what tools to carve a top?

[ecklesweb]

I'm new to carving, but not new to woodworking (I build furniture and did one flat-top mando from a kit).

I'm planning on venturing into carving a top and back for an F5. #What tools do you favor for carving these pieces? #Carving tools like gouges seem a likely way to start. #I've heard a bit about so called "finger planes", though I've never actually laid eyes on one... I presume it must have a convex sole for carving out the inside of the top/back. #Any neat dremel bits or anything else in the power department (this side of a CNC router, that is)?

Also, if you recommend something with a curved blade like a gouge, how do you sharpen it? #Any pointers would be appreciated. FWIW, I'm a Scary Sharp user for my regular bench chisels and plane irons.

Thanks for any pointers.

Jay

[sunburst]

Anything less than Scary Sharp is dull. Spruce, despite it's relative softness is tough and sometimes a little stringy under a dull tool.
Finger planes work amazingly well when properly set up. You can get them with a convex sole or a flat sole, I have one flat and the rest convex.

The one I use the most is the first one I got, and was the only one I had for a while. It's possible to do all the carving of a top and back with that one. It is an Ibex T-180 and has a 12mm blade.

I still use gouges and chisels some, but not as much as I used to as I get more fingerplanes.

Sharpening a gouge is the same as sharpening a flat chisel, except you have to roll the gouge as you pass it along the stone. You'll need a fine slip stone to remove the burr from the inside of the sweep.

I'll defer to others when it comes to power carving tools because I don't do much of that on mandolin plates except for a safety-planer to get me started. The disc sander in the drill press as shown in the Siminoff book will remove a lot of wood in a hurry, but I don't like to use my sharp tools on wood that has been sanded.

[edit] Oh! Almost forgot. Scrapers!
Especially curved scrapers. I use one that is shaped like an egg, but a lot of people use several that are custom ground to the various curves in their tops and backs.
It takes a little practice to learn to sharpen them, you might already know how, but they work very well in Maple, and OK in spruce.

[Chris Baird]

One medium sized high quality gouge will work. Also a finger plane from stewmac.com and a set of scrapers will do the job. I sharpen the outside of my gouges with a water stone by running the edge along the stone in a parrell with the cutting edge motion, aka perpendicular to how you would sharpen a flat chisel. Then I find a piece of wooden dowel that is the same internal diameter as the inside of the gouge and use polishing compound with the dowel to polish up the inside.

[craigw]

Jay, I was at a carving workshop last week put on by Michael Lewis. His style seems consistant with Sunburst and among other tools he uses a selection of Ibex thumb planes. Try www.internationalviolin.com for the best deal on them.

[BruceD]

I use a reproduction of a stanley 100-1/2 hollowing palm plane. 3 1/2" long with a 7/8" wide blade. It works so well I never use a gouge, except for carving the scroll. A local luthier turned me on to it years ago, it is about all he uses too. Woodcraft sells one, here is a link to it (or go to www.woodcraft.com and search on hollowing plane):

http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcra....3685C1A (http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/product_family.asp?family%5Fid=551&gift=False&0=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D10000%26Tree%3D%2CDepar tments&1=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D1037%26menu%5Fid%3D%26T ree%3D0%2CPlanes%20%26%20Spokeshaves&2=dept%2Easp%2Cdept%5Fid%3D2118%26menu%5Fid%3D%26T ree%3D1%2CSpecialty%20Planes&Gift=False&mscssid=CF1475938670411A978E5DBAD3685C1A)

Also, I carve the outside proflie first (some do this the other way around - inside first), then set up a jig on the drill press and drill bunches of holes in the inside, then using that plane, carve out the waste. The jig is just a dowel in a board clamped to the drill press table directly under the bit. Then set the drill press depth stop to your maxium thickness (plus some saftey factor) and go to town. That way you have a rough guide to depth, just carve to the bottom of the holes. After that, then you can crafully graduate the top/back.

I have seen various pictures of this method around, pretty widely known - not sure if it's in the Siminoff book or where I've seen, but look around and I'm sure you can find a picture if my dicription is lacking.

Good luck and have fun!

[timeoutlaw59]

There is a good question ecklesweb I to have been wondering what everyone used as far as finger plane size and blade type.what you use each size for and the blade type used? And as far as carving tools go what does a person really need without spending alot of money on tools that they may never use.Is there a suggested brand one might purchase and and what would be the style one would want? I know there is many blade types that is why i would like to know what type of blade i really need when doing the f-5 top and back.

[sunburst]

timeoutlaw, The Ibex that I mentioned earlier will get you by. I understand from John Monteleone that some of the newer Ibex planes are poorly made and will not set up properly, so don't be afraid to send one back if it doesn't work well.
The convex sole with the curved blade will do the inside or outside of the plate.
A tooth blade can be helpfull for avoiding tearout in figured maple.
A smaller plane can be helpful in the scroll area of an F.
Larger planes are faster.

Any high quality carving tools will be fine. I have no brand recomendations. The one that feels the best to you is probably the best tool.
My medium sized gouge, like Cris recomended, is a long bent gouge. I prefer that, but you might not. Most of my best chisels and gouges are from auctions and the brand is obscure and unimportant.

[Luthier Vandross]

I use mean assed scrapers, much like the red devil type, a handle, with a flat, and curved edge, the fine work is done with scrapers that are no more than piece of saw blades, cut up, and edged.

The rest is a rounded block with paper.


M

[labraid]

Hey guys,
Thought I'd chime in well... I'm working on my first carved top (I specialize in flat-tops but hey, what the heck...). I found it interesting working with the gouge, I had quite a fun time. It's a Robert Sorby, probably a 3/4" diameter... First recommendation with the gouge is to cut only cross-grain and not with the grain. Working cross grain is so smooth, has a very pleasing sound (esp on spruce), will avoid almost all tearout, and helps develop that intuition that a woodworker needs. I did the entire top in about 5 combined hours, which I thought was pretty good but maybe you'll all scoff at the slow-poke, hehe. Here it is so far:

http://www.bfolk.com/cafe/piccolo_ip_2.jpg

So after the gouges, I used my one and only Ibex, a 10mm blade. I found it tough to go cross grain here because the plane gets clogged very fast, so I went with the grain, always following the slope of the grain, and it was sweet, sweet cutting. Incidentally, I use an 8.5" radius on my fretboards and found the radiused sanding block ideal for resharpening the Ibex blade, 600 then 1200 wet/dry paper then strop.. Next were scrapers which tear out the spruce badly unless you (ok, I) use them in a very different way than normal. Lay the sharpened and burmished edge against the spruce so that the entire blade lays almost flat against the wood, then push on a skew and it does real nice, better than the traditional way in my humble opinion. I dunno why but I suspect it has something to do with my curved scraper blade being too curved, thereby applying too much pressure on a concentrated area...I don't have a custom one for arch-tops yet (good idea to get/make one!).
Anyhow, finally the sandpaper. If you do it by hand only, move your hand as fast as your swollen tennis elbow will let you, back and forth. Going slowly only allows your fingers to fall into (follow) and sand further the very imperfections you're trying to eliminate. Going by electric rotary methods is sure faster, but as for me, I'm scared the Chinese government might find me too useful and want to import me to one of their factories. Gotta keep away...

Thanks for readin' me blabble,
Brian

[ecklesweb]

So in terms of gouges, what sweep(s) and blade size(s) makes a good utility player? #Is it easier to deal with a shallow sweep #3/4/5 or a near-semi-circular #9? #Easier to deal with a wide blade or a narrower one? #

I'm thinking I'll start out with a gouge, just because I have a thing for chisels of all types. #If it doesn't work out, at least I added something neat to my collection. #Then I'll try the finger plane.

Jay

[labraid]

Boy, if you like chisels of all types, woohoo! Get one of each, by golly (budget permitting, parental discretion advised). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Really, my 1" diameter did the trick for me. I don't know about sweeps and semis, I'm still trying to figure out my my foot doesn't match an imperial foot...
Shutting up now, hehe.

Brian

[Nolan]

I bought a couple of Flexcut gouges from a local woodworking store for my first practice top. One has a pretty good curve to it and the other is almost flat. The curved one will remove material in a hurry and the flat one cleans everything up really nice. They are very very sharp.
The store told me to sharpen them just cut a trough in a piece of wood with the gouge and then fill it with rouge and draw it back towards yourself. It seems to work pretty good. Be very carefull when using these! One nick on the side of your thumb can send you to the emergency room and maybe the operating table to get tendons re-attached.
I also bought some scrapers and the sharpening tool for those but as of yet have not figured out how to get a good edge on them.

[sledge]

I have used the flex cut gouges on two tops and they work great. I get mine sharp enough to shave a bald patch in my arm with one pass, no pressure.

On the other hand, I have some maple from hell purchased from Don M out in Colorado. This stuff eats gouges for lunch. This stuff is hard. Did I mention it's hard? It gives a jointer/planer a pretty tough row to hoe as well.

sledge

[austin]

Jay,
Don't overthink it. It is your #1, after all. In a nutshell, any really sharp gouge and a french curve scraper are your friends. As you go on you will find what works well for you personally. (I would advise you spend the 30-40 bucks on a finger plane though, if nothing else, it gives you an alternative when your hands get tired from the gouge or blistered from the plane)
my.02
-austin

[joshags03]

You can speed the process with a drill press and angle grinder equipped with a sanding disc. You can rough out the plates and finish up with finger planes and scraper blades.