Framus museum website

[delsbrother]

Martin's post in the TG forum reminded me about this...

For those who haven't been there lately, you should check out the Framus Museum Website. (http://www.framus-vintage.de/modules/news/NewsList.php?typ=NEWS_VINTAGE&katID=4986#) They've completely re-done it and added tons of great photos. One of the members of the Steel Guitar Forum clued me in to this place, mainly for the wild and wacky steel guitars - but it also has (along with the Krauss tenors) some amazing mandolins. Here's my favorite, the Black Rose Baby Deluxe:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m278/durbien/6-53-Black_Rose_Baby_de_Luxe-Mandol.jpg

I have no idea how these sound, but they look amazing. Kind of like those horrible Galveston emandos, except big, hollow, and.... KOOOOOOL!

Martin, have you ever run across one of these?

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks for the link -- I had visited the old site, but the revamp is nice. Most of those wild and wonderful Framuses do pop up on Ebay Germany with some regularity. Apart from their rather pedestrian "traditional" mandolins, Framus seem to have favoured the cat's eye soundhole. Strangely, some of these have only one of them.

I haven't personally played any of these, although I do have a very nice anonymous German guitar-shaped archtop mandola (but not a Framus, and probably not a Hoyer either).

I have to say that the Black Rose Baby Deluxe is rather eclipsed by the non-Deluxe Black Rose Baby, which has an extra soundhole: a round one to go with the two cat's eyes. Doesn't have that funky cutaway, though.

Martin

[delsbrother]

Yeah, it was a toss-up. But I'm American, so I like everything DeLuxe. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

The regular one just seems so wrong - wouldn't the vibrating area of the top be something the size of a banjo-uke once all the holes were cut out? That color combo is sharp, though.

The styling is something else! Maybe a little Domra influence in the rounded, onion-shaped body? It's as if a Gretsch Synchromatic and a Brazilian bandolim had a wild affair in Rio... (And their resulting love children were born in Germany. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

Can you imagine whipping one of them out in your next Choro circle?

If you see either of these up for auction please let me know!

[Jim Garber]

It is hard to tell from the photos, but do these have radiussed fretboards? It almost looks like the Deluxe has a sharper radius and narrower but that might just be the photography.

[fatt-dad]

I had a Framus mandolin for a while. Here's a photo.

f-d

[Martin Jonas]

Jim --

Yes, I think they are both radiussed. Here is another photo of the De Luxe which shows the saddle to have a very distinct curvature. Also note those funky contoured tuner buttons. I wonder whether they used the same self-destructing material as Kluson did at the time.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

... and the same angle for the standard, also showing a radiussed saddle.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

If you see either of these up for auction please let me know!
No Black Rose at the moment, but here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320258825537) is a 1973 Graziella, at 56 Euro with two days to go. Note the bolt-on neck and their rather brutal-looking variation on the Fender string tree.

Martin

[Steve L]

I love the look of these things.

[oldwave maker]

Thanks for the link, I've played a cutaway framus upright for decades, gave $150 for it in a nearby ghost town, but had to decorate it meself! "peghead" shot located in another thread...

[Fretbear]

#Note the bolt-on neck and their rather brutal-looking variation on the Fender string tree.
Brutal does not begin to describe it; you thought your mandolin wouldn't stay in tune...I tamed one with individual GraphTec string trees from StewMac.
Loudest mandolin I ever heard. The "Beowulf" tailpiece went straight onto my bouzouki as it (only) accepted ball-end strings and was the coolest thing ever.

[Fretbear]

Thanks for the link, I've played a cutaway framus upright for decades, gave $150 for it in a nearby ghost town, but had to decorate it meself! "peghead" shot located in another thread...
Nice miniature Tibetan prayer flags, Bill....

[BlueMountain]

These are cool-looking mandolins. How do the various models sound compared to what we are more used to? Are they good mandolins? Or are they the Kays and Harmonys of Germany? I've' never played one.

[Paul Kotapish]

I love that Black Baby Rose model! If I'm reading the museum site properly, they haven't made them since the early '60s. Too bad. I'd love to find one of those.

[Martin Jonas]

As I said, these do come around on Ebay Germany with some regularity: see this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300225969657) auction for a non-deluxe Black Rose Baby which ended two weeks ago, at a winning bid of 252 Euro (about $400). It would appear that "Black Rose" does not refer to the colour: this one isn't black but reddish-brown with a subtle sunburst. Slightly different headstock shape, too, and a striking red boundary on the fretboard, with matching red tuner buttons. All three soundholes present, though.

Martin

[delsbrother]

Ack! Martin, go back in time and get that for me, willya? I've known about these things for ages, just needed your Peter Krauss post to shake them loose from the cobwebs of my mind...

There's a song in there somewhere. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Joel Spaulding]

Bill B - Love the sticker on the bass. I have an old Korg organ that is need of a pale ale holder and if I still smoked, a plug in lighter - don't know how that would affect the electronics.... a way-backburner project for my electrician/woodworking father. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Martin Jonas]

Ack! Martin, go back in time and get that for me, willya? I've known about these things for ages, just needed your Peter Krauss post to shake them loose from the cobwebs of my mind...
Well, I did post here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=50236;st=175) about that Black Rose Baby while the auction was still in progress...

Incidentally, I think the "Baby" part of the name derives from the fact that Framus also had two archtop guitars with similar styling, the Black Rose, and the Black Rose De Luxe (the latter coming in four variants). The guitars are relatively boring, though, compared to the Baby mandos.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Well, you all have a chance to get one of these in this no reserve auction for this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/v-Framus-Jazz-Mandolin-gibson-Black-Rose-Baby-v_W0QQitemZ160248808144QQihZ006QQcategoryZ10

179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Framus Black Rose Baby</a>. In fact I think this is the same one that Martin noted -- it too is missing that same a string knob. The seller says he will supply a white knob for replacement purposes.

Personally I think the black version works aesthetically better than the red one. This one makes my teeth hurt.

Still... at the moment, only $1.00. :-)

[Zako]

So...how's the quality on those things?

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, Jim. Yes, I'm almost certain that that one is the very same mandolin. This Ebay seller, "Franksmusic", specialises in buying mandolins and waldzithers on Ebay Germany and then immediately reselling them on Ebay US or Ebay UK. These instruments are fairly abundant in Germany, but it is quite a bit of hassle for non-German speakers to deal with the auction and (in particular) the payment. Buying from Franksmusic avoids that, as he speaks English and takes Paypal, and he usually has much better photos and descriptions than the original private sellers, which is why he tends to make a very tidy profit. We will have to see whether he will on this one -- I thought the original auction price was fairly respectable.

I think I agree with Jim that the red colour scheme is a bit garish, but I guess that's part of the appeal.

Anyway, you all have the chance to let your money speak now...

Martin

[delsbrother]

This is the time when I regret making the OP, right? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BlueMountain]

Martin, I'd still like to know more about the sound of these. I've never heard one. How would you rate them?

[Martin Jonas]

No idea how they sound -- as I've said up in my first post in this thread, I've never played a Framus. My German archtop mandola is a fine-sounding instrument, and I would think that's broadly the same style. It sounds like Fretbear may have personal experience of playing a Framus mandolin.

Framus in general made a pretty wide range of instruments, from massmarket to professional grade, and they had a number of pros endorsing them. German archtop guitars of the 1950s do have somewhat of a cult following, and that very much includes Framus along with Hoyer, Hoefner, Otwin and a few others. The Black Rose Baby was supposedly their top-of-the-line mandolin (and was based on one of their higher-grade guitars, the Black Rose), so it may well be quite good.

Martin

[Fretbear]

I have never seen those Black Rose Baby Deluxe models before this thread, but those orange Graciella's are not that uncommon. I was given one once as it could not be tuned with the strings bracketed as they were and after extending the neck by removing the neck bolt and refitting it, it sounded really good for what it was. The bridge also had to be replaced. The body is a good bit deeper than on a standard mandolin and with the F-holes, they can have a unique and powerful sound if you can make them playable.

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, Jim. Yes, I'm almost certain that that one is the very same mandolin. This Ebay seller, "Franksmusic", specialises in buying mandolins and waldzithers on Ebay Germany and then immediately reselling them on Ebay US or Ebay UK. These instruments are fairly abundant in Germany, but it is quite a bit of hassle for non-German speakers to deal with the auction and (in particular) the payment. Buying from Franksmusic avoids that, as he speaks English and takes Paypal, and he usually has much better photos and descriptions than the original private sellers, which is why he tends to make a very tidy profit. We will have to see whether he will on this one -- I thought the original auction price was fairly respectable.
Looks like the flip worked for Franksmusic: winning bid was $663, a profit of around $260. I'd be quite curious to hear whether it plays nice -- is the winner here on the Cafe? If so, can we have a report?

Martin

[delsbrother]

Not me, unfortunately. Martin, I would gladly pay YOU for this "flip" service - with the added benefit being you would get to try them out before shipping them stateside...

[Martin Jonas]

As promised, these do come up with reasonable frequency on Ebay Germany: here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120285661611) is another Red Rose Baby. Different colour scheme again, and rather more pleasing than the previous Ebay one.

Martin

[Rick Crenshaw]

If you see either of these up for auction please let me know!
No Black Rose at the moment, but here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320258825537) is a 1973 Graziella, at 56 Euro with two days to go. #Note the bolt-on neck and their rather brutal-looking variation on the Fender string tree.

Martin
I bought the same model (Graziella) Framus that J.Mark Lane sold on the Classifieds not too long ago. The tailpiece is slightly different as it is just a wire harness and a straight bar across. Also, it doesn't have the reddish burst, but is just the dark honey colored top. #I was looking for a Harmony type acoustic mandolin to play blues on. #It actually sounds pretty good and though not as loud as my F's, it has pretty fair volume. #It is not thin sounding at all and has a kind of an edge to the tone while still sounding fairly full. #I'd say it's pretty good for my intended purposes. #Not a vintage Gibson, which is what I will get one day, but between it and the National I bought off the Classifieds, I'm in good shape for old blues classics.

My Framus has finish cracks all over and there is only the slightest of top 'flattening' (I won't call it sinkage). #It's holding up fine with medium guage strings. I'm happy with it for what I paid.

[Martin Jonas]

I was just leaving through some CDs at the local record shop in my lunch break, and came across a cover photo of Ira Louvin playing what looks very much like a guitar-shaped Framus mandolin, blond, slotted tuners, cat's-eye soundholes. The closest model on the Framus Museum web site is the Cinderella, although that one is a 12-string, and Ira plays an 8-string -- probably one of the models that doesn't have a photo on the web.

The actual I saw was on the back cover of the "The Essential Louvin Brothers" CD, but it's clearly from the same session as the two cover shots below, both of which also show the Framus (?).

Anyway, that should get Framus some purists stred cred...

Martin

[Dagger Gordon]

I had a Framus for a while when I started. Wasn't too bad, but I gave it to my sister. Last time I saw it it seemed to have collapsed and was unplayable.

Got me started though. Can't say I would recommend it particularly.

[Martin Jonas]

Ebay Germany keeps proving me right: here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230289400925) is yet another Black Rose Baby, currently at 35.50 Euro. The seller claims to have played it until recently, and that it's ready to go, although given that one tuner button is missing, I'm not sure how accurate that is. The pickguard is non-original (made by the seller himself).

If this stays reasonable, it might be a good option for those US Cafe members who were curious -- unlike most German Ebay sellers, this one accepts Paypal and is willign to post worldwide.

Martin

[Paul Hostetter]

I own a Black Rose Baby, non-cutaway but fancier than the one on the museum website, with a red sunburst. It's all plywood and sounds terrible. The neck is also extremely narrow, appropriate for three courses of strings, so despite having no sound to speak of, it's also no fun to play. Looks really good on the wall however.

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, Paul -- that does answer at least one question. I've never been particularly tempted anyway (not quite my aesthetics), and rather less so now.

Martin

[delsbrother]

Another dream crushed by the bitter taste of reality. :crying: