Vintage national

[Hohner Mando Abe]

I'm trying to help my cousin repair a 1929 national triolian ( all metal,painted) mandolin. It is in very good condition, except the tail piece is completly broken across the bend, & i would like to keep it original if possible, by finding the exact part. Any leads as to who might sell vintage parts would be greatly appreciated. Also, what type of strings would be recommended for this type of instrument.??; Any idea of its value??
Thanks for any help you may offer.

[mrmando]

Here's what I did when faced with a similar situation: I bought a cheapie Chinese-made Johnson on eBay, took off the tailpiece, replaced it with a Rigel tailpiece, and resold it here on the Cafe. Then I replaced the cracked National tailpiece with the new Johnson tailpiece.

I had to drill new holes in the Johnson mandolin for the Rigel tailpiece, and make a new tailblock for it out of a piece of scrap wood. But this was not difficult: I have no aptitude for woodworking, so if I could do it, anyone could. Of course one can't get Rigel tailpieces any more, but the Weber generic tailpiece or, if you can find one, a trapeze-style mandolin tailpiece should do the trick. No one is going to shed tears over a Johnson that isn't original. I don't think National is selling original-style tailpieces as parts (the new National RM1 has a completely different Orrico-style tailpiece), and I know for darn sure that Johnson doesn't sell them, since I tried to get one before going the route of buying the whole instrument. Replacing the tailpiece didn't seem to affect the Johnson's value much; I don't recall that I lost any money on it.

The National tailpieces are highly susceptible to the sort of crack that you describe, so finding a vintage tailpiece that doesn't have the crack and isn't attached to a mandolin will be a very tall order. Depending on the condition of the paint job, the stability of the neck joint, and how well it plays/intonates, a Triolian these days can go for $1,250 to $2,500. It's been a long time since I've seen one in the $700-800 range, which is what I paid for mine back in the day.

I would use light-gauge strings, given that the scale length on these things is about 15" and it's a bit of a chore getting standard-gauge strings up to pitch. Since the neck joints are often suspect, you don't want to be putting too much tension on them anyway.

[Jim Garber]

I was a similar situation quite a few years ago with my silver #2. I put an ad in VG then asking for anyone who had a National tp since the current National Company was sort of startup and weren't making mandolins anyway. Harry Eibert (http://eibertstringedinstruments.com/), an excellent repair person in Syracuse, NY was able to repair the existing tailpiece and make it actually stronger than it was.

BTW I have mine tuned down to E like the blues guys do with octaves on the lower two courses. I did not like the tone when it was tuned to mandolin pitch. Definitely light gauge if you want to go that route. Might also sound good as a mandola -- with lighter custom gauge strings.

[Hohner Mando Abe]

Thank you mrmando & jgarber for the quick replys to this search. I'll use your advice to help determine the best course of action. Also the advice about light strings & lower tuneing are good to consider when we get this instrument going. When you say tuned to E, do you mean an alternate tuning to the standard GDEA, or just tune it down in pitch to EBF#C# ?? Sorry I'm not a trained musician & only a novice Mando player. I've got a lot to learn. I would post pictures of this National mandolin, but I'm still trying to figure out how to post pictures on this forum. I'll try it in the future. Thanks again.

[Jim Garber]

Tuned down to E means when you play a G-chord it would sound in E -- like you said, "tune it down in pitch to EBF#C#" (low to high)

While we are waiting for your pics, here is a 1929 Triolian from Lowell Levinger's site:

http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/inst30/triolmandoful.jpg

[Hohner Mando Abe]

Hi Jgarber: Thanks for the research. I found that site last night, & thats how i determined our mando is a 1929. Ours looks exacly the same only in better condition, except for the broken tailpiece. I found a tailpiece on the "Elderly instruments" site tonight. It's meant for a Johnson resonator, but looks exacly the same. the only difference could be the placement of the mounting screw hole. I'm compilling all this info to give to my cousin so he can take it to a good luthier for the repair & also have it set up correctly after. Anyone know of a good shop to do this work in the Detroit area ?? Thanks again.

[mrmando]

Sure enough, the tailpiece is listed on the Elderly site, but it's out of stock. Give them a call on it. And if you're in Detroit, you might as well drive over to Elderly in Lansing to have the work done.

The mounting hole may indeed be in a different place, in which case you redrill the tailpiece, not the mandolin. I don't remember whether I had to do this when I replaced my tailpiece.

Did you check the serial number on yours? It's stamped into the wood on the end of the headstock. You can't determine the year just from the paint job. Anyone have a year-by-year list of National serial numbers?

[Frank Ford]

I've had a few of those tailpieces repaired by silver brazing and replating. Your local silversmith should be able to handle the job with ease. Find a shop that repairs silver tea service items, and that kind of thing.

[allenhopkins]

Anyone have a year-by-year list of National serial numbers?
Best one I know of is in Bob Brozman's book The History & Artistry of National Resonator Instruments (Centerstream Publishing, 1998).

That's where I figured out that my Triolian #6954 was probably late 1936 or early 1937. #

The Triolian pictured above has the "Walnut Sunburst" finish; mine is a much darker walnut, and mine also has a (somewhat deteriorated) celluloid pickguard. #Instead of the "National" decal, it has a b/w/b/w plastic headstock overlay, with "National" inscribed so that the white letters show through.

My tailpiece also cracked; I have a "shell" replacement on there now, but might investigate getting a more accurately-shaped replacement tailpiece.

[Paul Hostetter]

I've had Frank's favorite guy re-braze a few National tailpieces for me, most didn't last a year before they tore away again. The Johnson tailpieces are pretty nice. Buy three and keep the extras in the case. National's new tailpieces, which are actually inappropriate for vintage instruments, are really interesting. I think folks underestimate how much work that tailpiece really as to do.

[Hohner Mando Abe]

To mrmando and other posters on this site. The National Triolian resophonic mandolin I have posted about has the serial # 252. I'm wondering if anyone has a serial # list, or knows who to contact for one, it would be greatly appreciated. It would be nice to know what the year of production is. I'm trying to help my cousin in Detroit find out as much as we can about his late fathers instrument. We hope to get it restored so we can hear it make music again. I believe there are several luthiers in the Detroit area, & also "Elderley" in Lansing who is able to order the tail piece we need. Thank you all for your interest & help. Abe.

[Paul Hostetter]

Triolian mandolin numbering (according to Bob Brozman, who I believe) started at 0100 in 1930 and ended at around 650 in 1936. After that, if there were any made, they had the letter prefix numbers typical of Chicago instruments. Hence I would place this instrument in the 1932-33 zone. That's about as accurate as it's likely to get.