"f" versus "a" models?

[techfiddle]

Dear list:

I'm starting a music program in the Fall, and I'm going to be studying mandolin, among other things. I'm a violin/viola/fiddle player and was going to buy this case, along with a mando -- which is the Bobelock double violin/mandolin case:

http://beststudentviolins.com/cases.html#doublevlman

But the case apparently only fits with an "F" model mandolin. Now I'm dealer with SAGA and I sell mandolins occasionally, but really don't know anything about them.

I was going to buy a mandolin and then have it adjusted here locally, which of course is recommended. (I'm sure no one can blame me for taking advantage of my wholesale prices). But the mandolins I've always looked at are the "A" models -- they just look more like mandolins to me.

I'm sure I'll learn a great deal more next year when I start the program at school but in the meantime, what's the difference between the "A" and "F" models (aside from the way they look)? I have both now, here:

http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins

Thanks in advance,
See you in the South Plains!
Connie

[Andrew DeMarco]

This question comes up a lot here. What's the difference between A and F?

Many people would simply answer "The fancy strap hanger..."

[TomTyrrell]

Staying totally within the parameters of the OP here.

All of the A style mandolins on your web page with a neck/body joint at the 15th fret will fit in a standard F5 case. IOW, they will fit in the Bobelock double violin/mandolin case you show on your web site.

If you want a few days' reading just search the site. Lots of discussions about As vs Fs.

[JEStanek]

If the neck lengths are the same (the A and F shown join the body at the 15th fret) the differences between the two are the body points and scroll. I hope the attached helps you see that the A will fit in the Fs shaped case.

Jamie

[techfiddle]

Is the shape of the back an issue? Even if the face (top) of the instruments are identical.

[TomTyrrell]

Is the shape of the back an issue? #Even if the face (top) of the instruments are identical.
No. The Kentucky A models are all arched back (not bowl back) mandolins.

[sunburst]

If the neck lengths are the same (the A and F shown join the body at the 15th fret) the differences between the two are the body points and scroll...
...and at least $1000 (usually, for similar quality).

[TomTyrrell]

What does price have to do with whether a mandolin will fit in a case or not?

In this instance the price of the mandolin doesn't matter that much since the "buyer" is a dealer and the choices are very limited.

[JEStanek]

I think John was stating the only very noticeable difference between and A and an F of similar quality is $1000 (or in this case about $300). Connie did want to know if there were differences other than looks. If the necks are both longer (15 frets to body) and the tonal differences will be negligible. So in this case the only real difference is cost. Either will fit in the double case.

Jamie

[techfiddle]

I did do a search on here and didn't see any headers which indicated that the discussion was specifically about the differences between the "A" and "F" models. But I do want to know what the differences are, if any, and not just cosmetically.

My guess is that, in terms of the back shape, the string set-up, and the pedagogy of learning the instrument, they are the same. Just the "F" models look superficially more like a guitar and are, in general, more expensive??

But then of course, why is the "F" model more expensive, if it is, and also, if there's no difference in sound, as a rule? And no particular model used for some particular type of music?

If the differences are only cosmetic -- aside from the probability that the more expensive the instrument is, the better the sound may be (?) -- and then, too, if they all fit in the double case, then never mind.

Seems like there's really no big, huge difference, then?

[sunburst]

What does price have to do with whether a mandolin will fit in a case or not?
First, as Jamie said, either will fit the case, second, you can replace the case for much less than the $1000-or-more price difference between a quality A and a quality F mandolin.

Connie, F style mandolins are more expensive than comparable quality A style mandolins because of the huge amount of extra labor involved in carving, binding, sanding, finishing etc. the points and particularly the scroll. The extra labor doesn't stop there, however, because the presence of the scroll complicates the neck set, the fret work, and other tasks involved in the construction of a mandolin.
There may be a trend toward higher quality in F mandolins, but, not in the lower price ranges. In fact, there is often a decline in overall quality of Fs because of the extra labor needed and the skill level of those in the factories making the low price instruments.

A style carved mandolins behave physically essentially the same as F style mandolins, and they sound essentially the same (assuming similar construction, sound holes, and such).

[man dough nollij]

But then of course, why is the "F" model more expensive, if it is, and also, if there's no difference in sound, as a rule? #And no particular model used for some particular type of music? #
Just a noob here, but I think I have a handle on this. Bluegrass is a very tradition-oriented genre, and the F style is associated with bluegrass. There's no reason you can't play bluegrass with an A style, it's just not as "mainstream". Plus, folks just get "scroll envy".

As to the cost, there is a ton of work that goes into making that scroll. If you peruse the Builders forum, you can see pictures of F styles under construction-- there is an incredible about of carving, trimming, sanding, etc involved in the scroll area, and the binding is extremely time consuming. You just delete all that detail and work completely, and you've got an A style, hence much cheaper.

[Jeff Hildreth]

The famed Gilchrist told that his A models and F models sound the same.. he further said there is no reason to buy and F based on tone and playability

When I asked why he built only F's now

Quick reply I can make more money

I have owned one F ... I much prefer A

[JeffD]

As to the cost, there is a ton of work that goes into making that scroll. If you peruse the Builders forum, you can see pictures of F styles under construction-- there is an incredible about of carving, trimming, sanding, etc involved in the scroll area, and the binding is extremely time consuming. You just delete all that detail and work completely, and you've got an A style, hence much cheaper.
While you are correct, I think you have the cart before the horse.

There is a lot of #extra work that goes into an F style. It is justified because the market allows one to sell an equivalent F style for a higher price.

The higher price is because they are more popular than A style mandolins, more folks just want 'em. This is most especially true in bluegrass.

There is no accoustic reason for desiring an F. But that scroll is SO DARN COOL, that folks are just willing to pay more to have one.

I of course am immune to scroll envy... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

NOT!

All my desires will be satisfied when I get a vintage Gibson F4.

[JEStanek]

Connie, If you look at some higher end F style mandolins you'll see how much more carving goes into the scroll (especially the volute or ridge). Also, having so many more curves on the body and the headstock makes binding (the stuff on the outer edge of the instrument usually white or black and white) takes a lot more time.

If you were, for example to choose an A or an F built by, John Hamlett (for example), if the woods used were the same, and he graduated the plates similarly, you would have very close to identical sounding instruments, only the one with the scrolly and pointy bits would cost you more. IMO, either instrument from John would be desirable.

There certainly is plenty of debate on the subtle nuances of differences in sound between and F and an A due to the slightly larger airchamber (part of the body scroll is hollow) and effects of headstock mass etc. But given the variation of instruments between builds I can't recall anyone proving there are general significant differences in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder.

Wait till you start asking about different finishes, cast vs stamped tailpieces, 1, 2, or 2+ piece backs, oval vs f soundholes and flatwound vs phosphor bronze or monel strings. It's more like a 55 gallon barrel of worms (and when we start speculating - it's almost like a barrel of monkeys!). Welcome to the wonderful (obsessive compulsive ) world of mandolins.

Jamie

[TomTyrrell]

But given the variation of instruments between builds I can't recall anyone proving there are general significant differences in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder.
Nobody has ever proven sameness in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder either.

Anecdotal evidence is all we ever get. That and nonsensical discussions of air chamber volume.

[techfiddle]

Wait till you start asking about different finishes, cast vs stamped tailpieces, 1, 2, or 2+ piece backs, oval vs f soundholes and flatwound vs phosphor bronze or monel strings. It's more like a 55 gallon barrel of worms (and when we start speculating - it's almost like a barrel of monkeys!). Welcome to the wonderful (obsessive compulsive ) world of mandolins.
I'll try to restrain myself. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif However, I do wonder, if I get one of those cheapies from SAGA, to start, would it be smart to (1) have it professionally adjusted; and (2) have a better set of strings put on it?

This is the process with the violins I (used to) get from them, though I learned better and started using Howard Core as my distributor, and all their violins are set up in their shop.

Oh: is there a distributor (wholesaler) who makes (and sets up better) better mandolins? That would be good to know. I've sold _one_ (1) of the SAGA's in a year and a half I've had this version of my business online, and that only because I had it priced down wrong and the lady was so sweet, and it was for her daughter, I gave it to her anyway, and made, like, $4.00 Which was fine.

But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. The page gets tons of hits.


Thanks,
Connie

[sunburst]

A good set up is important for playability, especially for students, and few mandolins arrive from factories with anything like a good set up.

I think you'll find that the variability in mandolin strings is nothing like in violin strings. The differences are mostly confined to gauge and the material of the windings of the wound strings. There are also coated strings and some flat wound strings, but all unwound mandolin strings and the cores of all wound mandolins strings are steel (with exceptions for specialty situations and perhaps come classical situations).

[JeffD]

But given the variation of instruments between builds I can't recall anyone proving there are general significant differences in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder.
Nobody has ever proven sameness in tone/sound quality between As and Fs of similar quality by the same builder either.

Anecdotal evidence is all we ever get. That and nonsensical discussions of air chamber volume.
Agreed. Sameness doesn't have to be proven. All that needs to be proven is that just about everything else has a bigger effect - or another way to say it, any differences in tone between an A and an "equivalent" F are likely to be attributable to other much more significant effects, type of wood, type of strings, type of playing, age of instrument, dryness of insrument, age of strings, and a whole host of other things.


And, if I am not mistaken, the issue with the air chamber volume is that if the only difference is the scroll, the air chamber volume is the same. No?

[JEStanek]

Connie,
I feel with imported instruments (probably with darn near any stringed instrument) local shop set-up is key to my purchase. If I were to buy a Kentucky (or Morgan Monroe, Or Michael Kelley) on e-bay from a shop I had not heard of or that drop shipped I would expect to need to spend another $40-70 on a good set up and fresh strings.

Buying from established dealers or dealers that have detailed what their set-up procedure before shipping is preferred. Ideally, the person in the shop should know about mandolins or at the very least be a good guitar tech and understand about floating bridges.

On mandos, especially less expensive ones for beginners, a good playing, properly set up instrument is your key to repeat customers. If a person spends $200-400 on a beginner instrument that hurts when they play it, or won't tune because of bridge or nut issues they won't come back to buy a more expensive instrument from you later.

A well set up $200 mandolin will sound and play better than a $2000 with a poor set up, IMO. Especially, to ears new to the instrument.

Jamie

[MandoBen]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. #The page gets tons of hits...
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.

[gregjones]

Wait till you start asking about different finishes, cast vs stamped tailpieces, 1, 2, or 2+ piece backs, oval vs f soundholes and flatwound vs phosphor bronze or monel strings. #It's more like a 55 gallon barrel of worms (and when we start speculating - it's almost like a barrel of monkeys!). #Welcome to the wonderful (obsessive compulsive ) world of mandolins.
And..........then you have to get a pick!!!!!

Thick, thin, rounded or pointed made of this or that.

Get one mando with six different picks and you have half a dozen different instruments---all in one case. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[grassrootphilosopher]

Connie,
if you would want a student grade mandolin - and beyond - for a fair price, get a well worn Strad-O-Lin from the 30ies. They fetch as much as 500,- USD but they sound like the vintage mandolin that they are and way better than modern student grade mandolins, and sometimes better than higher quality custom made instruments.

They are f-holed A-style mandolins. The bowels of the instrument apparently make up the beast. Since the 20ies when Lloyd Loar had his tenure with the Gibson firm mandolins with f-holes are made with so called tone bars, which are parallel braces that are responsible for the sound quality. Modern makers also build with an x-bracing pattern, like steel string guitar makers do. X-braces are also responsible for the sound character of the instrument. Oval hole instruments were generally made with a traverse brace to give a certain sound quality. This is what the Stad-O-Lin has though it has F-holes. The different bracing patterns and the question of f-hole vs. oval hole makes up the sound difference in the instrument.

As you see, it is more what´s in the instrument than the appearance that makes up the sound. Mandolins also differ in size, the Strad-O-Lin is smaller than its Gibson brothers and sisters. Among them the size differs too as far as I am informed, depending wether the instrument is an oval- or f-hole instrument.

The most reasonable advice that I have read on this thread is, go out and try any mando if possible back to back with others and determine the sound that you like as well as the appearance before you decide on any instrument.

[techfiddle]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. The page gets tons of hits...
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.
It's TOTALLY linked to my homepage. Scroll to the top; there are links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.

[Bill Snyder]

Connie,
Kentucky brand mandolins get good reviews by several of the posters on the Mandolin Cafe as student and perhaps intermediate instruments. If you can get them at wholesale then it makes sense to me for you to get one.

To answer your question as to why you don't sell any mandolins it is your prices. They are higher than what other online suppliers are selling theirs for.

[techfiddle]

Connie,
Kentucky brand mandolins get good reviews by several of the posters on the Mandolin Cafe as student and perhaps intermediate instruments. If you can get them at wholesale then it makes sense to me for you to get one.

To answer your question as to why you don't sell any mandolins it is your prices. They are higher than what other online suppliers are selling theirs for.
Even with the free shipping?

[TomTyrrell]

Even with the free shipping?
Yup, the biggest on-line store sells the 340S for $279.99 and the 380S for $349.99 - both with free shipping.

It is really hard to compete on price with those guys.

[TomTyrrell]

Agreed. Sameness doesn't have to be proven. All that needs to be proven is that just about everything else has a bigger effect - or another way to say it, any differences in tone between an A and an "equivalent" F are likely to be attributable to other much more significant effects, type of wood, type of strings, type of playing, age of instrument, dryness of insrument, age of strings, and a whole host of other things.


And, if I am not mistaken, the issue with the air chamber volume is that if the only difference is the scroll, the air chamber volume is the same. No?
All those factors you listed fall outside the realm of "equivalent." Those who want to justify their preference for the A models will either cite all those factors or just say they like the A models better. If the As and Fs sound the same it isn't logical to have a preference based on sound. Same is same.

The resonating surface A top (and back) is symmetrical. The resonating surface of the Fs is not symmetrical. The scroll itself is decorative, no effect on sound, but that little extra bit of free top carved to a different profile makes the difference.

I'm not sure whose thesaurus says "different" and "better" are synonyms but I assure you they are not. Many people prefer the more balanced tone of an A model, especially if they don't spend all their time chopping.

You are correct. This is not an air chamber thing.

[MandoBen]

... links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.
The scroll down menu 'Store' just reloads the homepage, the only links across the top are: Sheetmusic | Advanced Literature | Scores, no mention of guitars or mandolins, although I see that these links actually go to pages with guitar/mandolin links.
I am using a Mac w/Safari and/or Firefox with Earthlink DSL, and that is how it appears to me.

[cooper4205]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. #The page gets tons of hits...
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.
It's TOTALLY linked to my homepage. #Scroll to the top; #there are links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.
Are you sure it is? I didn't see a link on the top that said Store, and when I went to the drop down box and clicked on Store, I couldn't find anything mandolin related, except some cases (plus the only way I knew that was there was by reading your post). You might want to make it a little easier to navigate.

[TomTyrrell]

Did you go all the way to the top of the page? The link puts you a bit lower than half-way down the page.

[techfiddle]

... links across the top (click on the "Store" icon), or use the pull down menu on the top left.
The scroll down menu 'Store' just reloads the homepage, the only links across the top are: Sheetmusic | Advanced Literature | Scores, no mention of guitars or mandolins, although I see that these links actually go to pages with guitar/mandolin links.
I am using a Mac w/Safari and/or Firefox with Earthlink DSL, and that is how it appears to me.
Hmm..not sure where you're trying to go. There's a pull down menu in the upper left corner, and then also, under the Google ad, there's this line:

Violins | Violas | Cellos | Basses | Bows | Cases | Guitars

[techfiddle]

...But I have to wonder why I haven't sold any. The page gets tons of hits...
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this page, http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins does not appear to be linked to your homepage? I had to do a google search of "best student violins mandolins" to find it.
Oh, I know what you're saying now. (sorry) There's no link to the guitar page on my store. I'll fix that. I did notice it yesterday and haven't gotten around to it.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention..

[mandroid]

Just bear in mind, being made of wood there is a natural variation.
and mass produced instruments will look the same as they are 'painted' all at the same time but the little things that a hand builder can alter to take advantage or accommodate the differences in the wood pieces individually cannot be done in masses.

but if the dealer you buy from sets up the instrument before putting it on the display peg, or returns to the case then sends it on to you
will be ready to play , whereas the warehouse shippers never open the box itself, you are the first one to see it after the factory put it in the box in what ever country it came from.

be prepared to return the Klinkers, as you are the first in-country
Quality Control Inspector.

[techfiddle]

Are you sure it is? I didn't see a link on the top that said Store, and when I went to the drop down box and clicked on Store, I couldn't find anything mandolin related, except some cases (plus the only way I knew that was there was by reading your post). You might want to make it a little easier to navigate.
No, you guys were right. I didn't know what you meant at first. But I fixed it; I added the links. I guess they got taken off because I just gave up. But I'll go in there Tuesday and pare all the prices down to the bare minimum, so I make like $10 on each one. That should help, also.

Thank you for your help~

[CES]

The price issue is, I'm sure, frustrating for you. BUT, when most people are looking to "get into the mandolin," they don't typically think about throwing a lot of money out there until they're sure their interest will last (unless they've played other quality instruments for a long time and understand that a handmade instrument is typically just better than the 200 buck laminate whatever on the walls of most stores). Also, it took some education for me to realize that you can get a pretty darn nice guitar off the rack for 500-1200 dollars (less if you go electric), while comparable quality in the carved top mandolin world costs more. As you stated earlier, price is definitely a consideration even for yourself!

Now for the only useful thing I can tell you...regardless of which one you choose, set-up is key. Definitely get it professionally adjusted locally. No matter how nice or expensive, if you can't play it relatively comfortably your frustration level will be ridiculous!

[JeffD]

I'm not sure whose thesaurus says "different" and "better" are synonyms but I assure you they are not.
Well I didn't want to shave the ice that thin. By absolute standards no two instruments are ever the same.

The accurate way to say what I was getting at: The difference between an A mandolin and an F mandolin are going to be the same or smaller than the difference between any two A mandolins. There is not a way to attribute a difference to the existance of a scroll and points.

Also, to the extent that any mandolin can be made to sound like another, (which is arguable anyway) an A style can be built to sound like any given F, and an F can be built to sound like any given A, in other words the luthier can create the required sound with or without a scroll. This is not true, for example, with the difference between F holes and round holes, which have a comparitively huge effect on the sound.

That is at least what I have always understood. If there is a sound difference accurately attributed to the existance of a scroll and points it is news to me.



http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[JeffD]

The scroll itself is decorative, no effect on sound, but that little extra bit of free top carved to a different profile makes the difference.


Many people prefer the more balanced tone of an A model, especially if they don't spend all their time chopping.
I know what you are saying, but it surprises me.

[fatt-dad]

I'd just like to add, if you are buying a SAGA mandolin, there is a likelihood that their best sounding mandolin will be one of their f-models. Not to take anything away from their A's, but they run their f's into the higher range and some of them sound just great! If I was getting a company discount, I'd likely go for the top of the line f-model. I'm sure if you have a trained ear in the violin you will hear the difference. You will always have resale in your favor also.

I love the a-model mandolin, but the best mandolins by SAGA that I've played have always been their F's.

Just another perspective.

f-d

[TomTyrrell]

Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=54049;st=25) They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-7-48851-GibLLF5.001.tif.jpg

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-7-49460-GibLLF5.007.tif.jpg

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-7-51951-GibA320.005.tif.jpg

[cooper4205]

I thought he was comparing oval-holes and f-holes, not A-styles and F-styles? wouldn't an A-style with f-holes and and F-style with f-holes (and the same bracing) be a better comparison?.


The main difference between oval hole mandolins and f-hole mandolins is that they radiate sound differently. F'rinstance, the second or "longitudinal sloshing" air mode does not radiate at all in f-hole mandolins, but produces monopole radiation (a spherical spatial pattern) in oval hole mandolins.

[mando andy]

About the link on your website---it might be helpful to have a very evident link to "home" or something very obvious to explain the basics and overview about your business. That might help.

Andy

[earthsave]

Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=54049;st=25) They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-7-48851-GibLLF5.001.tif.jpg

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-7-49460-GibLLF5.007.tif.jpg

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-7-51951-GibA320.005.tif.jpg
You got videos of those with a cool psychedelic color scheme?

BTW, Nice pics that illustrate the difference in vibration.

[techfiddle]

About the link on your website---it might be helpful to have a very evident link to "home" or something very obvious to explain the basics and overview about your business. That might help.

Andy
Thank you to all of you for your input and responses; I appreciate it so much! I changed all the prices on the page this morning.

There is a "Contact" link at both the top and the bottom of the pages; this has the information about the business and how to contact me.

I was astonished to find, late last night, that the block of links I put on my "Store" page did not work! So I changed those, too.

[JeffD]

Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=54049;st=25) They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.
Thats F holes compared to oval holes. The sound hole makes a huge difference.

I would be interested in seeing an oval hole F style compared to an oval hole A, or an F hole F style compared to an F hole A style.

[TomTyrrell]

Jeff, did you even bother looking at the pictures? I'm not talking about the holes. Ignore the holes. Look at the PLATES. Look at the waveforms near the scroll compared to the opposite side of the top. That is the difference everyone refuses to accept.

[Rick Schmidlin]

Great thread and great diolog from all.I really enjoyed this mornings read with all the imput.

[JeffD]

Look at the PLATES. Look at the waveforms near the scroll compared to the opposite side of the top. That is the difference everyone refuses to accept.
I see that. But with so much else being different, I cannot be sure sure if:

1 - that is an anomoly that only happens with the interaction of the F hole and a scroll

2 - if it makes a significant hearable difference


Tom I am certainly not qualified to speak authoritatively about this. Luthiers, accoustic engineers, and you who have done lots of back and forth comparisons feel free to jump in.

All I am saying is that until your postings, I never heard anyone claim a sound difference attributable to the scroll.

[Jkf_Alone]

tom you are forgetting that the tone bars in f style mandolins and in A style oval holes are completely different. on F styles they run beside the f holes and on oval holes (depending on type) there is one brace behind the bridge. those bars do transfer vibration.

Connie, speaking as a business person, there are a few problems with your site and your sales of mandolins.

- most sites offer a free basic setup ( if you dont, you are "setting yourself up" ) for headaches
- most of the better sites dont simply repeat the SAGA line (look at themandolinstore.com )
- if you cant make a profit on something that you are happy with WHY SELL IT? you should just specialize in what you know.

[Dave Cohen]

F-style mandolins do not in general have mode shapes substantially different than A-style mandolins with the same sound hole and bracing configuration. #The kind of asymmetry that Tom noticed in the '24 F5 is unremarkable. #Please note that there is a small amount of asymmetry seen in the sideways rocking motion of the 1920 A3 as well. #Individual mandolins will show some variations, but they all have all of the basic mode shapes. #More important are the differences in modal frequencies. #Those vary quite a bit; more so in mandolins than in guitars, f'rinstance. #I will have much more on that in my chapter in an upcoming book on the physics of stringed instruments being edited by Tom Rossing.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[Lee]

Dave, please keep us updated on the expected release date of your book. As a piano tuner especially interested in string physics (and historical temperaments), I'm sure it'll be a fascinating read.

[TomTyrrell]

I'm not forgetting anything but I'm not trying to write a book. Those photos show the F model plate resonating in a different manner on the scroll side as on the other side. The non-scroll side of the F model is more like an A. If we had an F hole A model the two side would be more symmetrical as with the oval.

Put away your blinders. Look at the pictures.

[techfiddle]

- most of the better sites dont simply repeat the SAGA line (look at themandolinstore.com )
I would love to feature mandos from other companies if I could find a distributor besides SAGA. Do you know of one? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[BiscoMando]

Dave Cohen posted these images on this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=54049;st=25) They show exactly what I'm talking about. A models are almost exactly symmetrical, F models aren't even close.
Okay, now we're just splitting hairs... the acoustic response from the F-model is pretty darn close to symmetrical, more-so than I thought it would be. The A model's response is definately not "exactly" symmetrical. look at the pictures again.

I'm not trying to start a A vs. F battle here, and I thank you for introducing perhaps the most scientific piece of evidence to be found in this thread. All I'm saying is that if you examine the pictures and look at scroll side vs points side, they're pretty close to symmetrical. just as close as the A-model you showed, anyway. these photos have made me realize that people will see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Just pick a style, play the darn thing and love it!

[MikeEdgerton]

Time for a break guys. Let's not let this get out of hand.

[Jason Holmes]

- most of the better sites dont simply repeat the SAGA line (look at themandolinstore.com )
I would love to feature mandos from other companies if I could find a distributor besides SAGA. Do you know of one? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I gathered that this meant to not just repeat the "line" from the Saga product literature, but to write something more telling about each given instrument, the same way you have with the violins etc. on your site. This one is truly a step up from this one because...that kind of thing.

[Dave Cohen]

Tom, it is one resonance. I've done hundreds of these images, maybe thousands by now. You can see differences like that in guitars with exactly the same body shape but slightly different bracing. For that mode, small differences in shape do not necessarily correspond readily to differences in modal frequencies. Note also that you are trying to compare three different modes in the three different images. The first image is of the "trampoline (0,0) mode at 278 and 345 Hz, the second is of the twisting (1,1) mode above 900 Hz, and the third is of the sideways rocking (1,0) mode around 500 Hz. Those are typical values for the frequencies of those respective modes in the types of mandolins shown. I have seen Fs with symmetric (0,0) modes, Fs with asymmetric (0,0) modes, As with symmetric (0,0) modes, and As with asymmetric (0,0) modes. It's just not a big deal. For a parallel example of this in a classical guitar, you might want to take a look at the following:

Richardson, B.E.; "Simple Models as a Basis for Guitar Design", CAS Journal, Vol 4, No. 5 (Series II), May, 2002, pp 30-36.

Consider also that if you were to make a very asymmetrically shaped mandolin (no scrolls or points, etc.) the mode shapes would still be global, i.e., they would all occupy the entire surfaces of the plates. So they would be very asymmetric. Consider also that each sample of wood is very inhomogeneous; I have even seen small differences like that in otherwise identically shaped mandolins.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[Jkf_Alone]

connie, I'm just saying that you should not make the mistake that so many people have before. sell what you know, then once your established in that, then slowly add other items to truely see what works and what doesnt. its product mix and product spin that will make people come back.

[BiscoMando]

Time for a break guys. Let's not let this get out of hand.
true enough mike.

I love mandolins, no matter what shape!

[JeffD]

Time for a break guys. Let's not let this get out of hand.
Exactly right -

[TomTyrrell]

OK, I guess if you will believe an A model can resonate in an area of its top that doesn't EXIST you will believe the A and F have identical sounds.

But why try to explain why they don't sound the same?

[techfiddle]

Well, I guess my decision -- since the difference in sound is not established, it seems -- is to get an A model, since I like the look more. And I want a black one with oval sound holes. The cheapest one SAGA has is the RM25S, which is $60. my price, but I don't want the cheapest one, I want the most expensive one they have, which in the black, A model with oval holes is their KM-171. My price on that is $200.

Their most expensive instrument in the A model has F shaped sound holes, their Vintage Amberburst KM505. It's $100 more, or $300 my price.

Had I better not get that one, despite my cosmetic inclination, because the sound will be that much better? Of course I'll take it and have it examined by a luthier as soon as I get it.

Hmm.. of course if i'm going to go in that direction (away from my impulses), their most expensive F model is their KM1000, which is 1K my price. That sound is going to be so much better, right??

I just don't want to make a stupid mistaken based on 0 knowledge, and get an instrument which I will end up giving away to another student at half what I paid for it, which is what I usually end up doing...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

You're experienced with musical instruments. You should know that there is a difference in what you get based on what you pay. There is a reason that some mandolins cost more than others and it's not all cosmetic. Take a fact finding trip to someplace where they have at least some higher end mandolins and get a bit more of a hands on education. The Saga instruments you are looking at are entry level instruments. From what I gather from a Google search of your name you're a very experienced violinist. I'm sure you wouldn't be satisifed with the entry level Saga violins. If you're buying to see if you want to learn to play that's one thing, if you're buying to have an instrument to take you into the next level of playing then you might consider going a little higher in the Saga line.

[Jason Holmes]

I think Mike makes a good point, being an experienced player of other (presumably high quality) instruments, you may well not be satisfied with an entry level mandolin. Though I normally lean toward an A style nowadays, in your case since you can get it at wholesale pricing, I'd lean toward that KM1000 as it's the best thing they're making.

[techfiddle]

I think Mike makes a good point, being an experienced player of other (presumably high quality) instruments, you may well not be satisfied with an entry level mandolin. Though I normally lean toward an A style nowadays, in your case since you can get it at wholesale pricing, I'd lean toward that KM1000 as it's the best thing they're making.
I think so, too.

This question probably belongs somewhere else, but when you pluck a string, does it result in a double sound? Or when you use the pick, do you pluck both strings, or one?

[earthsave]

I think Mike makes a good point, being an experienced player of other (presumably high quality) instruments, you may well not be satisfied with an entry level mandolin. #Though I normally lean toward an A style nowadays, in your case since you can get it at wholesale pricing, I'd lean toward that KM1000 as it's the best thing they're making.
I think so, too. #

This question probably belongs somewhere else, but when you pluck a string, does it result in a double sound? #Or when you #use the pick, do you pluck both strings, or one?
Generally, you strum both strings nearly simultaneously but I suppose you could just pick the one if you so desired.

Standard tuning is to tune the pairs of strings the same (E A D G) so they should sound like one string when strummed together.

[Greg H.]

Another advantage of going somewhere where you can try them out is to compare the F hole vs. oval hole sound. While we'll probably never agree on whether an F model and an A model are the same in sound, I think we can all easily agree on the difference between F hole and Oval hole. The F hole mandolin tends to have a sharper attack but much less sustain. It also projects the sound away (so what a listener hears 10' away is likely to be much louder than what the mandolinist hears). An oval hole, on the other hand tends to be warmer with much more sustain and more easily heard by the mandolinist. Re-reading this it sounds as though I favor oval holed mandolins, while in reality I prefer the tone from F holed mandolins. Both are good, but they are quite different.

There's far more that can be said on that comparison, but you'll understand it better by playing and listening than by reading our descriptions. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Regarding your question about the sound from the double strings, most of the time the mandolin is picked in a manner similar to a 12 string guitar so each pair of strings is picked as if one (though here the pairs of strings are all unison) That said, there are some occasions where the two strings are tuned differently and played either individually or as a double stop These are usually referred to as split strings or split string tuning.

[mcH]

Connie --
When I first got started on mandolin [having first played violin] -- my first impulse was to find a mandolin that I like the "looks of" and start shopping for one. I discovered that had I gone out and played a few of the instruments that I thought looked impressive, I would have not purchased any of them. Since my first purchase, I discovered that what really matters is the sound of the instrument.

Since you are a SAGA line dealer, I'd recommend you find another retailer who represents the line, and go play some of the instruments, (or take another mandolin player with you play them) to help make your choice. One good thing about this, if you do decide to opt for a less expensive model, when you finally decide what's really important about how the instrument plays, you won't have too much invested. (Unlike me who has 4-5 instruments collecting dust in the house, and one good one that gets played all the time].

At one point I was enamoured with an oval hole A and had it shipped. I quickly discovered that the sound wasn't anything that I expected, and money was spent shipping it back. It's really worth the time it takes to drive somewhere and play them first, even if it becomes a weekend adventure.

Good luck.

[allenhopkins]

If you are a Saga dealer, you probably can access Kentucky mandolins (a Saga brand). They have a much wider range of models, including some quite top-line instruments -- "A" and "F" shapes, round-hole and f-hole models.

Here's a link (http://www.sagamusic.com/catalog/products.asp?CategoryID=2&FamilyID=3&BrandID=20) to a product summary page.

[fatt-dad]

The 380S is likely a nice mandolin and it's one you carry at your on-line store. You would have first-hand knowledge of your product line! You would also never need to sell it for much of a loss if you buy it at your price either. Matter of fact, couldn't you easily return anything that you take in inventory and don't sell (i.e., to yourself)?

f-d

[techfiddle]

If you are a Saga dealer, you probably can access Kentucky mandolins (a Saga brand). They have a much wider range of models, including some quite top-line instruments -- "A" and "F" shapes, round-hole and f-hole models.

Here's a link (http://www.sagamusic.com/catalog/products.asp?CategoryID=2&FamilyID=3&BrandID=20) to a product summary page.
Correct; I have a few of these on my page at

http://beststudentviolins.com/guitars.html#mandolins

I have 380S mentioned by the poster, above, among others, AND a link to the SAGA page, as well. Check my page.