Intros and endings

[chordbanger]

While I was playing at the jam session, I tried to tell the banjo player that Wayne and I would do the guitar intro to Will the Circle be Unbroken, then he would join in on banjo the second time around. He did not do that. He just started hammering away at his banjo right from the beginning, and you could not hear our guitars. When we end songs, they are ended abruptly, as if we are falling off a cliff. I think intros and endings are very important.

[MikeEdgerton]

Obviously the banjo player doesn't share your concerns.

[chordbanger]

Obviously the banjo player doesn't share your concerns.
He thinks he is a good banjo player, when actually he is overbearing and rude and in love with himself. Trying to teach him anything is a waste of my time. His version of Will The Circle Be Unbroken is the worst I have ever heard. The song deserves a beautiful introduction, and not done so fast like he does...when he plays, it sounds like he is in a hurry to get to the end of a song. Makes me feel like I am at a horse race or something. Lost all meaning of the song with his banjo playing.

[250sc]

Dump the banjo (insert any other instrument here) player and find one who listens.

[bradeinhorn]

this is a pitfall of any jam session. i think the only way to deal with it or anything like it, is so approach the person head on and tell them to be more conscious of the other instruments or tune leaders arrangement ideas. it should likely shut him up a bit, at least until the next situation.

other option is to start a group that actually works on arranging material.

[JeffD]

DISSENTING OPINION:

This is a jam session right? Not a band rehursal.

The point of a jam is to enjoy playing with each other - everything else is secondary, including sounding good to an audience.

In a jam there is no point being the one who is right.

Just play, put in the endings when everyone stops, put in the intros when you can, but don't expect anyone to comply, don't try and choreograph an arrangement.

Oh, and don't invite this borish banjo player to join your band! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Don Christy]

Not to give you too hard of a time Chordbanger, but your jams sound positively unpleasant.

In this and other threads, you've complained about:
Guitar player,
Banjo player,
Harmonica player
Inquisitive Autoharp player/mando beginner
People who give you cassettes
People who want you to play their instruments

And that's with a total of about 28 posts! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

You even chose your Cafe screen name based on a negative experiences at jams.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Sounds like the jam scene is frightful in your neck of the woods.
Don

[mandopete]

Oh my!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[chordbanger]

Not to give you too hard of a time Chordbanger, but your jams sound positively unpleasant.

In this and other threads, you've complained about:
Guitar player,
Banjo player,
Harmonica player
Inquisitive Autoharp player/mando beginner
People who give you cassettes
People who want you to play their instruments

And that's with a total of about 28 posts! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

You even chose your Cafe screen name based on a negative experiences at jams.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Sounds like the jam scene is frightful in your neck of the woods.
Don
For the most part, our jam session is good. My major complaint are musicians who only know how to play loud and fast. We have a large audience, and even have a name for our band, so it is more of a performance than a jam session. I was very disappointed at the banjo playing last Sunday. He is an experienced player and plays in a band, but does not know enough to tone it down when someone else is doing a solo. I really wanted the audience to hear Wayne flat pick his guitar, and I was playing along with him, and it sounded good. Banjo player was rude to play so loud that no one could hear the other instruments. Yes, I will complain about that every chance I get. I am not impressed by that type of playing.

[TomTyrrell]

Why did you play along? If the banjo player wasn't supposed to kick the song off then when he started you should have all just stood there and looked at him. Once he figures out that nobody is playing along he will finish his hot licks and stop. "OK, that was impressive, now let's try the slow version with the guitar intro." Then you can try the guitar intro version again.

[Pete Martin]

He thinks he is a good banjo player, when actually he is overbearing and rude and in love with himself.
A Banjo player thinks this?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[chordbanger]

He thinks he is a good banjo player, when actually he is overbearing and rude and in love with himself.
A Banjo player thinks this?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You are making me giggle.

[JeffD]

so it is more of a performance than a jam session.
If its a performance, well that is different.

I don't think you can have something in between, not successfully.

We have a jam that happens to be on a stage in a coffeehouse. While knowing that there is an audience does add some energy to our playing, we have made the decision that we are a jam, not a performance. We play some tunes that perhaps could use a little more polish, we spontaneously organize ourselves into arrangements that perhaps require more thought, we improvise, sometimes into crash landing, we start tunes that sometimes we end up not being able to finish, and we thoroughly enjoy playing music with each other.

All accoustic instruments are welcome, and because of that you really never know what your going to get. Sometimes it is an exercise in patience, but sometimes it is transcendently wonderful - so you take the risks and move on.

[DryBones]

He thinks he is a good banjo player, when actually he is overbearing and rude and in love with himself.
A Banjo player thinks this?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You are making me giggle.

shouldn't that just say....

"a banjo player thinks"??

[allenhopkins]

This thread, and some other current ones (like this one (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=55089) and this one (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=55044)) are making me positively paranoid about jam sessions.

Either jams are being invaded by a host of no-taste Neanderthals who play the wrong notes too fast and too loud while blowing harmonicas in your face at the same time they're falling-down-drunk and stepping all over everyone else's breaks, intros and outros --

Or jams are filling up with a bunch of up-tight "soup Nazi"* types who want to control how everyone else plays, restrict everyone to pre-planned arrangements, regiment the tempos, assign a certain volume, speed, and number of notes to each participant, ban any instrument, style or repertoire they don't happen to like, and complain vociferously and publicly about any transgression of the "rules" --

Or we're getting overly up-tight over not much.

*this is a Seinfeld reference; no political content intended

[Mattg]

Your right Allen we (me too) have been bashing jams alot. I will say that I have been to alot of very good jams too. Just thought I would add some balance.

[jbrwky]

I've had a wonderful evening.....this wasn't it, but I have had a wonderful evening. - G. Markx http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mr. Loar]

The banjo is typically louder than all the other instruments, and sometime an over bearing attitude makes matters worse. Competition is a wonderful thing if it leads to learning stuff from the better players. Was that the only banjo there? If so, it sounds like he was the ruler of the roost for a while. Also, the person taking the lead vocal tends to "set the pace" for the song in which they are about to show case themself in. I'm sure he finds fault with others at the jam session too, it's a fact of life. Ain't a perfect world at a jam session, that's why they call it "jam". I've seen bullies at jam sessions that would hog all the breaks, but alas that's another topic.

[woodwizard]

Playing/jamming with others is (to me) a lot more fun than picking by yourself all the time. Experienced players will know how to use dynamics and should be good teachers for others. I've learned a lot from great pickers about the proper things to do. As mentioned above. Walking on others solo's etc. How to play softer. We should think of helping when we can. It's all part of loving to pick.

[MikeEdgerton]

Or we're getting overly up-tight over not much.
I'm guessing that may be the case. If we look for a devil in the woodpile we'll find one.

[lgc]

I think part of the reason that guitar wasn't a lead instrument(among other reasons) is that is just isn't as loud as the other BG instruments. I can play a mando break that will cut past any banjo player I've played with and fiddles and dobros do the same. I understand that there are dynamic sensitivities in jam settings that need to be recognized but it can b equally annoying when the whole jam has to quiet down or loose drive just to hear the guitar break every song. It does sound like the banjo player was running over the session but If you invite people to play in an unrehearsed setting then you get what you get.

[homermando]

It helps to approach a jam session with the right attitude. If you have played in bands with tight arrangements and interesting dynamics its hard sometimes to keep from being disappointed when you play some of those same tunes in a jam.Somehow you just have to discard any expectations and allow those magical moments to happen in the music.

[Weagle]

I am not an arranger of music but with the guitar not being that loud. Intro would be guitar only. Banjo is just to loud. I can hardly hear myself when I am near them.

I would have said something similar to what another member said. "Now let's try it this way." Tell the banjo player to jump in after the intro. Hopefully that would get some of the peanut butter out of his ears and he will listen better.

Jammin is supposed to be fun. It does help to be a good listener but I would not let something like that spoil my fun. Now if he had kicked my dog this response would be differant.

Weagle

[TomTyrrell]

I just can't subscribe to the "It's a Jam, the music isn't important" school. If the music isn't important then why did everyone bring instruments? Could have carried in a lot more beer if they used both hands.

I don't expect everyone to be expert players but if I happen upon a "jam" that is really just a social I usually go home. Not what I'm looking for and nobody will miss me.

[Jack Roberts]

Over the last year or so our group has STOPPED elaborate endings. We are also cutting back on intros to a fewer number of measures. For endings, when we need one, we have been going to a I-V-I with a beat each: no more "shave and a haircut", which was getting out of hand and didn't sound as good as we thought. Otherwise we "fall off the cliff". Since we started doing this, our sound has improved, and we don't have people playing over other peoples intros any more. We made a recording of ourselves and one of the things we realized was how messy we sounded with intros and endings.

[MikeEdgerton]

Simple music played well always sounds better than complex music played poorly.

[chordbanger]

I support the jam session we have at the airport hangar, but I do not take it so seriously that I argue or fight with anyone. In my spare time, I take violin lessons, and I love to learn music. I am not an ear player, and I am called a "note player" by the other musicians. I admire the players who play by ear, and I have learned a lot from them. I have witnessed a lot of arguments between musicians over hogging the microphone, the use of electric instruments, and other stuff. One musician told another that his music puts him to sleep, and there was a split between the players because of it. I was asked by the leader to take over the airport jam session.....no thank you! It would be like having another job. The airplanes have to be moved out of the hangar, chairs set up, coffee made, and refreshments. Too much work for me! I want to have fun, and not work on a Sunday afternoon! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Salty Dog]

Mike hit it right on the head - bluegrass was and still should be "simple music". #Those who make it complicated are playing something else. #When Ricky Skaggs promised Bill Monroe that he would "preserve" the music, I do not think Bill imagined several "Kentucky Thunder" superpickers all taking a break at the same time producing a blast of musical noise.

[mandocaster]

How about complex music made to sound simple by great players?

That's my favorite.

[billkilpatrick]

my only experience of jam sessions was long ago and far away - washington square in nyc in the early '60's. people used to congregate around the fountain and strike-up a song with whomever was there. on those rare occasions when yer' actual audience began to form and someone outside the circle wanted to join in, what usually happened was they would start playing along and depending on how well they played, the sea of doting, fawning admirers (this is pre b.g ... before groupies) would part to allow him or her into the center. very democratic - if the audience wanted it, it happened.

this worked because it was outside and there were usually several groups playing at the same time - if you weren't welcome in one group you could usually find another ... or, indeed, start playing solo.

i think you'd have to be awfully thick-skinned not to pick up the negative vibes in a situation like this - in which case (providing the rest of the group feel the same as you and the affronted player is not one take his or her banjo home and return with an ak-47 - it's a risk) you can legitimately ask that they tone it down a little and take turns like everyone else.

i would guess that most hindmost part of the human anatomy-holes know exactly how difficult they are - they just look for people who are either too timid or too polite to say so.

- bill

[MikeEdgerton]

How about complex music made to sound simple by great players?

That's my favorite.
Complex music played well is fine. Complex music that is played poorly will be trumped by simple music played well on any given day. The audience isn't going to give anyone points for mistakes no matter how complex the music might be.

[Jim Broyles]

How about complex music made to sound simple by great players?

That's my favorite.
Nah! I can't stand the multiple-dozen notes-per-measure playing no matter what instrument it is. I can appreciate the skill and talent required but I don't like to listen to it.

[jim_n_virginia]

Hey fellas, I think I have a solution for rude jam participants.

Get a squirt gun and every time they do something rude squirt them in the face with the gun. They'll learn fast after that! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Naw seriously every jam I have ever been to has had someone who started the jam or a facilitator. He or she is the one who should oversee the jam.

Some of the best jams I have been to the leader as you might say keeps everything flowing smooth without being too restrictive. Like when people wanna talk too much between the songs and he keeps it going. Thats his job NOT the job for each individual participant to run the jam.

[chip]

That's the difference between being an amatuer vs. being a professional. Communication helps you know...
Maybe a nice way to communicate that someone is playing too loud, poorly, etc. is bring a digital recorder to the jam, record 12 bars into a song, let everyone hear what was played and then discuss what would make the sound better. Once someone hears that there overpowering the song they might backoff a little or not....