My issue with gibson

[Gary Hedrick]

Take a look at the Distressed Model Ricky Skaggs on Ebay. Take a look at the back and the gaps in the curl of the maple. Take a look at the price asked. Take a look at the endorsement hoopala and the effort that Gibson put into this issuance of 30 instruments with Bill's annoited sucessor's signiture on them......and you wonder why some of us just shake our heads in amazement.

I don't think a Brentrup, a Kimble, Dudenbostel, Gilchrist, Wiens, Monteleone, Keminster (sp?), etc would ever consider putting a piece of wood like that in their creations. Details, details details......the devil is in them and the true act of caring and craftsmanship is in them. Pride in product is everything.

"Now breathe Gary......the rant is over"

[Chris Biorkman]

Oh boy.

[Docmarc]

...don't buy it...

[sgarrity]

I don't see anything wrong with the wood. It looks pretty Loar-ish to me. I've played two of these and they were both spectacular instruments. And I'm certainly not on the Gibson bandwagon. But I like these.....

[Ken Olmstead]

Gonna be a little warm around here me thinks! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mr. Loar]

Question & Answer Answered On

Q: Hi, i'm watching your gibson guitar auction at ebay, and i interested to buy it from you, but i have several questions first of all,please let me know your EMAIL ADDRESS SO I CAN CONTACT YOU DIRECTLY! questions about the gibson guitar: 1. How is the condition? Mint/new/like new?? 2. Is there any disfunction or damage on it? 3. Is it working good? 4. How much is your reserve price for it? how about if I BUY IT for US $21,500 ( my offering price for your buy it now price ) please email me your answer to scuderiatto@gmail.com so i can reply you faster, because it's connecting to my cell phone. Jun-03-08

A: First of all, this is a mandolin instead of a guitar. Secondly, I don't ship to Indonesia (sorry). Lastly, I don't give out my email to just anyone, especially when there is only one positive feedback response (for a $1.00 crab cookbook purchase). I am encouraging Ebay to check up on the validity of this inquiry.



http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

I honestly don't know how they ever let this one out of the shop http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

The offensive Skaggs model http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Tom C]

Blame the tree.

[MikeEdgerton]

I should have added this. If anyone wants to know who bought that first mandolin I posted in a barbershop PM me and I'll be more than happy to tell you who it was.

[woodwizard]

Yeah Mike that one with that guy holding it is a terrible looking one isn't it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[TomTyrrell]

You just can't trust those trees.

[Chris Biorkman]

Doesnt look too bad to me. Lots of Loars have backs that aren't super figured.

[F5GRun]

Im gonna have to agree with biorkman. Ive seen and played many gibson and for the most part they are nicely figured but not CRAZY figured. If I was spending that for a mando I would want a awesomely figured back and sides and neck(im a sucker for figured maple...what can I say?) But I think the RS-DMM is not so much about the figure of the wood...more about tone and vibe. Im also pretty sure that the folks at Gibson had every intent for this thing to have great figure, but during the build sometimes you have to sacrifice it for tone. Im sure its a hoss.

[Gutbucket]

That mando really sucks! #Better give it to me so I can dispose of it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[earthsave]

I dont know beans about wood, but do no like the look of that back on the DMM...

The other'n however, dont know how Bill lived with it.

[woodwizard]

Bill always played w/the pretty side up I guess

[tree]

Wonder how it sounds and plays? #

I think I have at least a rough idea, and the appearance of that back wouldn't be a dealbreaker if I were in the market for Skaggs DMM.

[JEStanek]

Woodwizard, Pretty side?

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73987_pre_vandalism.jpg

Oh Brother. Don't like it, don't buy it. I wonder if your impression would change if you could play it?

Jamie

Jamie

[F5GRun]

Looking at the photo a little more, is the heel kinda crooked?? or is that just the camera angle. (not referring to the center line)

[Brad Weiss]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[sgarrity]

They are made that way

[Albert Whiting]

Why would one make it crooked?

[Bernie Daniel]

I would agree that the DMM in question is not the most beautiful book match I have ever seen. #

But the decision to use this carved piece would certainly be made very early in the building process so it seems little would stop the luthier(s)at Gibson from selecting another carved back or another billet of maple? #

So I assume they went with it because of its tonal qualities not its appearence? #I would fully support such a decision as the mandolin is a musical insturment first and foremost.

[f5loar]

It's 96 degrees and cimbing here so I'm off to a 65 degree swimming pool to cool off. No way to cool this debate off.
Need a town hall meeting to settle it. But in fairness to the many Loars out there some are book matched and some are not. Some have flames like this one others like Monroe's. Depends on cut angle and tree used. But if this one went through what most DMMs go through it's probably a nice sounding/picking mandolin in the F5 quality Gibson is known for. To me what is bad is the finish shading. Not very Loar like there. Maybe a darker stain on this one would have covered up the not so cool curl/flame in the back. If this were a horseshoes game it would count as being close enough. Will it sell for this price? Probably not as you would find a better looking one out there for same price. The number of mandolin pickers able to buy a DMM are getting fewer each day as the gallon of gas goes up. Even those with enough cash funds for such a purchase will not give up during an unsettled economy with an uncertain future.

[Spruce]

"im a sucker for figured maple...what can I say?"

IMHO, psycadelic figure in new work is highly overrated....

It ain't all that hard to find, and the best set of wood is a 50.00 deal...

I mean, look at the Loars, which is what this mandolin is trying to emulate...
There are a lot of original instruments out there with understated figuring, and Monroe's is indeed a good example...

If I saw a new DMM with understated figuring (and I don't think the mando in question is all that bad), it would suggest that the makers knew
exactly what they were copying, and would applaud them for it....

And while they're at it, why not miss-match the tops and start using some spruce with crooked grain (look at Monroe's right above the tailpiece in the above pic) to really nail the vibe of the originals....?

That type of wood selection in new work just oozes confidence, IMHO.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[F5GRun]

Spruce, I totally agree. Its not just in tonewood I dig flame in, and it certainly would not be a deal breaker on a great sounding instrument, but figured wood in general just gets to me. I work at a Pharma Compnay in Pa. and we have a building that is floor to ceiling(all 40 feet high) veneered in figured maple, quite a sight to see, it makes me drool. For the record I did not want to make it sound like the figure of the wood is directly linked to tonal qualities of the instrument or quality of construction.

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

I didn't know that figured wood helped the tone #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

At least fewer people are jumping in with less to say (if that makes sense).

[woodwizard]

JEStanek: Woodwizard, Pretty side?
..............
ha ha ha I knew I would get some one http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[allenhopkins]

You no like, you no buy. Somebody buy it, pretty sure.

I find a less-than-spectacular figure in a mandolin back less problematical than a $50K "Super Earl' banjo (as in this thread) (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=54287) but I haven't the cash nor the inclination to fish in these waters anyway.

However, I remain highly critical of Strad-O-Lin for the funny-shaped "f" holes they used. And that painted-on binding -- what's with that?

[TomTyrrell]

My wife loves beautifully figured wood. She has asked me many times why they waste that beautiful wood by putting it on the back of the mandolin where nobody can see it. She does have a point, when you are playing nobody can see the back, when it is in the case nobody can see the back, even hanging on the wall in the store you can't see the back.

[Stephen Perry]

Seeing is believing, but a photograph isn't seeing.

You're looking at a picture. The whole mandolin image of the back shows a bit of flame in that area. Flip the mandolin upside down and photograph it, the flame will look different. Can't entirely tell about flame via images. Nature of figure in wood. Different light, different angles, different look.

[buddyellis]

Was gonna say the same thing steve. Could be a trick of the camera. Hard to photo flame.

[Ted Eschliman]

My wife loves beautifully figured wood.
D'oh, I need new bifocals. Tom, I misread that and thought you were talking about "perfectly figured wives."

Mine may not be, but I sure love her a bunch just the same!

[jbrwky]

Slab cut, not quarter sawn. Sounds good. NBD.

[JEStanek]

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Ricky-Skaggs-Mandolin-Distressed-Master-Model-F5_W0QQitemZ280232528686QQihZ018QQcat

egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's the auction.</a>

Ted, Mrs. Mandohack must not read the Café much or you'll have more to worry about than twisters!

If you want to complain about wood figure what about the coveted A2Z (http://www.vintagemandolin.com/23gibsona2z_74756_11971.html) like this one (NFI). Much desired tone, less extravagant figure. I bet this one will sell to someone.

Jamie

[Greg H.]

Well, I guess by the standards here no one would want to own this lousy Givens (http://gregboyd.com/instrument_detail.html?instrument_key=174&instrument_image_key=2229#big_pic)

[Spruce]

Yeah, Bob's mandolins are pretty well-known for their plain-jane wood...

I alway loved that about his work.....

[Gary Hedrick]

Givens mandolins are fine.....they aren't $22k and being made by the "flagship" company of mandolin making. Some of you guys are missing my point. The wood is available....the $'s to get really good wood is a fraction of the total cost. Why would you put out something that is less than great? Give the customer his full value....sound, looks, playability AND the Gibson mystic.
The January 12th '23 that I had the honor of playing for 21 years didn't have fantastic wood but there wasn't a ton of really good luthiers competing with Gibson in 1923....they were the show then in mandolins....the cutting edge etc.

I see all this chaff being thrown up in this thread to excuse Gibson from being the better company that a Charlie Derrington was trying to work to....Danny Roberts....Dave Harvey....I think they all want better but when I see this I just don't understand.....these 30 instruments are the pinacle of Gibson mandolin making.....so why not give it 110%

As for me (as much as I have been a Gibson person my 57 years) I'll take a Halsey....a Kimble....a Wiens.....I could own 2 of them for the price of one of those and have a perfect mandolin in tone, playablity and looks....

[man dough nollij]

I'd love to hear from the big G on this one. They obviously have access to spectacular wood, and chose not to use it on this one. I have a $500 Eastman that has substantially nicer flame on it. I'm guessing that it was completely intentional-- to make it look more like a vintage instrument, which didn't all have the "psychedelic", perfectly book-matched flame. It is supposed to be "distressed", so a certain funky quality to the wood might have been intended. If I had that kind of money to spend on an instrument, that wouldn't be the one, but that doesn't mean that the choice of woods was sinister, incompetent, or cheap.

[Gary Hedrick]

Oh and the two Dudes.....2 Nuggets.....2 Monteleones and one Lewis that I owned all had better wood than this Skaggs does....

and they all sounded great in their own way.....

and the Kimble I own today is better also and YES sound is number 1 and playability is number 2 and looks is number three.......I am a player not an art collector...

[MikeEdgerton]

If you want nice flame then have at it but don't think that nice flame was on every Loar or that the flame will make it sound better. That's the point. You see Gibson as having failed in this build. Let me put it this way, they sold it once with this wood on the back, it will sell again. If you want flame then go buy flame. I personally dislike two-toned automobiles but that doesn't mean a two-toned Rolls is a mistake and a bad car. C'mon. Take a long look at the back of Monroe's mandolin. Not too much flame. Now look at the front. It's a disaster. It ain't about the looks.

[Chris Biorkman]

Mike, if looks aren't everything then I'm screwed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gary Hedrick]

Bill Loar's sound had a heck of a lot more to do with Bill's playing than the Loar............The strings were really high.....the strings were old and mismatched etc..... Bill's Loar has nothing to do with this thread in my mind....He could take strings stretched across a gourd and get sound out of it just like Grisman can ala' Tone Poems.....

I'm getting my point across.....make the best....be the best...strive for perfection in making it if you can.....and they can do it...I've seen a number of really well done Master Models etc from Gibson.....

and yes it looks like Mr Bretrup didn't flame the dickens out of that one...that's his choice.....

They are making a $20k plus mandolin.....it should be the best that they can make in all aspects....

[MikeEdgerton]

And again. You are looking for flame, go where you can get it. That doesn't diminish the value of this instrument, it simply means it doesn't meet your expectations. Bill's wouldn't have either. Heck, half the Loars wouldn't have. This isn't a bad instrument, it just doesn't look like you'd like it to look. In your mind the best has perfectly matched flame. Obviously Loar wasn't as interested in that and the mandolins he signed appear to be the gold standard.

[Joel Spaulding]

Don't buy it. I only echo what has been said before. You can always call Gibson and ask for an instrument with what you perceive as a more attractive back piece.
As my avatar displays, I am a lover of "psychadelic" quilt/flame. While I LOVE the way my mando sounds and looks, I suspect Geoff from iii Mandolin could have acheived an equally appealing sound with a less "attractive" piece of wood.

This really shouldn't be an issue. Simple enough to say "I don't like it." Or even better - just don't buy it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ken Olmstead]

and yes it looks like Mr Bretrup didn't flame the dickens out of that one...that's his choice.....
Isn't also Gibsons choice? It is my choice to spend my money that way. I see what your saying, for me personally, a mandolin that I spent that much money on would have to have a lot of eyeball. But loads of people don't like that look. In fact they pay extra to have it "distressed" because they don't want a mandolin that looks like it was dipped in nail polish. I get your point but it is one of personal preference.

[Scott Tichenor]

Sorry, but I'm finding nothing of value in this discussion other than furthering a few disgruntled attitudes. It's personal and insulting towards the builder which is totally uncalled for.