More on Playing and Singing

[Michael H Geimer]

I'm having a difficult time driving my group from behind the mandolin. It's easy when I'm playing guitar, but once I'm behind the mandolin it seems that the other players start to miss changes, lose the feel, change the tempo, etc ... basically because the guys have been following my guitar for years, and are not as familar with the sound and voicing of the mandolin.

It is also quite difficult to teach the guys a new song from behind the mandolin. I end up teching the song on guitar, and then switching over to mandolin later on ... but it's a lot like starting all over with the tune. I'd rather just teach the song from the mandolin, but I can't seem to commincate the Big Picture from behind such a little instrument.

The situation can get much worse when it comes time to pass around breaks. Without a vocal line to give structure, and without me driving from behind a boomy guitar, the changes often start happening early/late, or the song just plain changes into something totally different ... making it very hard to get back into the next verse. LOL!

Have any famous mandolin players ever successfully led a Bluegrass band? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Ok ok ... just kidding. I know how Big Mon got that job done ... he cracked a whip! But, if I started dictating the parts I think people ought to play, I'd just annoy the other guys ... probably not worth it. I want to lead by example, rather than tell people what to do.

I am interested in hearing any suggestions or anecdotes that pertain to this sort of situation. Am I not a strong enough mandolin player, or is this just a naturally difficult thing to accomplish? I really want to keep playing mandolin in this group in order to push myself further, but someone has to 'drive the bus' before we end up in a ditch!

- Benignus

[John Flynn]

It sounds to me like if there is any lack of skill in your situation it is not on your part, but on the part of the other band members. Someone has to provide rhythm to keep everyone else on track. No one should be depending on the singing or the mandolin to to that. Apparently without you playing guitar, no one else has a sense of rhythm or sees it as thier role. The mandolin is good at providing support to the rhythm, but IMHO, it is not good at being the main rhythm instrument. Also, a mandolin player restricted to playing only rhythm is likely a dissappointed mandolin player. Your group needs to understand that at any given point in time in a tune, someone has to be responsible for providing the rhythmic foundation. It can be the same person all the time, or it can switch off, but it has to be continuous. Generally it is going to be a guitar. If you are not going to play rhythm guitar then that void has to be filled.

[ira]

teach em the chord forms, so they can watch your hands to see the changes. i had my guitar playin partner teach me some basics and i have taught him as well. he knows what an a, g, c, and d look like which is a pretty good start.

[mandofiddle]

I don't know what your method is for teaching tunes to the group, but here is one very important thing we do that tends to work well. #

Bring in charts for the tune and/or write the chord structure up on a white board. #Next to the chart have the structure such as:

Intro on A part (mando)
Verse (A)
Chorus (B)
Guitar solo (A)
Mando solo (B)
Chorus (B)
Ending solo (A)

I usually bring in sheets with the chord chart, structure and lyrics all on one page. #One for each person so they can make necessary notes... #This way nobody is at a loss for where the changes are.

After we have the tune down pretty good by following the charts, we'll make a recording of it and pass it around to each person in the band so they can practice along with it at home. #Since we can only get together twice a week, this dramatically improves and speeds up the learning process.

[Michael H Geimer]

" Apparently without you playing guitar, no one else has a sense of rhythm or sees it as thier role. The mandolin is good at providing support to the rhythm, but IMHO, it is not good at being the main rhythm instrument. Also, a mandolin player restricted to playing only rhythm is likely a dissappointed mandolin player. "

Well ... it's not a technical issue. Everyone has great timing. But, it is clearly an issue of roles.

I either need to figure out an effective way to guide the group through my performance, or I need to find a way to #coax one or both of the other players to embrace the role of the Bus Driver.

I think a Big Board to use when learning the songs is a great idea. I've got the just the spot to hang up newsprint that I could turn into a visual chart ... but I think the guys would rebel at the idea of homework. One of the core issues is that I work on new songs constantly, while the others ... not so often. So, visual learning aids are good, but assignments, expectations of weekly progess, and homework would likely fail.

I'm nervous about all this as I just landed a regular coffee house gig, where I performed my gig last Sunday. I played solo - first time! - for a little over an hour. Then one of the guys came by to play 'color' for the rest of the afternoon.

Well, at Tuesday's practice I got grilled for not inviting everyone, and so now the whole gang is coming down this Sunday.

Now ... I know over twice as much material as the band knows. I can either play those songs on guitar, putting three guitars in the line up.

Or, I can ask people to sit out while I play solo, and look/act like an ego-head jerk ... IMO.

Or, I can play mandolin, and risk all the akwardness of singing lead atop a 'shaky foundation'.

Eeeck!

Thanks for the help! Any other thoughts?

[sunburst]

I am interested in hearing any suggestions or anecdotes that pertain to this sort of situation.
Well, here's an anecdote.
I used to be a drummer.(semi-pro) I was in controle. If the tempo was wrong, it was my fault...period. It was relatively easy to push or pull the band, pep things up, calm things down, whatever the situation called for.

Then I started playing b@^jo. Yeah, it's loud, but I quickly found out that that leadership role of the drummer does not reside in the banjo. I found that I have very little ability to influence the tempo or progress of a song or tune, other than the kick-off, which is often my responsibility.

Furthermore, I've found that the only instrument in the bluegrass band that gives me that "in charge" position in the bass. I need the beat, not the back beat to do that.
I'm not a strong guitar player so I can't really relate to that as a leadership role.

I wish more bass players understood their leadership role better. It's the heart of the bluegrass band.

[John Flynn]

One insight I got from the Jody Strecher workshop I participated in last weekend is to try putting a better sense of rhythm in the melody itself. It's like the difference between just "playing the violin" and "fiddling," only transported to the mandolin. One way you can more sensitive to it is to practice each tune a few times through with the left hand muting all the strings, just playing percussion with the pick on the muted strings. Really work at a getting some good rhythmic percussion going. Really get into it. Then, when you put the left hand into play and start making notes, keep the rhythmic, percussive feel. The tune may be unchanged, the notes may be exactly the same. But the feel will be very different. Just a thought. It really helped me.

[sunburst]

Mando Johnny,
That's just the sort of thing that makes the bass player's (or drummer's) job easier!
If the rhythm will sustain itself without the bass having to constantly keep everybody on track, he or she is free to add some finesse without cluttering the sound and add some interest to the total sound of the group.

[Rroyd]

Judging from your comments, you have two other members, both being guitar players. #Do either or both play breaks? # And if so, what does the other player do while one is taking a lead? # It sounds like their concept of being in a band needs some subtle reshaping, which you might accomplish in several different ways. #Suggest that each person bring in tunes for the group to do, with thoughts on arrangements. #That might be one way of helping to make them aware of their musical responsibilities. Their comments about the gig makes one wonder if they feel like they are being "left out" and this might be one way to help make them feel like it is their group, too.
You could also play recordings of songs to work up, and have everyone listen and discuss the arrangements, and decide what each person should be doing when. #You could record a few tunes you have worked up as a group, and then listen and have everyone evaluate what needs to be done to improve. # You could have the group practice with an electronic drummer, which would take off the pressure of trying to hold things together rhythmically, and make each person aware of any deficiencies they might have without having it pointed out to them. #(Trying to sing and play an offbeat rhythm and keep everyone together can be a bit like trying to push a rope.) # It seems as though your bandmates are willing to settle for the status quo, and the long-term solution might be to find others who share your dedication and enthusiasm, and are willing to put in the time and efforts necessary to grow musically as a group. That might seem to be a drastic solution, but if the situation doesn't improve, why continue to frustrate yourself doing something that should be enjoyable.

[Michael H Geimer]

Pushing a rope! LOL!

That's certainly what it can feel like. I perhaps exaggerate the probelem, because our audiences always love the shows. That's rule #1.

Rroyd, you ask if these guitarsist take breaks, well they take fantastic breaks! But they're not Bluegrass players, and I think that's where some of the problem lies, in that they don't instinctively volunteer their efforts to prop up the groove.

They guys aren't really left out. We all bring new song to the table constantly. But, over time I've learned dozens of tunes that the guys either weren't interested in playing, were too crooked, or didn't think were right for our typical bar crowd, etc. Also, I think I'm just a more driven musican than the other guys. I learn more songs, more often.

So I found a coffee house where I could go play these other songs ... and that's the material I'm really worried about on Sunday, the songs the band doesn't really know, but will likely want to play along with anyways ... and with no real idea of what the song is supposed to sound like. (Of course, neither will the crowd, so fake it 'til you make it.)

Bottom line ... no one has ever told us we suck. I'm going to try to not be nervous or uptight, and just trust that everyone will enjoy themselves Sunday. Including myself.

In fact, my concerns were never about embassing myself in front of a crowd, but rather that it's often no fun trying to "push a rope".

I'd like to be the guy who get to 'coast' for a change. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

- Benignus

[StoneSt]

Good topic, band dynamics are always interesting. #This may sound harsh but, if they want to play out with you...shouldn't they know the songs? And their role in creating the whole feel? #I wouldn't feel bad about doing solo gigs while the band is still working up their parts.

Have you talked to any of them about driving for a while when you are playing mando? #What kind of response do you get? Do they listen to or practice with BG songs to get a feel for what you mean by driving? You might suggest Doc to the other guitarists as an example of good drivin' technique! ;) #

Keep pickin' --Bob

[Michael H Geimer]

Yeah. I think band dynamics are truly at the heart of this as well. But, I'm going to make an effort to avoid making this a polical issue by trying to convince people to see things my way.

It will be a better challenge, and I'll likely be a much stronger player, if I can work out a way to really 'drive' from behind a mandolin.

To Sunburt's point above, there are elements of the bassist's role that perhaps I can incorporate into my own playing, if only in spirit; foot-tapping on the 1 comes to mind, or maybe some other percussive slap of the strings. (We're in no way a BG group, so I can be creative)

Also, body language might be my best ally. I recall that the strongest leaders I've seen at jams - usually bassists - had exaggerated body language almost the way stage actors do. So, I might try to be visually more obvious to make up for the bass runs and cues that I used to play on the guitar. If the guitarists sit up on stools, perhaps I'll stand.

The other thought I've had would be to mix up chop chords and double stops to emulate a guitarist's role. I might chop for most of my time on a chord, then switch to a double stop or three-note voicing that might emphasize the 7th, or otherwise guide the listener - and presumably my bandmates - towards the next chord. (Yeah right ... all while singing ... LOL! )

It's going to be very difficult for me to ge to that level of confidence and control behind a mandolin. But, when I confindently lay down a feel on guitar, and stay in comminication with the guys, the band does get behind me and everything stays together. So, I think I'm going to try stepping up to the plate as taking my best swing ... and lots of batting practice.

- Benignus

... who writes with the confidence of knowing the Prime Offender in our band - the bongo player - couldn't get his flight changed, and won't be playing this afternoon. So, things might just naturally be more 'Grassy' without the 'carribbean influence'. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[StoneSt]

[QUOTE]who writes with the confidence of knowing the Prime Offender in our band - the bongo player - couldn't get his flight changed, and won't be playing this afternoon...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Good luck with the show.

--Bob

[Michael H Geimer]

" Good luck with the show. "

Hey thanks!

One guitarist even told me my mando-rhythym was tight today, and that it was easy to follow! A good start, I guess. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

- Benig

[Rroyd]

You should get one of those blocks of wood with the pickup on it that you tap your foot on; then you could do the bass drum on it and the off-beat snare on the mandolin. That'd keep them in line. Glad it went well, and good luck on getting them trained.

[Michael H Geimer]

" ... good luck on getting them trained. "

I'm looking at more as gett me trained. Ideally, I'd like to get strong enough that I could call a tune at a jam from behind the mandolin, and successfully guide a jam through the tune.

I'll surely be needing that 'good luck' you've kindly offered. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[duuuude]

Benig-
I feel your pain, that's exactly the problem I have with my beginner's jam group, trying to lead/sing/play all at the same time. It cracks me up when I stumble on a break & they all fall apart since nobody is carrying the rhythm, but in our case it doesn't really matter. We're usually saved by the banjo player who happens to have a great sense of timing but only seems to step in when there's trouble, LOL. See, ya shoulda bought that banjo at Strawberry!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Flowerpot]

"Rroyd, you ask if these guitarsist take breaks, well they take fantastic breaks! But they're not Bluegrass players, and I think that's where some of the problem lies, in that they don't instinctively volunteer their efforts to prop up the groove."

Sounds like to me that's the whole problem. It's been my experience that many guitarists who have never played bluegrass or old-time don't have any concept of the rythmic responsibilities of each instrument in a drum-less band. They want to follow somebody, like a drummer. But to sound decent, you can't have ANY followers -- everybody has to be on top of the beat, each person driving it. If you have a really strong bass player, you can get by with a follower or two, but otherwise it's a train wreck.

Sounds like to do what you want to do, you need some different personnel.

[Bluegrass Boy]

Yeah, I relatively new to mando (about 4 years now). I am definitely less confident leading a song on mando than on guitar. I'm not sure if its a function of the limits of the instruments or the limits of my abilities on the instruments. Probably some of both, but a bit more my limits.

Band dynamics are a whole other issue. I gotta hand it to you benignus, you are obviously focusing on your abilities, something you can change, instead of you bandmates abilities or approach to the music, which you can influence subject to their willingness to be influenced. A strong leader is generally going to be better and leading a band.

[Michael H Geimer]

"They want to follow somebody, like a drummer."

LOL! Yep. That is something I've been saying for years now!

We do have a bongo player, but he is a complete novice. He does have great natural timing, but no clue whatsoever. e.g. He knows that something is different about that waltz we play, but he has no concept of why it's different - 3/4 vs. 4/4. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Maybe someday - when I've made some headway as a mandolin player / band leader - I'll go looking for a proper band. But, right now I'm gonna stay put.

After all, this is the most fun I've ever had in a band, and it's our casual culture that makes it so enjoyable.

These musical shortcommings I gripe about are ultimately just personal hang-ups. Our audiences love us.

Even musicians that see us often comment on how great is is to hear people who 'keep it real'. So, some aspects of our sloppiness can actually come across well. Like watching a cat fall off a table ... it's akward on the way down, but pretty impressive if he lands on his feet! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Walking into work this morning, another pedestrian said to me, "Hey, you guys were great yesterday". So, we can't be as sloppy as I make sound. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

- Benig

... I take that back, we probably are that sloppy, but maybe sloppiness just doesn't count as much as we all think.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Benig,
Yep, they were using you as a crutch. Now that you're on mandolin, the crutch is too small (heh) to hold them up.

I like the idea of teaching your guys the way that the chord shapes look when you play them. I've been trying to figure out banjo chords by looking at them and hearing the chord at the same time.

I'm thinking that if you let them pick tunes to teach the group you may also tranfer that crutch to another band member.

Find a bass player. The most fun I've ever had playing mando was at a beginner's jam where the bass player and I were new ot BG, but not to playing. We locked in tight and the jam rolled along with out a break for 2 hours. I never took a solo, it would have thrown everyone. I got tendonitits in my right elbow because of it, but it was a blast.

Break a leg!
Daniel

[Michael H Geimer]

I'd sure love to have a bassist, but finding an upright player who wants to work for free likely is impossible, and I am pretty firm in my commitment to maintaining an all acoustic line-up ... we don't even use a P.A. for vocals.

* * *

Once when this group was first developing, Parker made a comment about cues and 'driving' by saying, "Mike's our bass player." He meant that I was the guy feeding the cues and holding down the tempo, etc. just as we've been discussing.

Well, our lead singer at the time - who was hung up on image and audience perception - replied, "What do mean Mike's the bass player?" Then he turned to me and said, "Mike, I think chicks will still think you're cool, even if you're just playing rhythm guitar." LMOA!!!!!!!

I guess a lot of people do think of bassists as just 'lesser guitarists' - i.e. not 'good enough' to play lead - without any concept of the responibility that role entails. Once again, probably the result of too much Rock-n-Roll, and too much radio.

[Ken Sager]

<snip>
Once again, probably the result of too much Rock-n-Roll, and too much radio.
And not enough understanding of what music in a group requires...

Been there with a bass player, been there without. It's easy for folks to rely on something that holds everything together without realizing it. Once one dynamic changes their cue is gone and they can't hold it together on their own.

You're an enabler, Mike. You playing guitar enables them to get by without having to seriously work on timing, or even learning tunes, or playing together because you're holding it together.

Been there, too.

Best,
Ken

[duuuude]

[quote=Benignus,June 28 2004, 14:12]<snip>
You're an enabler, Mike. You playing guitar enables them to get by without having to seriously work on timing, or even learning tunes, or playing together because you're holding it together.
Sounds like Ken hit the nail on the head, just going through the same-ol'-same-ol' can give some the opportunity to slack & just kinda ride along. Mix it up for 'em a bit from time to time just to keep 'em from gettin' complacent.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Dennis Schubert]

If you want something different, ya gotta do something different...that might include finding yourself a better guitar player.

[Fred G]

Benig,
Sounds like a similar situation to mine. We are pretty much an acoustic folk/rock group that plays some bluegrassy songs. Trouble is none of the others know the songs so it is hard to teach them. They are all excellent musicians but it is sort of a square peg-round hole situation.
Last Friday I played as a duo with one of my bandmates who happens to be a pro. It was a lot easier to get him to follow the rythm on some new songs with just the two of us. Maybe they have trouble when their are 2 guitars, bass and mando... He threw a few songs at me that I had never played too, and it made for a fun evening. Same as your situation, crowd loved us as always...
maybe you could rotate who you want to play with you at the coffeehouse and take a different band member each week. Then slowly take 2 and build it up...

[otterly2k]

Benig-
I can so relate to what you're saying...even though it's been a long time since I played in an ensemble with pluckers... I lead an a capella group, and the dynamics are much the same.

In order for a song to work, somebody gets to sing lead/melody, and the rest of us have to sing background / rhythmic parts. Despite the fact that most people pay closer attention to the lead singer(s), it's the rhythm/backgrount parts where the REAL action is happening. The singers who are better musicians appreciate this, and will sing a repetitive/rhythm part or drone with focused attention, good breathing, good vocal technique, etc. Those who are not tend to get bored and sloppy both rhythmically and pitch-wise, and the whole piece suffers.

It sounds to me like you need to be playing with people who are better ensemble-minded musicians, or who want to develop those skills. If everyone is only interested in playing lead and not interested in supporting OTHER leads with equal quality, attention, and musicianship, then you will always have a mediocre band.

Also-- 90+% of your audiences will never hear your mistakes unless they are totally obvious train wrecks. To me, the bottom line is not only whether the audience enjoyed it...it's whether the performers enjoyed it and felt they did their best. The fact that you are raising these questions tells me that you are not entirely satisfied... so good on you for striving to better yourself and your skills... you will learn quickly which of your bandmates are with you.

Finally, I sympathize with how tiring it can be to provide a disproportionate amount of the leadership in a group...to want to be able to relax and coast a bit. Chances are good that you will not have that in your current group where you are clearly the leader... you may seek additional involvement in a group where you can be a follower. Being in a different role will teach you different lessons. Also, it will meet different musical needs (rather than trying to force the one band to meet them all... which will only make you tired!).

KE

[Michael H Geimer]

Fred,
Yep. That sound familiar!

I was on the phone with 'new guitarist' Dave last night. He is the one guy with at least some previous Bluegrass experience. He came on board a few months back as my replacement, so that I could finally make a complete move over to playing mandolin.

Dave's only real performance issue is that he's been playing catch-up trying to get all the changes down.

Well, we decided between us last night to start playing more often as a dou, booking gigs, practicing outside of the group setting, etc. Then if the other guys show up and play along with us ... great! ... if they flake or can't make it ... everything's still fine.

So, I think I've got a plan for my particular band issues. But, I still think I have much work to do regarding the idea of driving a group from behind a mandolin. #After all, as a singing mandolin player I really have to work through this, or I will forever be limited and frustrated.

- Benig

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I can relate to this plight. I was once the banjo player in our band, and I play in a straight-ahead Sammy Shelor style. I can also sing while playing, so it was easy to keep the timing going and play licks that lead the rest of the band. Then, we had to ask our mandolin player to step aside because he wouldn't learn the band material. Since I could play mandolin and all we could find was another banjo player, well you can see where this is going. I've had to learn licks that lead up to chord changes, and also play rhythm a little more in a guitar style in addition to the chop chords. As far as advice on this subject goes, mine is still a work in progress, so I'll be as interested as you, Benigus, to see how it all plays out.

[derrickrc]

I am a classically trained pianist and vocalist learning the mandolin. A problem I have noticed in non professional gigs such as church or in rock and roll bands up is that no one is in control or there isn't a uniformity of purpose.. Not every one in the band is on the same page.(classical music doesn't have this particular problem) It sounds like you are being depended on to lead and make all the decisions but you arn't respected as the band leader. if everyone took responsiblity to learn their own parts, identify problems, and correct them before the rehearsal there wouldn't be as much as a need for a "leader" to give people homework or attempt to "coax" them in playing a certain way. maybe you should consider starting again from ground zero, write out the expectations you have for people you want in a band and then find new players who agree to those expectations.

[Keith Wallen]

Benignus - Please forgive me if I am repeating anyone else because I didn't read all the responses but I might take a different approach and not blame it on the rest of the band members. When I am working with newer players or even learning a new song with the band I am in I tend to over drive to get the point across until everyone catches on to the changes or even the dynamics of the song mainly by using 7th chords i.e. going from G to C I will through in a G7 just before the C and everyone knows that the change is coming up. I may also use some differnt strumming styles that anticipate a change. Once everyone starts catching on I usually back it off some or not depending on the dynamics of the tune. Hope that helps.

[Michael H Geimer]

" Please forgive me if I am repeating anyone else ... "

Well, there are two camps. I'm in them both.

I do agree with most of the replys telling me that my best hope of meeting my needs might come from starting again with a more naturally motivateed group. In time.

Nevertheless, I think this thread, and my issues are better served by discussing musical methods of 'driving' that apply to broader situations than just my folk group. (OK, admitedly, I'm feeding the gossip end of this thread as much as anymore ... more so, since I started it all. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif)

Last night I attempted to apply as much of these ideas as I could. I found speaking out loud about the changes - while the song was going - held us together better than anything else. e.g., "Headed to the five!", or another I picked up from a nurse, "Big noise."

I did sucessfully use dom7 double stops to anticipate some changes, sliding into them for extra emphasis. Also, I tried to practice authoritative lead picking by really attacking the 3-beat kick-offs leading into my breaks.

Nevertheless ... a mandolin just cannot trump a bongo player whose eyes are closed. Stillhouse was better titled Stallhouse as it just got slower and slower. I was cracking Dave up by being soooooo obvious about the need to get back up to tempo, but Bongo-man was in his own zone ... his own groove.

Tough crowd last night, tough crowd ... glad it was just us. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Keith Wallen]

"Nevertheless ... a mandolin just cannot trump a bongo player whose eyes are closed. Stillhouse was better titled Stallhouse as it just got slower and slower. I was cracking Dave up by being soooooo obvious about the need to get back up to tempo, but Bongo-man was in his own zone ... his own groove."
Ha ha.... Ohhh I laugh and cry at the same time on that one! Your right that's a horse of a different color.

Good luck! It may be tough to find one that will keep his eye's open though... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Dan Adams]

Benig:

I've been watching this thread from afar, and now its time to chime in from a different angle. #I too am the defacto leader of the 'band' (bluegrass, old timey tunes, celtic tunes, and some original folksey songs). I am a mandolin player, not a singer, but the onstage MC. #We don't play professionally, but play out on occasion when it is requested and when it fits into our busy schedules.

One reason I'm the defacto leader is not the musical skills, but the Management skills. #When a new tune or song is being learned, we all get the music, and if necessary transpose it to the key of the singer. #All set list are typed out with the Key, a Capo position for guitar players, and the chord progressions. #When we practice we use our mic set-up and practice our on stage interactions, ie stepping up to the mic when its your lead, etc... #We practice set list when we practice and record our practice sessions. #We all listen to the practice CD's together, and make our critiques. #We also got in the habit of recording our 'gigs' and using them for the same purpose. #Some of it is ugly by the way. #What we think sounded good on stage at the times can be horrific on CD.

During the practices, I step out of the group and listen to the harmonies, the leads, the lead-ins, etc... #I'm my worse critic by the way. #Consequently I get to make those suggestions, like that sounded bad, don't compete with fill in leads, maybe you shouldn't sing on this one.... #Our female bass player, is our harshest critic, never afraid of voicing her opinion, good at what she does, and has been a great addition. #So far the dynamics are working great, we are all open minded, take the critiques as constructive, and trying to improve individually and as a band. #It does help that we are all about the same age, the same ability, and this is our second, or third, go-around in the genre. #

I too have to transpose to Eb, Bbmin, not very effectively I'll confess, and get tired of it at times, but I've become a better mandolin player because of the requirements of being the guy with the little funny instrument. #Different angle and is it pertinent? #Maybe.

Is band management to clinical to be creative? Dan

[jlb]

I obviously don't know the interpersonal dynamics of your band, but one thing I have found quite useful is that one person be the leader for each song. If one person has a vision for how a song is supposed to sound, they can orchestrate that vision to reality given the technical ability of the musician's to execute the concepts.

Not saying here that one person be the leader for every song you play, but that one person (maybe two) be the leader for individual song. If you have every band member trying out there stuff in a free-for-all, the chances of the song ending up okay diminish. At least in my experience.

It's kind of fun too, because naturally if one person takes ownership of a song, your band sound will be really diverse. And you'd probably end up with a good mix of mando-centric tunes, b@njo-centered tunes, fiddle-centric tunes, and usually folks have a whole slew of vocal tunes they like to play.