Is this englemann? [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

Jim Hilburn

Jun-13-2008, 8:55pm

Today was a great day to get out of the shop and head up to Rocky Mountain National Park. That's about 40 minutes from my house.
We went up the Wild Basin trail. At about 1 1/2 miles in, a very large tree had very recently blown down and had blocked the trail. They came in and cut out a slice to re-open the trail. This is at about 9000'. For scale, at the cut it's about 26-28" in diameter.

Jim Hilburn

Jun-13-2008, 8:57pm

This is the piece they removed. Probably 9-10' long. You can't really tell from this shot but in the background the tree fell from the other side of the creek in the background which is really roaring with snowmelt and the thickest part is out over the water.

Jim Hilburn

Jun-13-2008, 9:03pm

I feel like I should know more than I do about the trees that I make mandolins with but I don't. If I had my tree identifier book with me there are some tests to determine what it is if you have the needles in hand or cones. Too early for cones but here are the needles. I'm pretty sure it's not Ponderosa. Too high and the needles are too short.
You can tell from this pic that the tree hasn't been down too long.

Jim Hilburn

Jun-13-2008, 9:08pm

I don't know what the park service would have to say about it but if they would allow it to be removed it would be quite a job. I think horses or mules would be needed and it would be best to cut it up on the spot.
It doesn't appear to have the twist that is so common on so much of the downed timber in the area. And the growth rings look incredibly consistent.

sunburst

Jun-13-2008, 10:32pm

I can name almost any tree around here where I live, winter, summer, whatever, but when I go out west I feel down right stupid. I can't tell you what any tree is (almost).
Bruce will probably be able to tell you what that is though.

As for getting the wood out, permission might be the hardest part.
Steve McMinn used to saw lengths and split bolts wherever the trees were, then get a bunch of young college age types to help carry the split bolts out on back pack frames.

I've walked through cuts like that in windfall red spruce in the Smokey Mountains a bunch of times. There's about zero chance of getting wood out of a national park.

Spruce

Jun-13-2008, 10:39pm

Yeah, it looks like Engelmann to me....

Although technically I guess it could also be in the range of Picea pungens....

I've lugged billets a lot further than 1-1/2 miles...
It helps to think that each loaded backpack is 2-300 bucks... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

TomMorici

Jun-13-2008, 11:06pm

I agree it looks like Engelmann to me also.
May I suggest a landscapers wagon since it is on a trail.
In montana I would go for a firewood permit to go after something like that.

Tom

Spruce

Jun-13-2008, 11:34pm

"In montana I would go for a firewood permit to go after something like that. "

Well, it is in a National Park...

Some NPs allow downfalls to be taken for firewood (Kings Canyon comes to mind) but others don't...

I used to make a living cutting Engelmann off the highway that runs though what is now North Cascades National Park. #
The minute it became a NP, firewood cutting became illegal...

Check with Rocky Mountain National Park and see what they have to say....
It varies a lot from place to place....

I think Simeon Chambers (http://www.rockymountaintonewood.com/main.sc) might get some of his wood out of the park, so who knows?

Jim Hilburn

Jun-14-2008, 9:50am

I guess you could put these guys we met along the trail to work. There were 2 but my camera was too slow to get both of them.
This is a very popular trail and I really doubt the park service would want anyone chainsawing and wood splitting and generally detracting from the serenity of the wilderness for fun and profit. The trail has many rustic improvements like water channels with small bridges and rock steps that could be damaged by trying to drag out the whole thing.

sunburst

Jun-14-2008, 10:01am

A cross cut saw is quieter, and somewhat easier to tote to '9000 feet than a big ol' heavy chainsaw.
Wow, they allow pack animals? Permission really is starting to sound like the hardest part!

Spruce

Jun-14-2008, 10:27am

"The trail has many rustic improvements like water channels with small bridges and rock steps that could be damaged by trying to drag out the whole thing. "

No no no... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

You only want about 1/3 of that log at most...

Select the top sirloin pieces, wax 'em up on-site, and pack 'em out...

And the best pieces are out of view in your pics--in the butt section....

But don't count your mandos before they arch. #The odds of that log having some twist in it are still pretty high...

But do it soon. #The log has larger than normal sapwood, and that will start to discolor over the next few months, thus lowering your odds on a good count...

And then there's the bugs... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Mike Black

Jun-25-2008, 9:34am

Jim, what is happened with this? Is there an update?

Jim Hilburn

Jun-25-2008, 9:45am

I didn't do anything more than post about it here. I like the concept of cutting and hauling your own tonewood but in reality I'm just not the guy that's going to do it. I'll just wait for the UPS truck instead.

oldwave maker

Jun-25-2008, 9:46am

Sure looks like colorado engelmann bark, I tried to photo a live one on the way to telluride last week, didnt see any close to the hiway at 65mph....I'd guess the odds of runout in any random trail sample would be 99%, theres one sure way to find out!

oldebeneezerscrooge

Jun-25-2008, 2:28pm

Based on the location and species range overlay, most definitely Engelmann. Sometimes the Engelmann and White spruce hybridize, but it is pretty south for Picea glauca. It would be a rewarding proposition to get something out of a log like that.

Jim Hilburn

Jun-25-2008, 3:06pm

Bill, I just had a discussion with a friend about why these trees like to twist the way they do. Most of the downed timber in this area is absolutely spiraled. Corkscrewed. Barbershop poled.
He said Eno Mills, the founder of Rocky Mountain Park thought it had to do with how rocky the soil was where the tree was growing.
This tree didn't have any evidence of the spiral but then it still had all it's bark.

Spruce

Jun-25-2008, 3:35pm

"Based on the location and species range overlay, most definitely Engelmann."

Based on what "range overlay"??
The range of Blue Spruce (Picea pungens)--as I mentioned--rolls right though that area...

It's hard to get a reading from the pics, but I wouldn't rule out Blue Spruce as, at least, a possibility....

"Sometimes the Engelmann and White spruce hybridize, but it is pretty south for Picea glauca."

Yeah, like 800 miles or so??

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/e_stamp/mPglauc.jpg

"Most of the downed timber in this area is absolutely spiraled. Corkscrewed. Barbershop poled."

Most Engelmann in any area has twist in it....
I'd guess it's about 5% of trees that have no twist whatsoever, which is what we're after....

"This tree didn't have any evidence of the spiral but then it still had all it's bark."

It's kinda tricky to gauge twist without cutting into it, but not impossible.
The trick is to use your brain and not your heart...

As mentioned, the best way is to just dig into it. #Split up a few chunks, check for split, compression graining, discoloration, pitch pockets, rot, etc. etc. etc., and go from there...

That's why I like working with windfalls, and--in over 30 years of milling Engelmann--have never cut one down....

Tim McTigue

Jun-25-2008, 5:13pm

Seeing as how there are some folks here who really seem to know their trees, and hoping this isn't a thread hijack, I'd like to ask about a tree in my front yard. Truth is, I'm a real idjut when it comes to trees, but I've always wondered if this might be a Spruce, especially since I became interested in lutherie. It's currently about 2.5' across at the base, and taller than the house, which I estimate makes it about 25' high or so. If it does turn out to be a variety that's good for making instruments, I'd keep that in mind, we think we might want to cut it down at some point, it's not the greatest front-yard tree, and if at least some of the wood could be harvested for use, instead of just burned in the fireplace, that would be cool. I've put some pics up in my personal webspace, but I'll just link to 'em here, since they're kind of large (800X600, but less than 80k)...
First picture (http://home.cogeco.ca/~guitartim/images/tree1.jpg)

Second picture (http://home.cogeco.ca/~guitartim/images/tree2.jpg)

Tjord picture (http://home.cogeco.ca/~guitartim/images/tree3.jpg)

Thanks,

Spruce

Jun-25-2008, 5:55pm

It's firewood, and not very good firewood at that.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Stephanie Reiser

Jun-25-2008, 6:11pm

I agree with Bruce:
The knots down low on the trunk where the branches died are way too close together. And as for firewood, well, as someone who lives in Maine and heats with wood, you don't want to use softwood for anything except kindling.
What you have there is a typical "front-yard" tree. I believe the best trees for milling are the ones who live where there is competition for sun light (forest).

Woody Turner

Jun-25-2008, 6:20pm

Tim,

Most yard trees make poor lumber. In fact, most sawmills refuse to take them because metal (fasteners, bullets, etc.) and associated stain are often inside. (I pulled more than 2 dozen nails out of one piece of maple burl from city property.) #More importantly, trees exposed to sunlight in an open area (unlike the deep forest) tend to sprout branches low to the ground, as in your case. That means you get lots of knots and associated checking.

Spruce

Jun-25-2008, 6:49pm

"Most yard trees make poor lumber. "

OK, here's how to add 10,000 jobs to the nation's economy...

Every town in the country should have an outfit that salvages the valuable trees that we've nurtured over their 100 year life span in the thousands of tree farms (i.e. "cities") scattered all over the land...

From rosewood that is now pushing 24" in diameter on the street where I grew up on in Whittier, California, to the tons of interesting trees that blew down in Florida and Louisiana during the hurricanes, to huge Silver Maples that are commonly taken out due to their trait of invading sewer lines, to the many curly maple street trees I've milled for violins, these things are valuable, and hardly "poor lumber"...

Flitch cut them to retain their tree-like appearance, and label them "4th and Main" or "617 Chester St.", and sell them as the whole tree only...

Cabinet and musical instrument makers love to build with wood that has a story, and this business model has proven to be a success in the 2-3 towns I know of that have these kind of "urban sawmills"...

Even that spruce that Tim posted a pic of would make nice paneling, with all those lovely knots...

A good metal detector steers you easily clear of the nails, but glass insulators can be tough on a blade... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

OK, enough hijacking.....
Whose gonna go grab that Engelmann/Blue in Colorado??

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/e_stamp/DCP_1603.jpg

Tim McTigue

Jun-25-2008, 7:07pm

Thanks, guys, I just learned a heap! And Bruce, that's an amazing suggestion, I hope it catches on. At least my mind will be clear when we cut down the spruce. Now, the cherry tree out back, there may just be a little usable wood in it, but very little, I'm guessing...

Woody Turner

Jun-25-2008, 7:11pm

"Every town in the country should have an outfit that salvages the valuable trees that we've nurtured over their 100 year life span in the thousands of tree farms (i.e. "cities") scattered all over the land..."

One place on the East Coast that serves this function is Seneca Creek Joinery (www.woodsurgeon.com), run by Chris Holmgren (NFI). He runs a vertically integrated wood products operation that takes wood from all over Maryland and converts it to an amazing range of output--from mulch and stove pellets to logs and lumber to reproduction 18th century furniture and domestic implements (Mt. Vernon has commissioned pieces from him). His philosophy: there's a use for all wood. Chris definitely represents a new breed. Not only does he have a comprehensive approach; he also has secured state funding to promote regional networking. Onward and upward, then!

On the other hand--I'm saying this on the basis of 28 years of salvaging wood as a professional woodturner--most people really don't have a sense of what to keep or bring home once a tree of interest has fallen. Students often bring me pieces that are hopeless except as firewood: heart checks, large bark inclusions, multiple crotches, logs with no bark but lots of surface checks and sap stain, etc., etc. In the end, the trick is knowing what to leave by the side of the road or in the tree surgeon's discard pile.

oldwave maker

Jul-20-2008, 5:02pm

Ol' Georg Engelmann hisself used St Louis as a home base, John Griffin at Old Standard has a relationship with all the tree removal outfits in St Loo, a town where folks have only been planting stuff since the late 1700's. Buying from Bruce, John, and Musser is still a great deal for this slacker no matter what they charge, compared to the energy involved in getting the right stuff yourself. Hugged this engelmann at about 9800' on the way down from the top of the tram at snowbird in utah last week.

Jim Hilburn

Jul-20-2008, 6:35pm

The guys at Old Standard just sent me a couple of Englemann tops that are just gorgeous and apparently they don't have much left.
I was suprised to find out they had gotten it in Colorado. Somewhere near Steamboat Springs.

Spruce

Jul-21-2008, 10:05am

"Somewhere near Steamboat Springs."

Wow. #That's impressive.

I scoured that area, and used to drive snowplow on Rabbit Ear's Pass right above Steamboat. #
Never saw anything that would make an ukulele....

John gets around....!

Paul Hostetter

Jul-21-2008, 8:04pm

He didn't say the trees grew near Steamboat Springs, he just said they got the wood there! Kinda like German spruce.

Jim Hilburn

Jul-11-2009, 12:04pm

It was 13 months ago that I posted this thread. We went back to Wild Basin yesterday partly because we got too late a start last year and didn't get to Ouzel Falls and also because of the amount of snow we got this year the creeks and falls are really roaring.
And of course there was my curiosity about that downed englemann. If you go back to the pictures I posted at the beginning there's the section they cut out to open up the trail. Well it's gone. The rest of the tree is still there, and here's a shot from yesterday to give a perspective of how it came down. I should have had Pat stand in the shot for perspective but that dirtpile across the creek that came up with the roots, that's probably 8' high and the diameter of the tree where its cut is probably 28-30".
So the missing section was about 10-12' long and there's no evidence that it was cut up on the spot where it was last year, it just looks like someone picked it up and made off with it whole. If the park service took it I don't know how but I'd still guess that's whats most likely. It's about a mile and a half down to the trailhead. It would have been quite a job to remove it.
For anyone going to Rockygrass, this is the N. St. Vrain creek, the same one that goes through the festival grounds, but it does go into Buttonrock Res. first. The picture didn't capture just how much water is running under that downed tree.

Rick Turner

Jul-11-2009, 9:00pm

Luthiers in black helicopters...

Jim Hilburn

Jun-28-2010, 4:14pm

I went back up this trail again this year and the water is just crazy from the big snowpack and high temperatures.
After being down for 2 years now right by the trail a lot of people have sat on it and tied there shoes and the bark has been worn away. unfortunately like so much of the timber in this area this tree has the dreaded twist. This is where runout comes from. For all that longing and thinking of how to retrieve it it just wouldn't have been worth it.

Grommet

Jun-28-2010, 6:34pm

Great story Jim,

And even though the tree turned out to be be twisted...the story surely connected with all of us who would like to think that good tonewoods or good boat lumber lurk just around the next turn in the trail. Wish someone could enlighten us on whether the NPS would have permmitted the removal.

I've woked on several environmental projects associated with timber sales on USFS land. They contract out parcels to lumber cutting outfits and also contract out the environmental studies that take into account habitat impacts, direct impacts from access roads etc., etc. On those properties such wood might already be spoken for.

But NPS has a different approach to land management than the Multiple Use approach expressed in USFS policies. They are probably much less likely to contract out timber parcels for harvest, but might do some contracting for removal of buggy trees or hazards. I'm guessing it would be tough to get a permit to remove that one good windfall, hopefully someone who has tried throught proper channels can provide the real answer.

Scott

Paul Hostetter

Jun-28-2010, 10:40pm

Back to the matter of tree identification, I'd just key it out the way biologists do, rather than relying on indistinct photos and uncertain characteristics like the look of the bark and so on. Out on my edge there's a little tree finder booklet you can buy which enables you to zero in real quickly on nearly anything, from trees to nondescript shrubs.

http://rgr-static1.tangentlabs.co.uk/images/bau/97809125/9780912550060/0/0/plain/pacific-coast-tree-finder-a-pocket-manual-for-identifying-pacific-coast-trees.jpg

It allows you hone the search based on critical things like needle shape, numbers of needles per bundle, etc. It's not strictest academic procedure, but it gets the job done. Here's a site that does Rocky Mountain trees well online: http://westernexplorers.us/RkyMtnTrees.html. It also has a page on telling the Rocky spruces apart from one another.

John Arnold

Jul-01-2010, 10:21pm

unfortunately like so much of the timber in this area this tree has the dreaded twist. This is where runout comes from. For all that longing and thinking of how to retrieve it it just wouldn't have been worth it.

I don't see enough spiral in that photo to be a problem. I have cut red spruce with up to 2" of spiral in 2 feet.
Runout is controlled by the sawyer, after the billets are split. If you saw parallel to the split at the eventual joining edge of the tops, there won't be any visible runout.

Bernie Daniel

Jul-05-2010, 12:57pm

"Most yard trees make poor lumber. "

OK, here's how to add 10,000 jobs to the nation's economy...

Every town in the country should have an outfit that salvages the valuable trees ...., to huge Silver Maples that are commonly taken out due to their trait of invading sewer lines, to the many curly maple street trees... [and] ..hardly "poor lumber"...

I was not aware that silver maple was used for fine wood work -- is it used for instruments? We have three of them messing up our main line -- come and tak'em. They are totally twisted however you can see it bark or no.

Spruce

Jul-05-2010, 1:58pm

I was not aware that silver maple was used for fine wood work -- is it used for instruments?

Gibson used it quite a bit during the '30-'50s for archtop mandos and guitars...

Nice looking wood--kinda quilt-like--and it really pleases the folks who like lightweight wood....

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/e_stamp/39L5P_bkcu2.jpg

Bernie Daniel

Jul-05-2010, 3:31pm

Gibson used it quite a bit during the '30-'50s for archtop mandos and guitars...

Nice looking wood--kinda quilt-like--and it really pleases the folks who like lightweight wood....

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22/e_stamp/39L5P_bkcu2.jpg

Wow! I was just looking at buying a Super 400 day before yesterday and it must have had a silver maple back as it looked just like that. I had no clue -- good to know.

But in retrospect we've had a couple of limbs blow out of these trees and that wood sure is white. Do not much care for the trees themselves -- we have to have the sewer line to the street cleaned every two years.

OT: Like to talk to the guy who planted our yard 35 years ago -- silver maples in front and a sweet gum and shingle oak next to the house in the back.

lenf12

Jul-06-2010, 11:22am

Jim Hilburn

Jul-06-2010, 4:34pm

John, that's very informative about how you saw the wood. The only time I joined a top with wood I had milled myself was a Blue Spruce from a friends cabin which is not far from the downed tree in my pictures. It had the spiral growth pattern and all I did was split it so when I re-sawed it for the top I got horrible run-out. But I see that if I had sawn it along the line of the spiral I could have gotten much closer to each side being the same.