Mandos for music styles

[Lee]

Little mando content here, but I'm curious what the combined wisdom of the Cafe has to say. It seems we have much concern describing mandolin tone and what kind of music they will excel at. But I don't hear the same amount of concern over violins/fiddles. Why is that?

[Jim Broyles]

The "mando for style" theories are based on the sound holes, for the most part. Since there are only F-hole violins, and the best classical violin will sound the best for fiddling, it really is only a matter of quality. I'm sure Mark O'Connor can take Itzhak Perlman's Strad and rip a great sounding Soldier's Joy on it. I'm sure Perlman can take O'Connor's fiddle and play "Schindler's List" to perfection.

[mrmando]

There's a nice duet with Pinchas Zukerman on Mark's "Heroes" disc. Mark's instrument, Petunia, is a 19th-century French violin if I'm not mistaken.

There are a few violin builders who go out of their way to sell to folk musicians, probably quite a few who would prefer to work with classical musicians, and a whole bunch who would be happy to have either kind of musician playing their instruments.

[GRW3]

Orchestral instruments are valued for uniform sound qualities. They are in place in multiples to achieve volume unamplified. That's the job, increased volume for a specific sound. If the composer wants to hear a non-uniform instrument they will do so as a specific direction such as "Concerto for Bluegrass Mandolin and orchestra".

[Paul Kotapish]

Lee,

The fiddlers and violinists I know--overlapping sets, but mostly exclusive--are, in fact, pretty obsessed with tone, and their goals are pretty different.

Although there is some interest in alternative designs for the violin, the basic form has been set for an awfully long time, and there just isn't that much to talk about in terms of the basic shape and disposition of components. When I was an editor at Strings magazine I interviewed scores of luthiers on the state of the art of violin making. A select handful were experimenting with alternative shapes, soundholes, materials, etc., but most stated unequivocably that their clients--violinists and fiddlers alike--wanted traditional-looking instruments with traditional components.

Most, in fact, said that they had a huge demand for distressed instruments that looked like old Italian violins. In the classical world, this is partly because of institutionalized bias towards the Cremona classics--not unlike the pervasive dominance of the Loar-era F-5s in bluegrass. Conductors in some orchestras forbid new-looking instruments in their string sections regardless of how they sound.

Perhaps the biggest differences in violins is in the relatively small number of players who specialize in baroque and pre-romantic classical music and prefer the older baroque setup with a different neck and bridge setup than is used on modern instruments. They might also use softer, true gut strings rather than the alloys and wrapped strings of a modern set.

In terms of sound and setup, though, fiddlers and violinists are often going for very different things, and many of the differences can be attributed to strings and bridges and perhaps some of the fittings. Fiddlers who use a lot of cross tunings often have fine tuners on every string, whereas violinists often stick to just an E tuner. Tommy Jarrell used metal geared tuning machines and banjo steel strings on his fiddle--something you would never see in an orchestra.

And then there is the matter of the relative cost of violins. There are some fiddlers who have concert-quality violins, but most are making do on instruments that probably would not make the cut for a soloist in front of an orchestra.

[Uncle Choppy]

<snip>Since there are only F-hole violins</snip>
I've been wondering for a while why this is, i.e. why are there no round soundhole violins/violas/cellos?

Is it stupid of me to think that an oval soundhole would produce similar "tubbier" variations in violin-family instrument tone?

I recently asked the question why oval holes sound different but I'm still confused as to why a single larger soundhole sounds intrinsically different to two, smaller F holes. Is it something to do with the volume of air escaping from the instrument body?

[JeffD]

Lee,

The fiddlers and violinists I know--overlapping sets, but mostly exclusive--are, in fact, pretty obsessed with tone,
Ohhh yea. Watch an accomplished violin player purchasing a new violin. Oooo boy.

[JEStanek]

You mean like this?
http://lostbiro.com/blog/wp-content/philomele.jpg from the Copenhagen Museum of Musical

Instruments (http://www.ses.dk/397c55f0/GSID/3818099).

Jamie

[mrmando]

http://lh6.google.com.au/ijerry/R9Z6zyTITcI/AAAAAAAAAG8/Goc6ae-hd6Q/s400/pochettefinished.jpg

[Uncle Choppy]

OK, so wording it slightly differently... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've often wondered why the overwhelming majority of violin/fiddles played today have f-holes, while both round and f-hole soundholes are popular with mando-family players.

Is the tonal difference less noticeable in the violin family? or maybe less desirable? or is it something to do with the extra-projection of the f-holes (if that's what it is) being even more crucial in a violin design?

And I'm still just as confused as to precisely why f-holes sound different to oval holes!

PS:
I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I just thought that the seeming lack of a parallel oval/f-hole preference in the violin world seemed related to the wider question posed in Lee's original post.

[first string]

OK, so wording it slightly differently... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've often wondered why the overwhelming majority of violin/fiddles played today have f-holes, while both round and f-hole soundholes are popular with mando-family players.

Is the tonal difference less noticeable in the violin family? or maybe less desirable? or is it something to do with the extra-projection of the f-holes (if that's what it is) being even more crucial in a violin design?

And I'm still just as confused as to precisely why f-holes sound different to oval holes!

PS:
I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I just thought that the seeming lack of a parallel oval/f-hole preference in the violin world seemed related to the wider question posed in Lee's original post.
Well I have no idea what an oval hole violin would sound like, and it might be very cool for all i know, but...

The main advantage that oval hole mandos seem to have over their f hole counterparts, is greater sustain. This isn't an issue in violins, as bowing allows for infinite sustain. The very qualities that make a plucked instrument ring out in a pleasing way (sustain, overtones, etc), may very well lead a violin to sound muddy.

Just some speculation on my part.

[Uncle Choppy]

The main advantage that oval hole mandos seem to have over their f hole counterparts, is greater sustain. This isn't an issue in violins, as bowing allows for infinite sustain. The very qualities that make a plucked instrument ring out in a pleasing way (sustain, overtones, etc), may very well lead a violin to sound muddy.

Just some speculation on my part.
Doh! I hadn't considered that crucial difference!
The violin isn't really played "chordally" (apart from double stops) and, as you say, sustain isn't an issue!

Thanks.

[Bill Snyder]

Plus they just would not look right. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Potosimando]

Re. violins and different music styles v. different types of instruments (Paul talked about this some above), to my ear there are few things more hauntingly beautiful than a Baroque Violin set up with gut strings and played with a baroque bow. #Drop-dead gorgeous and mellow to a level that simply cannot be achieved by a modern violin set-up with the sharper angle, the metal strings, and the long narrow bow. #

But, like switching mandolins, there are always compromises to be made, the Baroque violin: #1.) having to be played at 415 or so, rather than 440 because of limited string strength (i.e. everyone needs to down tune or you go it alone); 2.) Baroque violins are not very loud compared to a modern violin and don't carry as far...but the Baroque violins probably carry as far in space as a mandolin.

I assume that Paul is correct in that few violinists have Baroque-set-up instruments, but I would think that most violinists would want to own a Baroque violin in addition to their primary violin, if for no other reason than to play beautiful music at home alone.

Just thought this limited personal observation might be of interest to someone out there.

[Jim Kirkland]

Set up has a lot to do with what type of music you play. My granddaughter is a classical trained violinst. Not me, I do old time and bluegrass. I set up a lot of violins, strings, bridges, tailpieces, and soundpost settings make a lot of difference, the same as mandolin set up has a lot do do with what type of music you play. I remember one guy telling me the difference between a violin and fiddle is very simple, a fiddle is a violin with an attitude. Jim

[Paul Kotapish]

David Rivinius is experimenting with alternative shapes--mostly to provide more comfortable instruments for violists--but he hasn't messed much with the basic components.

http://www.rivinus-instruments.com/Pel93front.gif

[mandomurph]

I thought the only difference between a violin and a fiddle is you can't spill booze on a violin.

[Lee]

Paul, that looks like the Salvador Dali signature model. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[recharred]

For what it's worth, I had an Eastman 200 that sounded great for classical tunes and slow airs, but felt weird on reels and jigs. When I tried the "Eastman Fiddle" at MandoBros, I wound up going home with a new fiddle instead of a mandolin (at least that day;-) I think there's definitely a difference between the tone and especially response (not to mention the setup!) of a good fiddle vs. a good violin.

That said, I don't think it's as simple to tell the difference by looking at specs and construction. Every violin I've played has been utterly unique--much more so than mandolins, even. Also, playability of a fiddle is also more related to response and resonance than on a mandolin, at least in my experience.

I think this is part of why it is so hard to sell an awesome fiddle for anything like what it's worth, at least online. To get the one you want, you need to not only hear it, but _feel_ it under your bow.

[violmando]

I teach Orchestra in school and used to play in orchestra till I got bored with Classical music. Most classical musicians spend more time worrying about which strings to use for the proper tone; they will buy different brands for EACH string to get the right sound and yes, there are brands for different types of playing, including electric violins. But no one ever agrees on which is best for what! I'm a bassist with a minor in cello, and I swear no 2 classical violinists EVER agree on equipment! (Sort of like trumpet players and mouthpieces) They are always looking for a new utopia.

[Santiago]

I remember years ago (when I played violin first and foremost) discussing violin design with a noted violin maker of some prominence at the NAMM show(name withheld as it was years ago). I tried his violin and it sounded very good to me. So I complimented him, and told him that I played a Joseph Klotz violin made in Germany in the 1800s at home. "It really sings on the low G-string," I said, to which he replied: "Klotzes sound way too Jewish for me." Though damaged and repaired, this particular violin had great provenance and was at one time used regularly by one of the world's top classical players (the late Leopold Auer). I always assumed he felt that extra responsiveness in the lower registers or "schmaltz" made it more of a klezmer instrument, and I've seen Klezmer folks playing Klotzes, but they're not cheap by any means-- okay, sometimes big and heavy as the name came to imply -- but great sounding. I guess this would be more of a bluegrass instrument by today's standards -- not that J. or his grandfather Egideus Klotz, who learned his trade in Cremona, would ever agree to that.

[Jonathan Peck]

What I have found more interesting a difference is that violinists look for balance across the strings. They will select their strings, individually, so that you can't hear the difference between a note played closed or open on the next string.

With mandolins in a bluegrass setting, I find the string sets are out of balance favoring the bigger bass of the .40 G string and .26 D string. The most balanced set I've found to date is Labella medium with .38 .24 .15 .11

You still get the punch on the high strings and a more versatile low end that is easier to finger cleanly.

As far as the OP's question, there is alot of variation in tone between violins. Much like a mandolin, I think it has alot to do with the graduations of the plates.