Competitive jams

[JeffD]

I lifted this from another thread, cuz I don't want to hijack that one, and I thought this was a good topic on its own.


Quote (desertmando @ July 15 2008, 19:21)
Being on stage is a little different that jams. #Jams are usually hard because you have to outperform the next person.

What??

I thought jams were about playing the music you love with other people.

I know you are right about some jams, and there are other musicians who would not disagree with you. But thankfully they are few in number.

I have been in competitive jams, and stayed up to the point I realized they were competitive, at which point I packed up and left.

If someone desires to show me up musically, I gracefully bow out of the competition as soon as possible.

If you want to compete, lets bid against each other on an engineering project - that is the kind of competition I have studied for and am good at, and frankly the kind of competition for which I get paid.

[f5loar]

in a jam you have the opportunity to sit it out until you can join in. After all are you not there to learn from someone better than you? If you continue to play with those no better or worse then you then you will continure to sound like you are now. I say bring the pros into a jam to at least make it worthwhile to jam. I think back to the jams I got into in the 60's with guys like Sam Bush, David Grisman, Pete Wernick, Tony Rice,Butch Robins,Lou Reid,etc. and now I'm good enough to go on stage with those guys.

[John Rosett]

My favorite jams have always been the one where you try to have some effect on the other musicians, be it a tear in their eye, or an outright horselaugh. One of the nicest compliments I ever got at a jam was when someone said to me: "When I'm playing with you, it feels like we're telling each other jokes."
I also agree with F5loar about jamming with the best musicians that will have you. That's how I learned also. Even if you feel too intimidated to step out and solo, you can chunk along and listen to what's goin on.

[JeffD]

That is one of the many good reasons to jam. Maybe one of the best.

And what an incredible opportunity - to play with the best while they are still accessible.


Perhaps to clarify, I leave when I discern that someone is deliberately trying to show me up - to win some kind of competition. If they are just naturally better than me, well that is all part of the fun. And the really great are most often the really gracious, when it comes to welcoming and encouraging those less accomplished.

[farmerjones]

This weekend i've been invited to be the free entertainment along with a bunch of brothers that are their own band. They are competative amoungst themselves, let alone an outsider. They play mostly old rock, i play OT & BG. I'm toast. I know it already. But the host likes what i do. The host wants a jam. I'll ablidge my host, but this seems like a lot of work for a pot-luck dinner. It's like what somebody said, "it's not life & death." #If they want to snowball me, they're not getting a virgin. It builds character. There's always a chance that we could actually make some music too.

[Bradley]

Very interesting Topic...

I was just talking to a friend about the same topic. The music is changing dramatically with the introduction especially of the newer more contemporary sound. Anymore its almost like "Ok your break is coming up and I just played 31,461 notes in 4 measures, I bet you cant play 31,462 in the same place"....And what bothers me probably more is if you play more of a Monroe Style versus Steffey style you no longer are worthy of being called a bluegrass mandolin player....

[Jim Broyles]

... if you play more of a Monroe Style versus Steffey style you no longer are worthy of being called a bluegrass mandolin player....
Not in our jam, and not #by anyone who knows and appreciates good sounding bluegrass. If you play mediocre renditions of Bill's simplest licks over and over again maybe it will get a little old to some folks, but I'll bet a good sounding Monroe break sounds good anytime to anybody.

[allenhopkins]

There is an old musical tradition, which I've seen most described in jazz situations, of "cutting." #Soloists trying to outdo each other, with an audience egging them on. #See the last scene of the movie Crossroads, blues guitarists competing for a soul that Satan owns. #Very picturesque and traditional and all that. #Or read Benet's The Mountain Whippoorwill, as I think the poem's called. #Or listen to Daniels' The Devil Went Down to Georgia.

Having said that, I would flee from any jam or musical situation where the object is for one musician to "beat" another. #To me that's as far as you can get, from what music's about. #Competitive types can enter contests, get judged and win prizes. #Fine for them. #And with due respect to f5Loar, it's not about playing with musicians better than you are. #I do that all the time (try to find musicians worse than I am!). #It's about making a situation where music is being informally shared among friends and strangers, into an "I'm better than you are, nyah nyah!" environment. #Can't begin to describe how unpleasant I'd find that.

Each to his/her own, of course, but a chill went down my spine when I read that "outperform the next person" line on the other thread. #Music to me is a solace, a means of connecting, a chance to create as much beauty as I'm ever going to. #Making it into a battle destroys it, IMHO.

[Gutbucket]

... if you play more of a Monroe Style versus Steffey style you no longer are worthy of being called a bluegrass mandolin player....
Not in our jam, and not #by anyone who knows and appreciates good sounding bluegrass. If you play mediocre renditions of Bill's simplest licks over and over again maybe it will get a little old to some folks, but I'll bet a good sounding Monroe break sounds good anytime to anybody.
I agree, after listening to more modern breaks, a Monroe style lick seems to get a lot of attention. It stands out more then the same old same old.

[Paul Kotapish]

I guess I've been lucky in my life of jams and sessions and have rarely experienced the kind of competition some of you are describing. In almost every case the folks I've played with have gone out of their way to make everyone--novice and expert alike--feel welcome and part of the music. This is a two-way street, of course. If the top dogs are going to be gracious and welcoming, then the less-experienced players also need to show some common sense and good manners about when and how to play.

And it's important for everyone to understand the ground rules for a given session.

There are times when it is fair and appropriate for the picking to be limited to the hot shots who can keep up with fast action, and it would not be reasonable for a beginner to expect to jump in and be welcome in those circumstances. This is a hard lesson, and one I learned a long time ago.

Anecdotal digression: Back in the mid '70s our newly formed Corvallis Folklore Society had hosted a performance by two of my favorite players. When the concert was over and we had to vacate the hall, we all agreed that it would be great to hear some more from them. Our guests were willing to play some more and we arranged to go to a local cafe for an after-hours gathering. Our guests set themselves up comfortably in a corner and continued to play some great music. When they started a fiddle tune that all the local players recognized, we started pulling out our instruments and playing along. The mood in the room instantly changed. It was clear that the guests were having a ball playing with each other--and playing music that most of us didn't have a hope of keeping up with at the time--but were not really in the mood to try to lead a jam of (frankly novice) locals. We kind of dejectedly put our instruments away and let the pros go on alone, but the evening never quite recovered. This was a definite case of crossed signals and conflicting goals. We should have waited until we were invitied or at least asked before pulling out our instruments. And perhaps our guests could have been more gracious about how they handled it, too, but we had backed them into an uncomfortable situation. Whenever I'm unsure about the nature of a session that appears to be casual, I remember that night and wait until I'm sure that I'd be welcome before jumping in.

Other sessions are intended for all comers, and it's up to everyone--especially the more advanced players--to set the bar at a reasonable height for the emerging talent. If hurt feelings and bruised egos are emerging from a given scene, it's worth a little extracurricular discussion to get some communal clarity on what's going on and why it's not working.

There's a wonderful scene in Robert Altman's movie, Kansas City, where a bunch of terrific young jazz musicians playing the roles of Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Ben Webster, et al are in a nightclub for an after-hours "cutting session." That is not a scene where an underskilled novice would have survived for long.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just one guy's opinion

[PhilGE]

Hmm... I don't think I'd call that a jam in the first place...

[JeffD]

I guess I've been lucky in my life of jams and sessions and have rarely experienced the kind of competition some of you are describing. In almost every case the folks I've played with have gone out of their way to make everyone--novice and expert alike--feel welcome and part of the music.
This has been my experience as well, 99.99354% of the time.

And usually, when someone is being competitive, it is that individual and not the culture of the jam itself.


One time it was a bluegrass jam, and I forget the tune, but the only other mandolin there did this blistering break, my fingers hurt just watching. And the look he gave me clearly indicated "whatchooogot?" When it came around to me I played the melody - cleanly, with with double stop harmonies to give it a little "high lonesome". There was no way one could argue that what I did was somehow wrong, it was too pretty.

[Santiago]

Jamming is a cooperative thing. People who get it support one another, but there's always a primadonna somewhere who tries to make it a test of manhood. Of course this was supposedly the origin of Jazz, when each club in New Orleans would sponsor a band in a daily parade, and each would try to outdo each other band to promote their club's attendance. This improvisational style took off, and the players with the most moxie were said to have "jazz" or worthy seed. And the musical New Orleans funeral was born as a cultural means to demonstrate the worthiness of the departed for heaven.

[Patrick Sylvest]

We can all learn something from just about anyone, if we're patient enough and paying attention.

[des mando]

watched a young fellow who back home was probaly the hottest picker around join the circle at pickin parlour at winfield , as his turn for a break came he picked up the pace with some pretty showy pickin that realy escalated the tempo the next guy kinda gave a look like oh are we havin a shootout and proceeded to realy show off his chops and on around the circle it went with everyone pickin a little hotter than the guy before by the time it got back around to the kids turn again the quality and intensity had escalated so far ahead that he just didnt have any bullets left in his gun and his next break just wasnt up to the level of playin he had pushed him self into, he packed up to chuckels from some oldtimers who had to be wondering what he was thinking challenging them to out pick him instead of tastfully playing along

[Santiago]

I was a violinist in a family of pianists, and my son learned piano, but I forgot to warn him before he sat down among all his cousins and played a new song he had learned. He got smoked like des mand's jammer above. Know your audience!

[Paul Kotapish]

Hmm... I don't think I'd call that a jam in the first place...
Phil--

That was the point I was trying to make with my little anecdote. Some folks want to turn every occasion into an open jam, even when it's not appropriate. The point is that we were trying to turn someone else's performance into our jam, and it was a lesson learned. Just because folks are casually playing off stage doesn't necessarily mean that it's an open session.
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Just one guy's opinion

[Crowder]

I agree with f5 and mandorose....playing with people who are ahead of where you are is a great way to learn. If they want to show you how good they are, that's okay too. I would suggest sticking around a jam where you are less than 100% comfortable. Unless the people are complete jerks, you are liable to learn something (either what to do, or what not to).

[Pheasant Plucker]

I play with a guy that talks about "competitive accompaniment". That's where you try to make the other guy sound better. It sounds good in theory, but difficult in practice. After a few years of working with him I've found that he's not as good at it as he claims to be. I know I try, but it's not always easy (especially at my marginal skill level). My wife, however, is about the most generous (and talented) musician I've met and can't keep from making anyone she plays with sound better.

[mandocaster]

Just because a player plays a flashy solo at a jam doesn't mean that they are being competitive. Have some fun. Show your stuff. If your stuff is a tasteful restatement of the melody, great. If your stuff is flashy trash, the other guys in the jam will probably survive, somehow.

All this fretting about whether another musician is "vibing" you just turns you into some kind of victim. Yuck! Who needs it?

[Mike Snyder]

In re des mando; It can be a little scary just getting your mandolin out of the case at Winfield. At any given hour of the day there are likely to be several pickers within earshot who have the ability to burn down your house, barn and chicken coop. Most cutting going on in the campgrounds is friendly competition, but some camps are more receptive to jammers than others. Sometimes you're welcome, sometimes not. It's not as wide-open and friendly as it was early on.
I don't know where you'd find more good pickers all in one spot, though. Bluegrass gets more and more scarce as time marches.

[fred d]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif I played in one jam that the leader thoght he walked on water even brought a stool instead of a chair like the rest of us set in paternised the ladys and made remarks toothers about there playing. So I started takeing my out of tune banjo?? playing slightly behind tempo ect. When he called me aside I said that we were in church and that his behavure? was questionable?? He soon after stoped the jams

[Santiago]

Folksong: "Puttin' on the agony, puttin' on the style. That's what all the youngfolks are doing all the while... and as I look around me I'm pretty apt to smile... putting on the agony, puttin on the style."

[JeffD]

Folksong: "Puttin' on the agony, puttin' on the style. That's what all the youngfolks are doing all the while... and as I look around me I'm pretty apt to smile... putting on the agony, puttin on the style."
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandocaster]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif I played in one jam that the leader thoght he walked on water even brought a stool instead of a chair like the rest of us set in paternised the ladys and made remarks toothers about there playing. #So I started takeing my out of tune banjo?? playing slightly behind tempo ect. #When he called me aside I said that we were in church and that his behavure? #was questionable?? # He soon after stoped the jams
It seems like it would be simpler to stop coming to the jam, rather than destroying it.

[John Rosett]

It seems like it would be simpler to stop coming to the jam, rather than destroying it.
Yeah, but where's the fun in that?

[Bill Snyder]

Why do go to a jam? If it is to enjoy yourself then go to the ones you enjoy. If it is to learn something then go to the ones that stretch your abilities and where the other players help you out. Hopefully you will be able to find one that does both.
If you are not getting anything out of the jam you are going to then quit. Find another one or play by yourself.

[Jason Kessler]

When I was a rock lead guitarist, I would often get into these "competitive" situations with other lead guitarists. It was like a shoot-out at the OK Corall. They'd pull out all the stops, warbling out the tricky little licks they'd been working on in their bedrooms for months.

My tactic was this: however many notes they played, that's how few I'd play. Their encyclopedic torrent would be met by my playing 3 notes. Eventually, they'd see that, for me, it was about soul rather than flash. Usually, they'd find that they had little to offer once the focus had been realigned, and would either pack up and leave OR join in the jam with a more open ear and collaborative spirit.

[Jim]

I really don't care for competition and I like to jam for the spontaneous creativity. It's not that I'm above competitive urges I just try to suppress them as they have in the past nearly ruined both skiing and swimming for me. An injury helped change that for me and helped me appreciate just doing something to the best of my ability. In the late 80s or early nineties I read an interview with Sammy Hagar who was asked if he was intimidated in his guitar playing by being on stage with Eddie Van Halen. Sammy replied that he was happy with his own playing and was able to express himself on guitar. I have taken this to heart and in a jam or a performance that is what I try to do. Just try to get the sounds in my head to come out the way I mean them to.

[Bradley]

WHen I first started playing it was a pleasure to join the local Jams...there was always 2 players there that really helped me out when it came to playing lead parts. How they helped me was they let me stand in their shadow...close enough to see, but far enough away to be out of their way. When I took what they played home and tried to mimmick it and then to bring it back a week or so later and ask them " hey is this how you did that song last week ?" that got there one on one attention for about 5 minutes...long enough that I got a free lesson. Now that I am 40ish, I really respect those guys for their input an lessons.

[jim_n_virginia]

What the heck are you fellas talking about? I've been to many jams over the years that were all about showing off and competition. Not all jams are like that and hopefully your local jam close to home is not like that.

Haven't you ever been to a week or weekend of workshops and one of the highlights was the Pro jam or Instructor jam? You don't think those guys are not picking their best stuff to amaze the newbies and to impress their contemporaries?

For instance I am going to the Roanoke Fiddle fest next week and the Clinch Mountain Boys are going to be leading an open jam for all the participants and you know I am going to be playing my best versions of the tunes I know.

Now granted most jams are for fun and you are not there to shine but blend in but sometimes in the right place at the right time it time to strut your stuff and show everybody what all your hard practice has wrought. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

And I've even been in a jam when there were 4 or 5 mandolin picking in the jam and we end up in a little freiendly competition trying to out do each other.

Under the right circumstances it's a lot of fun!

I guess my point it it's fun to compete if everyone else wants to and it's friendly.

[minnedolin]

I've never been the competitive type, more of a slacker simply because I've never been at the caliber in anything quite frankly to try and outdo a person. I take more of the pragmatic approach and try to rip off a riff or a run from someone who's got me beat! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif