Vega cylinderback cittern on ebay

[man dough nollij]

Has anyone ever seen one of <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Vega-Cittern-Cylinder-Back-1918-1919-w-OHSC_W0QQitemZ190224300938QQihZ009QQcategoryZ11902 7
QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">these</a>? It looks very interesting, but I can't imagine how you could have five courses on a 13-7/8" scale... Two floppy C strings? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[trevor]

I had one with a 15" scale. Its still on my website on the ten string/cittern pages. The C worked fine. I think Dan B has owned one with the same scale. As you say 13 7/8" is short to get a good C.

[danb]

Yes, it worked but that low C was rubbery. I tried with a single string but never quite got it to feel fluid with anything melodic. The longer scale one I bought from Trevor worked much better.

I used the short scale one as a backing instrument on Torch & Fire, for strumming chords it worked pretty well

[Jim Garber]

I had one years ago... same problem esp with the C-string. I like one luthier's idea of using fan frets for a five course instrument.

I played a five course Monteleone mandolin years ago. It was one of his early ones prob from the early 1980s and it was not a successful instrument IMHO. Same problem.

[Paul Hostetter]

It's likely that it was never intended to be tuned CGDAE - most of the Vega 10-strings were bandurrias which were usually tuned in 4ths, not 5ths. A very intriguing instrument, but I agree there's not much hope of getting a C to speak at that length. ADGBE would work, as would straight fourths (like a Puerto Rican cuatro) ADGCF.

[allenhopkins]

OK, let me reveal my deep, deep ignorance (and not for the first time, either):

I have read several times that short-scale instruments in mandola tuning don't work well because the 4th course, tuned to C, is "floppy," "rubbery," doesn't project like the G, D & A courses. This opinion also applies to 5-course instruments, like this Vega, when tuned to cover the mandolin and mandola spectrum, CGDAE.

Why can't one just use a slightly heavier string, which would then have to be tuned to a higher tension to reach the pitch of C? Of course, one would have to take care not to put so much tension on the top and neck that damage resulted, but is there no gauge of string that can be tuned to C, not produce damage, and still project in balance with the G,D,A (and E) courses?

Or am I missing something obvious (always a possibility!)?

[mrmando]

With steel strings it might just be impossible. It may be that the core size makes more difference than the gauge. There's a custom string maker in England that claims to make heavy-gauge strings with larger cores than usual ... it might help.

If I got this I would try a single-course C with a gut-core string.

[Paul Hostetter]

Why can't one just use a slightly heavier string, which would then have to be tuned to a higher tension to reach the pitch of C? Of course, one would have to take care not to put so much tension on the top and neck that damage resulted, but is there no gauge of string that can be tuned to C, not produce damage, and still project in balance with the G,D,A (and E) courses?
Having tried every imaginable possibility, I think I know why it's not done. On a 15" scale an .056" tuned to C works, credibly but barely. The heavier you go, the more the tone changes, not to mention the higher the tension goes. Unfortunately these factors work against one another, it's not a simple mathematical tradeoff. On a mandolin scale, which you can check on any Gibson-type for yourself, you'd need to go to around a .074" or so to get that balance, then you'd have to learn to accept the sound and the feel. And you'd have to drill bigger holes in the tuning machine posts to even wind the strings on. Even with .056's, the tone is somewhat dark and dull, and the tension will overwhelm an eggshell like that Vega. The other possibility is to raise the action and keep a lighter string, but then you have major issues with compensation.

In short, there's no reason you can't try it (I sure have) but I wouldn't subject an old Vega cylinderback to the experiment. What you could do, to satisfy your own curiosity, is move the bottom three pairs of strings on a Gibson up one course, then try some heavier strings for a C course and see what happens. I can pretty much guarantee you won't find a good solution, but there's nothing stopping anyone from trying. Just do it on a sturdy instrument.

[allenhopkins]

Thanx to both for very helpful replies.

[BlueMountain]

Paul is right. I've tried it. It works better on a five string electric, but that short scale just seems to be not long enough for a good C string sound when fretting. It can be sort of nice when you are playing in C to use that low C as a drone, but it does sound better on a mandola, and it sounds better on a mandola with a 19 inch scale than a 16 inch scale.

[Bob DeVellis]

"New Model Vega Lute-Combination Mandola Mandolin

"These instruments have the body and length of scale of the Mandolin, consequently giving the Mandolin soprano tone quality; the five sets of strings give the full range of the Mandola and Mandolin."

"The Vega Combination Mandola-Mandolin has the full range of the mandolin and tenor mandola in one instrument. It has the five double strings E-A-D-G-C, the E-A-D-G- giving mandolin and the A-D-G-C, the mandola, consequently, there are two complete instruments in one -- the mandolin and the mandola, the four upper strings being the mandolin and the four lower strings the mandola. Having the body of a mandolin the soprano tone quality is obtained."


Above is quoted from "Vega Mandolins and Guitars," 1913 catalog of the Vega Company, 62 Sudbury Street, Boston

While I have no doubt that an instrument of this scale would have problems tuning the lowest strings to C, that tuning was clearly the intent of the manufacturer.

[danb]

Yes, bob is correct. I somewhere have or had the catalog with those images and descriptions in but it seems to have gone missing! The longer-necked ones worked better, but at the contrary detriment where up the neck the e strings sounded quite shrill.

They also made 10-string mandocellos.. which I've never seen except in photos

[mandroid]

I am guessing that I'm managing 13 7/8" scale C mostly because it's sound comes from the magnetic pickup
that its vibrating over, more than anything else,C floppyness on flat fretboard seems less of an issue than trying to keep it from falling,
or getting pushed, off the edge of the arched fingerboard.

15" 5 string trying to get the E to work without being so thin its magnetically invisible is a separate problem.

but i'm interrupting an acoustic topic , 'as you were , troops'