Big mon's axe

[mandozilla]

I was just wondering what today's mandolin world would look like if Bill had played only a, oh say, a Lyon & Healy (or whatever) throughout his long career instead of his Loyd Loar F5? And what you all would be playing right now instead of Gibsons or Gibson clones? What do you think? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[hedding]

wouldn't have made any difference to me. It's the SOUND of Monroe's mandolin that I am after, not what it looks like or which company made it. And from what I have heard Monroe sounded like Monroe on any mandolin, with any type of pick and any type of setup. I would still be chasing that sound.

[Glassweb]

2 things account for Monroe's "sound". that's gotta be 1. the mandolinist 2. the mandolin

sure Bill could make anything sound great, but i sure wish he had his Loar in repair when he recorded "Big Mon" and "Monroe's Hornpipe" for the original Bluegrass Instrumentals album on Decca...

[danb]

Good point separating his personal style from the instrument sound, though I think you need to also give some credit to the instruments for the tone. Bill would definitely still sound like Bill on anything, but he'd sure sound a different kind of the same on a taterbug http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandozilla]

I guess what I mean is would Lyon & Healy (or whatever brand he favored) still be in business? Would Gibson just be making guitars and banjos? Imagine a world without scrolls. Those types of things. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[danb]

Yeah, it certainly boggles the mind. He lent some posthumous (for the style anyway) popularity to a dead instrument. The real heyday of Gibson was 1910-1919 or so.. I think World War 1 was a major disruptive effect on the "let's all sit in the parlor and play stringed instruments" fad. If you think about it.. 70,000 instruments before the Loar period, 10,000 during, and then the depression soon after near killed 'em. I suppose there'd be a lot of copies of any instrument that has a "Signature tone" to it.

Another thing to remember is that most loars don't sound like Bill's did. Seems there are maybe only 3-4 of them with that monroe F5 tone.

[MikeEdgerton]

What if Bill played an Epiphone Mandolin or a Martin Guitar or even a Pacrim Mandolin (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=43365;hl=monroe+and+ep iphone)?

[allenhopkins]

I guess what I mean is would Lyon & Healy (or whatever brand he favored) still be in business? Would Gibson just be making guitars and banjos? Imagine a world without scrolls. Those types of things.
[1] The world wouldn't be entirely "without scrolls"; there were quite a few Gibson F's around, and would have been even if there had been no Bill Monroe.

[2} I think we (understandably) tend to overestimate the influence of Monroe and of bluegrass. #Dave Apollon played a Gibson F, as well as other instruments. #And Gibson wouldn't have kept making mandolins through the mid-20th-century, if all their only customers were country and bluegrass players -- just weren't enough of those. #The mandolin market shrank drastically after World War I, due to changes in musical preferences, but Gibson doggedly kept cranking out a reduced number of mandolins, as well as 5-string "RB" banjos, when a relative few were playing them. #Other companies -- Lyon & Healy is a fine example -- stopped making mandolins entirely; L&H became specialists in orchestral harps.

[3] #We should show a bit of admiration for Gibson, for continuing to produce instruments for niche markets. #There was a point when they might have been on the verge of becoming the "Les Paul Guitar Co." almost exclusively, since the market for Les Pauls was many times that for their acoustic instruments. #But, though quality definitely varied, they never stopped making banjos, mandolins, or acoustic guitars.

[4] #It does amaze me from time to time, to see what a wealth of possibilities the prospective bluegrass (or other) mandolinist has now. #When I first started playing mandolin 38 years ago, there were Gibsons -- period -- once you got above the Harmony/introductory level. #Martin still made some mandolins, though not often seen in bluegrass; there were a a smattering of used/vintage instruments from Strad-O-Lin, Kay, Washburn, Regal, etc. around. #A few Asian imports were just starting to appear. #When I look at the cornucopia of mandolins in all price ranges from which we can choose now, it really is a whole different world.

[f5loar]

When you consider Bill had already gotten use to a Gibson F model with F holes (the '34 F7)with brother Charlie it was just a matter of time before he would latch on to some year of an F5 Gibson. It was Lester Flatt that played a '41 F5 in Charlie Monroe's band and other guys like Charlie Bailey of Bailey brothers had a '26 F5 so having the F5 in Country/Bluegrass music was already happening several years before Monroe landed his first F5. And don't forget his Epiphone model too. While Monroe could not have bought a new F5 in 1945 (none made between 1943 and 1949) finding a used one was no doubt a rare find in 1945 as the majority were still in the hands of the classical/jazz players. Monroe was at the right place at the right time to buy a used '23 F5 and the rest is history. Had it been say a '38 used F5 I have firm belief someone would have handed him a Loar or Fern F5 and he would seek one out after playing one. Back in those days a Gibson F5 was a Gibson F5 regardless of the year made. Because once Monroe found out about the F5 others followed with many year models represented in Bluegrass music from the 20's to the 50's.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If all else were the same other than the make of Mandolin that he ended up playing,i think that we would still be hearing & playing 'His' music today.The fact that he found & played his legendary Gibson is just a huge 'plus point' for us all. There's no doubt at all in my mind that the unique sound of that Mandolin did a heck of a lot for the music just as much as Bill Monroe's musical genius. The 2 things came together in an incredible way. Having listened to Bluegrass music for over 40 years i could tell the sound of that Mandolin with Bill Monroe behind it out of a million others,
Saska

[Ken Olmstead]

My theory, for what its worth, is that it was all about being heard in a time when PA systems were marginal at best. In fact the developement of most instruments that we cherish had a single purpose...volume. The Martin D series guitars, the Mastertone banjo, the dobro, fiddle all about volume. They wern't searching for some "holy grail" tone, they just wanted their music to be heard. I find it completely logical that Monroe played some of those F5s and thought they had what it took to be heard in a string emsemble and started keeping his eyes peeled. If he would have played a Lyon and Healy, that company could be in existence to day. However, artists can give a huge shot in the arm to a name but a company has to be savy with marketing, R&D, production efficiency and changing with the times. Gibson had the right fomulas all around and here they are today!

[MikeEdgerton]

Gibson's survival to now has very little if anything at all to do with Monroe or the mandolin. As much as we'd all like to think differently the mandolin business didn't keep them going through the 50s, 60's, 70s' and into the 80's. They probably didn't sell enough mandolins in those years to pay their healthcare and retirement (if indeed they even offered either) costs, let alone keep the business going. To say L&H would be alive in the form it was when it built mandolins is probably a stretch as well. As popular as the mandolin has become it isn't, and will probably never be what the guitar market is. By the time Bill bought his Loar L&H was a shadow of its former self. What you would see if Bill had played a L&H mandolin is a heck of a lot of copies of L&H mandolins.

[Ken Olmstead]

Yeah Mike, you made the point better than I did. What I was trying to say in my inept way the L&H COULD be around, but it would take having all the attributes of a successful business, which apparently they did not. Not saying they didn't make good products just that it takes more than that to survive for 100 years.

[allenhopkins]

Agree with Mike E, as I often do. #As I said above, Gibson could have dropped almost all of its instrument line other than the Les Paul, and maybe a few jazz guitars, and survived. #(Parenthetically, that's the corporate orthodoxy today: go back to your "core business," get rid of diversity and experimentation, fire as many employees as possible, and maximize bottom line and stock value. #We'll see how this works out in the future.)

While I've taken my shots at "Big G" in the past, I do appreciate their resolve to keep their acoustic lines, and especially "off" instruments like banjos and mandolins, going through economic ups and downs, and the changes in musical fads. #During the "folk boom" of the early '60's, the company probably sold a lot of long-neck banjos, 12-string guitars, and such; then everyone turned to rock and Mike Bloomfield's Les Paul became an icon, much to Gibson's benefit. #

I wonder how much of the current strength of acoustic music in general, and the mandolin in particular, has to do with the seeds planted 45 years ago by the Kingston Trio, Weavers, PPM, Joan Baez, the Highwaymen and the Brothers Four? #As an aging folkie, I know hundreds of people who were "infected" then, and have stayed with folk-based music since, branching out into bluegrass, blues, Celtic, klezmer, singer-songwriter and other genres. #You could make an interesting case that the current richness of acoustic instrument availability, has Dave Guard and Erik Darling to thank, as well as Bill Monroe. #Even if they didn't play mandolin.