Tap tuning ?

[dt in ky]

what does the top plate tap to before the tone bars are installed? lets say for a g# a# tone bar tuning, your suggestions would be appriciated. thanks dt

[sunburst]

...your suggestions would be appriciated.
Don't worry about it, and just build the mandolin.

[dt in ky]

no worries,just trying to build consistancy.thanks for your reply anyway sunburst.

[Rick Schmidlin]

There is great artical in the recent Acoustic Guitar about tap tuning with mando content.

[Bill Snyder]

If you do a search of the forum you will find that there has probably been at least three or four threads a year started on this topic. You will also find that more of the PROFESSIONAL builders say that they DO NOT tap tune than say they do. That is why John Hamlett said "Don't worry about it, and just build the mandolin".

[MikeEdgerton]

If you do a search of the forum you will find that there has probably been at least three or four threads a year started on this topic.
Right you are Bill, and Darrell can start out by looking at these (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=Search&CODE=02&SID=4814bd282ac9879d) threads. If he needs more there are more. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[David Newton]

Bill, you trying to get a rise out of somebody?
Darrell, I tap when I'm building, but I'm not taping to any note that I know of. I'm just looking for a loud "bonk" that sort of tells me that I've cut away enough of whatever I'm cutting on.

[Bill Snyder]

Bill, you trying to get a rise out of somebody?
Darrell, I tap when I'm building, but I'm not taping to any note that I know of. I'm just looking for a loud "bonk" that sort of tells me that I've cut away enough of whatever I'm cutting on.
No Dave. After your comment about the dog being everywhere I thought I would let him visit you. It was supposed to put a smile on your face, not get a rise out of you.

FWIW that is me in the background of the avatar now.

[David Newton]

Rats! I'm gone!
I loved it Bill. And your pup behaved real well in the shop.

[markishandsome]

Even if a lot of pro builders tuned their plates to specific notes, they probably wouldn't all tune to the same note. There's no real reason to choose any particular note over any other since they all get scrambled when you glue the parts together anyway.

[Stephanie Reiser]

Friend of mine recently built a mandola with Roger's plans. He thought it best to "tap tune" the instrument, so he bought the Siminoff equipment: software, book, hammer, etc. and proceeded to carve away. Well, when the back plate had gotten down to .160 in the center, he called Roger and asked for advice. Roger said he could go as far as .150, but no further. I must admit that I played it and it sounds quite lovely and is loud. When you strum it you can feel that back plate vibrate.
I....dunno. I think I will just carve to dimension, and tap and listen.

[dt in ky]

all i'm saying is i'm not after a specific note.i guess is what i'm asking is what would you tune a plate to before tone bars are added to arrive at a specific tuning. such as one whole note or one half note ect. below the target tuning.thanks again for your input.

[Bill Snyder]

Darrel I think there are several of the builders that can't tell you. They do not do it that way.

[Michael Lewis]

Some wood will defy your attempts to tune it, other wood can be tuned but not give good results as part of the completed instrument. Strange how uncooperative wood can be sometimes. Carve your tops for structure, glue your tone bars, and then tune them. You will have much better luck tuning the bars after the top has been glued to the rim assembly.

[Chadmills]

Have to say I look for a "bong" rather than a "bonk" Dave http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
(Strictly within the terms of reference of this discussion, of course.)
Tap tuning to specific notes does prompt the question, "what about pitch changes since the Loar era?"
To his credit there's an article about this on Roger Siminoff's website.

[markishandsome]

i guess is what i'm asking is what would you tune a plate to before tone bars are added to arrive at a specific tuning. such as one whole note or one half note ect. below the target tuning.

This depends on way too many factors for anyone to give you more than a ballpark guess. Besides, your "target tuning" of the top and the bars will be lost when you attatch the sides. If you're looking for consistancy just do the best you can on this one and take notes on the tap tone at various stages of construction. The actual pitches are completely irrelevant as long as you use the same ones every time.

[Geoff B]

I agree I'm listening for "BONG!" when the plate is free, then a little more "BONK!" with the tone-bars on, before its attached to the rims. Finally once it is tuned on the rims I'm listening for a strong, but tight "PING!". I'm teaching 4 people to build them right now, and we all have what sound like very active, responsive tops, but the tap tones are probably spread out over an interval of a fifth or so. I'll double check on that tonight. And we are all using the same species, from the same supplier. I'm just not sure a particular frequency or frequency range is what you are looking for.

[dt in ky]

i do understand that every thing you do changes tones,after tap tuning the last mando i built and installed the lining for the back it changed the tone by 50 cents. the top was granuated .115 in the thinest point.when the tone bars were shaved they ended up fairly thin after tap tuning to g# a flat.so i think that top was still alittle thick.so it stands to reason that there has to be a happy medium on the free plate tone to keep from shaving the tone bars down to .25 thick. or is this normal?

[David Newton]

I would have to change my whole way of building, going from the historical "bonk" to this new-fangled "bong". I'm again' it!

[markishandsome]

it stands to reason that there has to be a happy medium on the free plate tone to keep from shaving the tone bars down to .25 thick. or is this normal?

Do you mean 1/4" thick top to bottom or 1/4" wide side to side? Either way it doesn't sound too crazy. Your top may have just been made of denser wood than what Roger was using when he made up his specs, it wasn't nessicarily too thin. How did this instrument end up sounding? Again, there's nothing special about G# or Ab, so why bend over backwards to get there? If you have a good ringing tap tone at any pitch your instrument will sound just fine. Bonk and bong are both acceptable, but stay clear of boink. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[dt in ky]

this instument sounds great,#2 is in the white and ready for color,#3has the top carved and ready for tone bars. all 3 have tight grain. i'm getting more comfortable with this tuning stuff as things go.thanks to all that responded. dt

[Links]

Quote: "Don't worry about it, and just build the mandolin."

Best comment that I have heard since I have been on this forum! Period!

"Thinking too much" is a malady that comes with all professions. Don't know for sure, but I'll bet that some of the best mandolins built have been ones where factor x (whether it be luck, circumstance, etc.) was involved. The fact that some of our builder members build consistently great mandolins, does not mean that there is not sometimes (maybe often) an element that they cannot just explain that makes one mandolin better than the other.

My greatest complaint of other folks in my profession is that they "think" too much. Quit thinking and start "doing"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[peter.coombe]

I'm not so sure I agree with the "thinking too much". Maybe for a new builder starting out the most important thing is to stop thinking about it and go and build the damn thing. You will learn far more from building it than thinking about how you are going to build it. However, once it is built then it is time to think about how it was built and how it could be improved. Personally I believe that once that first mandolin has been finished, if you want to make more, the best approach is to do both.

[Dave Cohen]

I'll chime in with Peter. It's a strange and fatuous line of reasoning (or lack thereof) that somehow concludes that the way to do something very complicated is to not think about it. Kind of closely related to the notion that because we don't know everything about how a mandolin works, what we do know is of no use to us.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[james condino]

Bong vs. bonk? I'd have to redo my entire way of building to use that method. For years I've been tuning the two tone #bars to "tick" and "tock".....

j.
www.condino.com

[Links]

Peter Coombe and Dave Cohen disagree with "thinking too much"!

Case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[siminoff]

Tap tuning is a very real and rather simple art. Basically, it is a method to determine the stiffness of the soundboard and backboard, as well as to determine the proper size for the soundhole(s) of the instrument.

Stiffness and pitch are inextricably connected. For example, if you tune a G string to pitch and then measure its tension, you might come up with something like 14.565 pounds (example). If then you slacken that string and just focus on re-tensioning it back to 14.565 pounds you will again arrive at the G.

As to adjusting an instrument’s part to a pitch, think of the bars on a xylophone. Those bars are the most obvious example of something being tap tuned. Removing wood from the length of the bar causes the pitch to increase. (And while you might argue that the bars on a xylophone are producing notes and the body of an instrument isn’t, I’ll hold on that argument for this post.)

We can apply the same criteria to a soundboard or backboard (but it works a bit differently from the xylophone bars). When we remove wood from a tone bar or brace, we weaken the plate and lower the pitch. The pitch also changes depending on where the braces and tone bars are attached - the closer the tone bar is to the center of the plate, the higher the resonant frequency of the plate. Further, increasing the size of the aperture(s) raised the resonant frequency of the air chamber and decreasing the size lowers the frequency of the air chamber.

This means of adjusting the stiffness of soundboards and backboards ensures instrument-to-instrument consistency and is more reliable than graduating to a specific thickness. Picking up a board and tapping on it – hearing its “tapped tone” – is very different from tap tuning the parts of an instrument to specific notes.

If all you used tap tuning for was to know something about the stiffness of your soundboard and backboard instrument-to-instrument, that would be great information to have on hand and give you hard date to shoot for or change when you build your next instrument.

As far as history reveals, the Amati family began the idea of Tap Tuning in the 1500s and this was handed down to their disciples Guarneri and Stradivari. In the early 1920s, Loar – who was fascinated by the early violin makers – brought the technology to Gibson. The Loar-signed mandolins were tap tuned. Backboard = C, soundboard = A (bass tone bar) and A# (treble tone bar) and an air chamber was tuned to a D. However, these instruments were tuned to concert pitch of C256 (which was the concert pitch of the time), so the tuning is ¼ tone off when the instrument’s strings are tuned to A440 (today’s concert pitch) (When A=440Hz, C is 261Hz.) I think this ¼ tone tuning is one of the primary characteristics that makes F5s sound so great today. An interesting experiment is to tune the strings on an original F5 to concert pitch C256 and hear the difference – it’s amazing.

At the expense of seeming to hype a book, there is a detailed text on tap tuning called the Art of Tap Tuning and it comes with a 50 minute DVD on many experiments and demonstrations on how tap tuning works and how to do it. You can get it from StewMac, Amazon, music stores, etc.

Once you learn how to recognize the note, tap tuning is not hard to do and there are a lot of folks who are using the technology today.

Best,
Roger

[testore]

I've been to the Stradivari museum, I've seen all the available documents from that cities violin making history and I have never seen any evidence that ANY of the great violin makers tap tuned their work. I have been blessed to have worked with the very best in the business from restorers, makers and experts and none of them have ever mentioned this evidence. It simply doesn't exist.

[CES]

Mr. Siminoff, thanks for chiming in. I'll also mention that the book is available on your web site as well http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

I'm reading the latest edition of your instruction "manual" and am impressed...hope to be building soon, but for the next couple of weeks I'm going through the exercise of thinking too much about it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I like the advice to "just build it," which is the point I'm actually getting close to. I figure I'll mess a lot of things up with the first one, but if I don't get on it I'm never gonna finish, now am I? I'll also never learn how to get through the process and improve my work...but, I understand where the original poster is coming from also. In general, more knowledge is a good thing.

Thinking of installing a padded wall so I don't hurt myself when I start banging my head out of frustration!

[buddyellis]

Rule #21 of building, when you get frustrated, walk away. You'll wish you did about 2 minutes later.

[elvisNoir]

I've been to the Stradivari museum, I've seen all the available documents from that cities violin making history and I have never seen any evidence that ANY of the great violin makers tap tuned their work. I have been blessed to have worked with the very best in the business from restorers, makers and experts and none of them have ever mentioned this evidence. It simply doesn't exist.
I once heard this from a legitimate source, although it has been a while:
the gist of it is that many of the old violins from any given "famous builder" often reveal consistent vibration patterns in the plates, the whole instrument, and similar tonal quality to the instrument.

The presumption was that they had done some sort of testing to ensure that they were getting their desired result. Does that indicate some sort of tuning??
I'm just asking...

[kestrel]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[peter.coombe]

I am not a violin expert, but from all the reading on vioin research I have done, there was no evidence ever presented that any of the old violin makers used tap tuning. It was inferred that they must have because the instruments are consistently good. Inference is not evidence, it is just a hypothesis that as far as I know is not supported by good solid evidence.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with Roger in that tap tuning or Chladni free plate tuning can be used to maintain consistency, and it is far more reliable than carving to specific dimensions. Wood is variable in it's physical properties, even if taken from the same tree. However, I would like to point out that the frequency of the free plate modes (or tap tones) are dependent on stiffness and density of the wood, not just stiffness. Stiffness is of course very important, but so is density (i.e. weight).

[Michael Lewis]

Consistency of results is what is important here. Plate tuning is certainly one way to get there. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[martinedwards]

Ah how refreshing to hear people discussing this without the usual holy grail rubbish.

I LOVE this place!!!

and for tops it's definitely bong

[markishandsome]

Consistency is one thing, but I think a lot of first time builders mistakenly see tap tuning as a way to guarantee loar tone out of their first build.

[james condino]

Your first build should be taken for what it is, a learning experience. Don't get too worked up about all of the details. Start building an understanding of the relationships between your eyes, the flow of your hands and tools while carving a fine piece of tonewood, and the subtle nuances of all their interdependencies.

A great majority of the students I work with get so worked up about the fine points that it takes them several instruments before they learn to sharpen a chisel or plane properly.

If you really want to learn how to capture that elusive Loar sound, get a detailed plan of a known great sounding Loar instrument, get 80 year seasoned tonewoods of exactly the same species and cut as the Loar you are after, seek out good advice and mentorship from someone who builds a great Loar clone, and then realize that it takes decades of building instruments to pull together all of the details to get it right. Even then, ask most of the folks here who build great instruments and they'll tell you that they will spend the rest of their life still refining the nuances.

If you really want to emulate old Lloyd in the highest sense, remember that his personal rig was a ten stringed A style mandola, not an F5!

The whole idea is that it is supposed to be fun. Worry less, build more, turn your computer off, and the details will come in time...

j.
www.condino.com

[Links]

James - that is great advice and pretty much sums it up! My "tongue in cheek" reference to "thinking too much" does have some practical application as your reference to students get too hung up in the "fine points". Like all professions where art and science come together, there are also a number of "intangibles" that are learned, developed, or innate that come into play and no one will ever be able to explain them properly. I was once asked how I know to do something and the only answer I could come up with was "I just do". Not very scientific, but true.

[peter.coombe]

I agree, James that is good advice. I have had so many people ask me how they should tune the plates of their first mandolin, or should they buy master grade Spruce. Answer is usually don't worry about it, waste of time (and money) for the first instrument (especially for "master" grade Spruce!). Start thinking about these sorts of things after you have a few mandolins under your belt and know how to make them (or think you do), and want to continue to improve and maintain consistency. After 100 instruments you might start to realise just how much you don't know. It is a lifetime persuit for excellence.