Grover tuners turning the wrong way

[littvay]

Hello Everyone

I need to preface this by saying that I never took a tuner apart and I never even thought about how it works. There is a good chance I am asking something really stupid here.

So I got an F5 shape mandolin which reportedly has a 1:18 gover tuner. But what is weird about it is that the tuners work the other way around. What used to be (to me) the direction to tighten the strings are now loosening the strings and vice versa. The strings seem to run right (turns on to the tobers from the inside of the headstock, not the outside.) These are F tuners, the top keys are longer. (So no possibility of someone putin them on backwards.)

Can somebody tell me what is going on? Left handed tuners? Can I fix this (without buying new tuners) because, as is, it is killing me...

Thanks

Levi

[Geoff B]

I was able to switch some shafts on Schallers with the same problem , but I forgot how I did it. I either switched the shafts straight across, shaft for shaft on each set, or I switched the top/bottom, middles on each set individually. It worked, but I'm having trouble visualizing exactly what I did. So I guess the answer to your question is: yes, you can fix this, beyond that you may have to figure it out, or someone with a better memory can help. Good luck!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Salty Dog]

I did this also a while back but what you do is lay them side by side and reverse every part (which means essentially the turning posts). #Be careful to notice metal or shims and replace them exactly.

[mandroid]

Gears are cut in one manner , same gear schaller uses for the A turns CCW ,
but when the string post is above the the button shaft the same gear has to be turned CW. , no big deal .


like turnbuckles and pedals on your bicycle there is a right hand thread and a left hand thread , costs more to cut both, some times its nessisary, hate to have the car lugnuts unwind on one side of the car.

, earlier posts.on this topic there have been many, noted Gotoh offers RH & LH cut gears

[BiscoMando]

honestly, you'll get used to it really fast if you just keep them how they are. I had the same issue with some schaller's and it only took a couple of weeks for me to get it right. now whenever i pick up a guitar, I turn the tuners the wrong way. It seems to me, after all the desriptions of how to swap out every part and reconfigure your expensive tuners, that it would just be easier to get used to the new direction of your tuner action.

[Dale Ludewig]

Well, if you think you have a problem- because of the configuration of the tuners on my Emory Lester model mandolin, to tighten the tuners on one side turn one way and the other way on the treble side. I haven't found a way around it. They are Grovers, completely disassembled, plated black, then put back together again with the F style side shafts reversed top to bottom. Talk about trying to keep things in order! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dale Ludewig]

Oh, one more thing. Emory's never complained, nor has anyone else. You just get used to it.

[Paul Hostetter]

Hmm. I have a "The Loar" F-5 prototype and just put a hang-on-the-hook-package set of Grovers on it - the "reverse" configuration (they make both) - and they turn just right. I don't think you can take apart and reverse sides of gears to get them to turn in the opposite direction. They're made one way or the other.

[Dale Ludewig]

Paul, I didn't mean that. I didn't make myself clear. And you're right- you can't do what you said. And yes, they do make them both ways.

[Paul Hostetter]

I'm still trying to figure out what's really going on with littvay's mandolin, "an F5 shape mandolin which reportedly has a 1:18 gover tuner." Who reported that? Early Eastman mandolins had proprietary tuners that turned the wrong way. Some photos would help.

[mandroid]

It occurred to me, that most every machine and wood screw is turned clockwise to tighten it ,
but in mandolins we consider clockwise , Backwards.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Lee]

This is a simple one. The mandolin was manufactured for use in the southern hemisphere.

[Jim Hilburn]

I've always been of the opinion that tuners have the gears cut either /// like this or \\\ like this and no amount of dis-assembling and re-assembling is going to change the direction they turn. I even did it once while stuck in a snowstorm just to prove it to myself.
If there's a way to do it I'd like to know.

[buddyellis]

Unless they've changed something recently, grover tuners (the black shafted ones) come in two configurations and BOTH use exactly the same gear machining (lazy design, I guess):

1) 'Vintage' style with the worm gear below the tuner shaft.
2) 'modern' style with the worm gear above the tuner shaft.

#1 turns 'normal' 'guitar' direction.
#2 turns 'backwards' from the normal 'guitar' direction

You can safely and easily reverse these, but the key locations will be wrong on the peghead unless you fill and redrill the holes. #I have had both sets, and out of the box the 'modern' grovers turn backwards. #Reinforcing this, I once ordered a 'modern' set one time only to be shipped the 'vintage' (these turned 'correctly'). #The headstock was drilled for 'modern' holes, and I reversed the gearing (essentially you invert the tuners and move the tuning keys from one side to the other, moving the long keys to the top)

I notice stewmac only appears to sell the 'vintage' set:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop....details (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Mandolin_tuners/1/Grover_F-Style_Mandolin_Tuning_Machines/Pictures.html#details)


P.S. there seems to be a ^#$# of alot of confusion about these even with the vendors.

[buddyellis]

Jim: for these black keyed grovers:

Take the right hand tuner, flip it upside down, and move it to the left hand and vice versa for the left hand. The long keys are now at the bottom, and the short keys are at the top. Invert the location of the keys, keeping the gear and key associated with one another (probably not necessary to associate gear and key, but I do) moving the longer keys back to the top.

The gearing is now reversed from what it was, but also turns the opposite direction from what it previously did. If you order two sets of these tuners, one 'standard' and one 'reversed' you'll see they behave identically to what you will accomplish doing this, one turns backwards (the above the shaft worm gear 'standard' or 'modern' tuners) and one turns 'correctly (the 'vintage' or sometimes called 'reversed' gear tuners -- although this gets confused sometimes.)

[Jim Hilburn]

I am aware you can reverse them in the manner you describe but as you also point out they won't fit the peghead properly and the plates would likely overhang the back of the peghead, especially Grovers.

[buddyellis]

Exactly. #There's no way to 'reverse' the gearing without flipping the worm gear location. #I was just trying to make the point that with those grovers (the black shafted ones) it appears they are IDENTICAL, no matter whether you get the 'vintage' or 'modern' tuner. #All they've done is the above :-) (Lazy manufacturing)

This would explain the 'backwards turning' issue: That is how grover sells them. # I've reverted, for the time being, to drilling 'vintage' styled holes, and not being very satisfied with the midrange availability of 'good' tuning machines. #I bought a set of stewmac Elites, and frankly they are garbage. #EXTREMELY tight, even after spinning them out for a while (It's not the gearing that's tight, it's the nylon bushing on the worm gear -- they turn like #### even with the gear removed from the worm.)

[Dale Ludewig]

I think I'm getting a headache. Grover sells tuners with gear above and gear below. Some configurations don't seem to work when you combine A-style and F-style and still want the whole thing to line up. That was my point. And to me it isn't a problem. Maybe I'm beginning to "be" a headache. This whole discussion should probably be moved over to the Builder's section.

[buddyellis]

Hah dale, you are never a headache, however lazy manufacturers who don't do things 'right' are. #Grover appears to have 'shopped' these out, and got lazy in the process so they wouldn't have to have two different tool configurations on the manufacturing line (it would be a simple fix, really, mill the freaking gears right for both tuner styles). #I think that creates alot of confusion, and for me, has quite possibly turned me off from their product for life. Are there other F-style grover tuners besides the black shafted ones (besides the gibson grovers?)?

[Paul Hostetter]

http://www.lutherie.net/f-5.hdstk.front.both.jpg

http://www.lutherie.net/gear.direction3.jpg