When did picks first come into use?

[mehrsam]

My knowledge of classical mandolin is slim to none, but I thought this would be the forum that would know...

When did mandolin picks become common for use? I assume that prior to their use, it was all "finger style." Have thumbpicks ever been used to any extent?

Thanks in advance.

Mark Ehrsam

[Bruce Clausen]

I think playing stringed instruments with a pick came before either bow or fingers. The lute players went to fingers when they began to try playing complex textures, in the period around 1500. Before that it was all with the pick (the quill, normally), as it still is for the 'oud. Mandolin developed in both finger-style and pick-style forms, as did guitar. Others will have much to add here.

BC

[Bruce Clausen]

Come to think of it, there's a passage in Virgil (or Ovid?) where someone, probably Orpheus, is described as playing the lyre dazzingly, sometimes with fingers and sometimes with picks. #So these would both be techniques known in the first century BC. #But the instrument is a kind of harp, where fingers would probably be the original way. #I must find my Virgil and look that up.

BC

[vkioulaphides]

There is a famous 4th-century BCE relief, I believe a gift to the Temple of Delphi by the citizens of Mantineia, that depicts a young woman, seated, wearing a wonderfully pleated dress, playing a long-necked, small-bowled lutoid instrument. I must find it and take a good look at it, see whether I can discern finger-plucking or picking at work.

I may be mistaken... this artifact may be from the Temple of Mantineia, and gifted by some other ancient Greek city. You see, this work of art is commonly called "Lady of Mantineia", and I may be confusing the provenance. Time for homework...

I would not, of course, call that instrument a mandolin, but still, if I could find the image, it might shed some historical light.

[Neil Gladd]

When did mandolin picks become common for use? I assume that prior to their use, it was all "finger style." Have thumbpicks ever been used to any extent?
In the 18th century. Early players of the Neapolitan mandolin used an ostrich quill. Thumbpicks have never been commonly used.

http://www.neilgladd.com/PDenis.jpg

[joebrent]

I would not, of course, call that instrument a mandolin, but still, if I could find the image, it might shed some historical light.
I know the relief you're talking about, Victor, I think it's the one on this (http://www.shlomomusic.com/pandoura.htm) page?

[vkioulaphides]

YES! Good job, Joe!

Judging by the angle at which the player's hand meets the strings, I would say that the Lady of Mantineia is most likely finger-picking, not plucking with a plektron, as a pick would have been called at that time.

EXCELLENT source! (The Lady in question is the second image from the top.)

[billkilpatrick]

if you accept the lute as being the mandolin's predecessor, there's an interesting, 3-part article in "lute news" (april/july/december 2004) by joseph baldassare discussing picks (plectrum, in latin - plektron, i assume is greek) and medieval lutes.

[Bruce Evans]

Let's be careful about citing old paintings and sculptures as authorities on technique. They can be the artist's perception (or shortcut) rather than an accurate representation.

I am reminded of a Frederick Remington painting which shows a cowboy firing his revolver with a bent arm and the piece held near his eye. No one who has ever fired a handgun would do that twice. I saw a movie which depicted a lovely young maiden "playing" a Celtic harp from the wrong end.

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, of course, a healthy grain of salt is ALWAYS needed. Even watching present-day actors/actresses pretending to play musical instruments they really do NOT is rather... *ahem*... entertaining at times. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Bruce Clausen]

Right, Bill, the Latin word plectrum we all use was taken over from Greek plektron (= striker). This already tells us something about the antiquity of picks. Though of course it doesn't mean that ancient necked instruments were played only with pick. Martin West's book on ancient Greek music would be the place to turn for that kind of info.

BC

[Eugene]

Without knowing it, Mark, this question is really loaded: loaded with the concept of what actually constitutes a "mandolin" and a what constitutes a "mandolin pick." Obviously, there were plucked things before mandolins, but I personally wouldn't consider them "mandolins" until they came to be called that.

The earliest things called "mandolin" in the 16- and early 1700s bore no substantial relationship to the things that have come to be called "mandolin." Considering the Neapolitan types of the mid 1700s to be the earliest "modern" mandolins from which all the currently common types are derived, they were always played with plectra as the standard technique and rarely punteado. I personally think the evidence suggests that the modern incarnation of mandolin specifically was devised for plectrum play, borrowing construction paradigms from the wire-strung, plectrum-strummed chitarra battente of the baroque era and applying them to small lute-like thingies where they hadn't necessarily been applied before.

The plectra specified by the very earliest mandolin tutors were the quills of bird feathers. By around 1800, method books started advocating shaping wood slivers into plectra for some mandolin types. Frankly, I don't know when tortoise shell became common to mandolins, but am keen to hear of any evidence. It certainly was in common use as veneers and decorative elements in many baroque-era instruments; it's not a great leap to imagine somebody picking something with a bit of shell from very early.

There were earlier forms of mandolin that were played with the fingers, but they had gut strings, fixed bridges, tuning mostly or wholly in 4ths, and were really a wholly different type of instrument.

...And of course, there were a great many lute-like things that predate the use of the term "mandolin" by centuries. They have been very nicely addressed by a few posts here, but they aren't mandolins and I don't know if you were seeking word of them in reply to your question.

[Bruce Clausen]

Thanks Eugene for bringing us back to the real question. Then Mark (the OP) was right, instruments called mandolin were played finger-style before the changes that led to the modern instrument. So it sounds like the tuning in fifths, use of wire strings, and use of some form of plectrum all came in together?

BC

[Eugene]

To things called mandolin, yes, but as already alluded, plectrum play is older than mandolins and quite possibly older than punteado play.