to what degree. #I do know that these weren't consistent like I'm hearing Collings is, that is, computer-aided cutting and whatnot. #Each was unique in its shortcomings and strong points. #I suppose when you do get a hold of a really good one, you can say that it's really a successful custom hand-made instrument.

Note: I also tried a blonde 915 at the same time, granted, it was stiff, but it couldn't compare with the Rigel. #On the other hand, the Rigel didn't sound like the Rigel when I first got it, either. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As I write this, I am reminded of how subjective it all really is. #We were shopping for pianos the other day. #Same thing. #Even if we carried a Steinway 9-footer around with us for comparison, you gotta ask, "What makes them say this Steinway is so much 'better' than this XXXXXXXX ?"

JEStanek

Jul-18-2008, 2:58pm

I am an Eastman Fan. #My 814 got me an F4 (to me) for thousands less than a genuine F4.

I'll try and answer your question again Caleb. #I believe single person builder X can command a much higher price for several reasons.
1) They need to eat, clothe, provide shelter and health care for themselves and their family.
2) consistency (and consistently improved upon) in their instruments
3) a signature sound
4) a wealth of knowledge built and added to each instrument in how all of the components function together.
5) nuances in the build, little details that take increased time.
6) nuances in tonal range/dynamics that only evolve to a consistent level of instrument production by building many start to finish, taking careful notes and learning their craft.

Finally, if 2-6 don't live up to the price asked, number 1 becomes critical and the builder gets a new job. #I'm amazed by our builders here. #Their artistry, and skill in making these instruments. #I wouldn't trade lives with them for a minute! #I'll stick to $upporting them with my habit.

Many production companies (e.g., Breedlove, Collings, Gibson, Weber) accomplish this (steps 1-6) by having Lloyd Loar like people signing off on each instrument to ensure it meets the parameters and expectations of their Company. #A signature by Kim Breedlove, Bruce Weber, Charlie Derrington, Danny Roberts, the guy at Collings?? means something. #These people started building all on their own and have grown into bigger shops. #It's not just marketing.

Back to the Eastmans, which I like and am proud I owned and would own again, some Pro's use them happily. #I enjoyed mine, it inspired me to play better. #That's enough for me. #Approval from other people who played it, or people who post here isn't that important. #

As for MAS, it may never end. #I think at a certain point, especially when money is not the critical object, the quest isn't necessarily about better, but different, new changing styles and needs. #Paul Prestopino of Peter Paul and Mary plays a Strad o Lin on stage. I'm sure he could have any instrument he wanted, he wants his Strad O Lin, you want yours. #Life is so good.

Jamie

allenhopkins

Jul-18-2008, 8:44pm

Paul Prestopino of Peter Paul and Mary plays a Strad o Lin on stage. I'm sure he could have any instrument he wanted, he wants his Strad O Lin, you want yours.
Yes he does! #Paul showed me how good Strad-O-Lins could sound; it's due to meeting and picking with him that I risked a whole $25 to pick up the Strad I own today (not that it's as nice as Paul's -- or Mike E's).

Back in the '70's I worked part time for Eldon Stutzman, who started Stutzman's Guitar Center (http://www.stutzmansguitarcenter.com/) in Rochester NY, where I've bought most of the 75 instruments I own. #(Eldon's son Dave runs it now.) #Eldon minced no words when evaluating the instruments he was selling or considering for trades, and his basic advice was, "If you can't hear the difference, buy the cheaper one." #This was regardless of what logo graced the respective headstocks. #I think this discussion is another illustration of this point. #Some profess to hear richness and subtleties in the more expensive mandolins, others say their Eastmans sound "just as good or better." #Both of them are right, because these evaluations are subjective. #Everyone concedes that Eastmans are hand-built, well-crafted instruments, offered at an attractive price. #This is all some people need or want to know. #Others say that the E's don't measure up to the sound of their Gibsons, Webers, Collingses, whatevers. #They're right too, since they discern differences that others don't.

The problem I sometimes identify in these discussions, is that making generalizations about whole classes or labels, overlooks the substantial differences among individual instruments from the same builder. #When I bought my Eastman 615 mandola, I played three instruments, two 615's and an 815. #They sounded quite distinct; I picked the one I picked because I preferred the way it sounded. #Two F-5G's will sound different, as will two Gallatins or Yellowstones. #I would never say, "All Eastmans are thus and so," because I could quickly be proved wrong by an instrument that was an exception to any rule I could devise.

man dough nollij

Jul-18-2008, 9:17pm

Kind of off topic but I think it relates to this discussion, a Honda and an Acura are both made by Honda, both may even be made in the same factories. #What makes the Acura nicer and/or more desireable? #Better component parts, better workmanship, more attention to detail, and higher standards of what would be acceptable to or expected by their customers.
An interesting point. I have seen $100,000 Acuras in other countries that say Honda on the badge. Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus are brand names invented by the big Japanese makers to appeal to American snob value.

In New Zealand (where most of my international travel has been), there are no Infinitis, Acuras, and Lexii. They are just top of the line Nissans, Hondas, and Toyotas. Americans have a distaste for the perception of Asian cheapness (which is a little contradictory now that the Japanese are making some of the best cars in the world...). It is true-- there is a bling factor.

It's a similar thing with Eastmen. I love my 504, but in my materialistic American soul, I know it's a (relatively) inexpensive copy of a Gibson A.

I will always have a place for that oval sound, and I'm completely stoked that I've had the Eastman, but I'll probably sell it when I get my next oval.

Now that I'm getting back into playing more, and considering letting the MAS beast out of the barn, I'm pursuing a custom Old Wave, with Mesquite and curly redwood. It's not because the Eastman is inferior, but I crave more MOJO. Something made in here in the states, by a real person I know, or at least have kept in touch with through the building process.

The Eastman has a peghead logo that looks (to me) like it was printed out on a label maker by a non-english speaking person. Aesthetically, it looks a little pac-rim to me.

That sounds like a shallow American value, but there it is. I hate to admit it, but I'd rather pull a custom luthier-built mandolin out of the case at a gathering than an Eastman. Just like I'd rather pull up to pick up my date in a totally tricked-out '54 Studebaker Coupe than a Kia. More Mojo. Yep. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

LoneStarMandolin

Jul-18-2008, 11:02pm

[quote=jasonh847,July 19 2008, 05:02]Kind of off topic but
The Eastman has a peghead logo that looks (to me) like it was printed out on a label maker by a non-english speaking person. Aesthetically, it looks a little pac-rim to me.

That sounds like a shallow American value, but there it is. I hate to admit it, but I'd rather pull a custom luthier-built mandolin out of the case at a gathering than an Eastman. Just like I'd rather pull up to pick up my date in a totally tricked-out '54 Studebaker Coupe than a Kia. More Mojo. Yep. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
more of this kind of honesty and this thread will die! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Stephen Perry

Jul-19-2008, 9:18am

How do the 900 series compare with the lower numbered
series?
I sure like the looks of their two point f hole model at
the 900 series #.
I believe the differences are pretty much cosmetic. Supposedly prettier woods, not sure.
Easy to settle this. Take 20 mandolins of each brand. Set them up optimally. Put the same bridge on all. Cumberland Acoustics or something. Play them all in for 5 years. Put them in a neutral room.

Then take 100 players and have them rank all the mandolins.

Then we'll know something. Until then, we've got opinions.

When I'm buying an instrument for myself I'm listening for things that the buyers I generally see aren't listening for. Tight, but not too tight. Complex, but a green complexity. Lots of reserve so the thing won't play out. Very fast and crisp response. Even response. Something that already wants to play up the neck, even if it doesn't quite do it yet. That kind of instrument usually sounds tinny to other people. Great! I can sometimes get a deal on them.

On the Eastman line:

1. QA is way up. I had no complaints at all about any of the Eastman guitars or mandolins I just got - over $10,000 worth of them. Came on a pallet. The little AC508S slothead guitars are my favorite.

2. Bracing and perhaps graduation changes have improved performance.

3. Many are stiff and really open up with strong playing.

4. Most interesting, the 500 and 900 series have a few really singing tone. I am thinking that perhaps the lack of plastic binding at the edge is a good thing at least sometimes. Several 900 series instruments I've had through have been really fine mandolins by any standard. Not an Ellis or whatever, but fine fine production instruments. Impressive. And some of the 500 series have been exceptional, too.

5. The most consistently interesting Eastmans have been the MD815V with varnish & red spruce tops. They are always mega tight with gobs of reserve. Feel like I need to sit on them! After I go through them, there's plenty of complexity and punch. I suspect they'll play in very very nicely.

Sometimes these production instruments perform very very well. I'm looking at a case containing a Loriente "Isabel" pau ferro guitar. Classical. Made up brand name. well designed production model. This brand consistently produces guitars that are excellent values. Each step gets better, except perhaps the final one to Brazilian rosewood. I took this Isabel to a friend's birthday party. He's a professional classical guitar performer. Warmed it up, commented it was tight, and proceeded to be amazed that it wasn't a $10,000 guitar, just a $5000 guitar. The whole line is like that.

But people complain about them because they're not luthier made. Sound familiar?

Not to point any fingers here, but it's easy to jump to conclusions. Conclusions that today's production is like yesterdays. That an instrument's condition now represents it's optimal condition (without setup and breaking in). That what a particular player likes is "good" and what they don't like or understand is "bad." That anyone with a contrary opinion is misguided or worse.

Until real testing takes place, all we have is stories. Not that stories aren't useful, but they're not testing. And testing is a lot of trouble.

I'd like to not read any more blanket generalizations.

I'd like folks to look inside instruments more. I've seen beautiful work inside inexpensive brands and horrible junk work inside name brand instruments.

But this isn't going to happen, I don't think. It doesn't on the guitar and bicycle forums, so why should it here?!

Dena Haselwander

Jul-19-2008, 10:03am

I have an Eastman 514 that I un-apologetically love. Aesthetically pleasing, wonderfully easy to play with the sweet, silvery sound of a bowlback.

I've played a $1200 Eastman violin that that sounded better than my luthier-made expensive violin. Test drive instruments "blindfolded"--if it plays easily and sounds wonderful and you can afford it, that's the one, no matter who makes it.

Dena

GRW3

Jul-19-2008, 10:50pm

Every custom builder out there ought to be very thankful Eastman has arrived. That is custom builders that make great mandolins. Eastman is definitely a cut above the average import and it can give a taste for good tone.

My 515 is played in and has a pretty good voice. I have played better mandolins but they tend to be very pricey. As a matter of fact, that is kind of MAS antidote. I believe I can avoid it until I can find a mando that is in my price range and sounds better new than my 515 sounds played in. The Altman I played in Austin sounds better new but boy it's out of my budget range. The local Weber dealer has a new Bitterroot. It's nice and sounds better than the new Eastmans but it doesn't sound as good as mine.

The presence of decent imports is a boon to good builders. It gives us a taste of quality. There are, however, not-so-good custom builders out there. The first mando I ever played was loaned to me by my friend who is a semi-pro Irish player, has more instruments than he can keep track of and knew I was interested. This was a pretty olive green f style mando that looked really nice. Now I wasn't a mando player but had a pretty good #handle on quality instruments from playing guitar. This pretty mando was a real dud. It let me get a feel for the mechanics of a mando but it was not very musical. I bought a Mid-Mo to really get involved and I #let my friend play it. He was shocked at the difference between the 'cheap' mando and his custom built job.

barrysholder

Jul-21-2008, 9:57am

I would like to ask you Eastman owners,I recently purschased a 504 A model and the G string is consistanly sharp. I measured to clearance at .083. I'm guessing that's the problem.What should it be? it seems very hard to play chords also?

Capt. E

Jul-21-2008, 10:34am

My $180 vintage Shiro A (which sold new 25 years ago for $600)has its own particular sound, better than an Eastman 805 in my opinion, as good as a Gibson A9, but probably not "better" than the Weber Bitteroot A or the Collins MT2 I have played. I feel very fortunate to have the Shiro, they are not easy to find...kind of like a Sumi era Kentucky. The price gap between the above goes a long way towards keeping me very satisfied with the Shiro, not that I wouldn't ever buy a fine hand-made if I had the extra 3 to 10K. I expect to one day (soon?) purchase something in the Weber/Rigel/Breedlove/Collins range. I probably won't be buying an Eastman, but for those who don't want to spend above 2K, I expect Eastman provides all you could ask for. The other choice might be a vintage Gibson A.