Newgrass

[mandopete]

Okay, I'm still having fun with these questions.

Here's this month's topic - what exactly is "newgrass"?

Now I know there was a band called Newgrass Revival and they had a mandolin player named Sam and blah, blah, blah. #But what is it that makes something newgrass and cite some good examples.

Once again, this topic will serve as fodder for my radio program, Bluegrass Ramble, so think of some good examples and give me some of what you think are the defining characteristics of this sub-genre.

Thanks In Advance!

[Scotti Adams]

..bluegrass outside the box..

[Stillpicking]

Bluegrass with various amounts of rock & country. A good example of a current band would be "Cast Iron Filter" out of NC . They make use of the mandolin and once and a while toss in some banjo. Mike Olando is their mando player, a real good one in my opinon. They have a hard driving sound to most of their music, they have a number of CDs out and have a Web site but I don' t have the url at my finger tips right now but it should be an easy search to find it.

[ira]

i think of newgrass as bands that have bluegrass as the base of their music in many of their tunes, use many traditional instruments, and even bust out some pretty trad tunes here and there, but also add a contemporary feel and other musical genre elements into the mix. some i know believe it to be bg music with a bit of a stretch, i am more liberal in my derivatives of bg definition.

certainly sam bush and his band, cast iron filter, railroad earth (as a band = i think the most talented instrumentally and the most willing to stretch the envelope as well as lean back to trad when they want of all of these bands), leftover salmon (drew is intensely good and they are a ton of fun), yonder mountain stringband (somewhat more trad than the others), some say s.c.i. (doesn't have a newgrassy feel to me). at times, del m. and his boys have more of a newgrass than bg feel to me.

again, this is all subjective and this is my opinion.

peace,
ira

[mandorado]

Yonder Mountain String Band ... Broke Mountain, from CO (NC)

[mandopete]

Good stuff - keep it comming. #Here's another thing to ponder....is Newgrass any different than "JamGrass" or "DawgGrass"?

I have beard mention of Yonder Mountain String Band, which usually gets tagged with the JamGrass genre, but no mention of David Grisman. #Do folks see his endeavors as something different all together?

I think the influenece of rock 'n roll is pretty common within Newgrass. #What about bands like the Seldom Scene and others who include rock and pop tunes in their repertoire?

Just some thoughts.

[mad dawg]

is Newgrass any different than "JamGrass" or "DawgGrass"?
Isn't Jam Grass simply New Grass, but with addition of extended solos, and exceptionally loyal fans who follow the band from venue to venue and then dance really wierd while wearing lots of tie-dye?

[ira]

great description. just a slight offshoot of newgrass

[Tim Saxton]

is Newgrass any different than "JamGrass" or "DawgGrass"?
Isn't Jam Grass simply New Grass, but with addition of extended solos, and exceptionally loyal fans who follow the band from venue to venue and then dance really wierd while wearing lots of tie-dye?
And don't forget the grilled cheese sandwiches and dredlocks. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I would put YMSB in a Jamgrass catagory. It has a real hippy feeling to me.

Tim

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Dawg music, in my opinion, would be considered jazz grass.

Bluegrass - musical genre that has no agreed upon definition but "you know it when you hear it"
Newgrass - musical genre that is almost bluegrass but "ain't part of nuthin'"

[Darren]

To me the quintessential Newgrass record is Bela Fleck's Drive. Fantastic record!!!

[Tom C]

<span style='color:purple'>It's bluegrass with more chords</span> http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[busstopeddy]

I think one of the hallmarks of Newgrass is a more contemporary vocal style - a bit less of the high lonesome tenor.

Also the presence of drum kits is a dead giveaway.

[zeke]

Great question, Pete, and one I have pondered ad infinitum as our group gets pegged as such often. I think we all who indulge in "alt-grass" owe a huge debt ot the lineage. I remember hearing the Scene doing their encores and playing so far out of the box it was like a revelation (back in the day). And I hungrily looked forward to the Revival shows like manna. One of the aspects that keeps our band working regularly (as opposed to the straight died in the wool bg groups which can't find any consistant gigs #around here) is the very strong influence (mix) of swing, rock, folk, jazz, et al, mixed with a sense of humor and a willingness to not take oneself too seriously. The "musical joke/tip of the hat" seems to be germaine to most of the new genre.

Are the nights where we play our tunes/sets in the arraangements we have practiced "newgrass", but when we indulge in long deranged solos and the set arrangement is thrown out the window "jamgrass"? Do we switch genres on those evenings? Do we have to change our union card designation?#Hmmmmm...... Inquiring minds want to know....

I think of Dawg music as a genre unto itself, and almost denigrating to tag "grass" onto it.

Interestingly, we have recently gotten booked for a fest in So. Lake Tahoe (SustainableGrassFest) that bills itself as "Progressive Bluegrass", another moniker that begs the same question.

[mandopete]

So I guess that Newgrass really means the combination of musical influences from other genres such as rock and jazz with the traditional bluegrass form and instrumentation. #For me this includes the early work of the David Grisman Quintet, some of the things the Seldom Scene did (and to some extent the Country Gentlemen) and some other bands that haven't been mentioned such as Country Cooking and maybe even Hot Rize.

You have hit one aspect right on the head there Zeke - seems like most of these bands don't take themselves too seriously. #I think there must be some sense of risk taking and fun that goes into what I would call Newgrass.

Thanks for the insights folks!

[GTison]

I've read that John Hartford was the father of Newgrass. How so? since NGR gets most of the credit these days. I don't really understand. I guess its in the murkey-bong-smoke past.

[mandopete]

I've read that John Hartford was the father of Newgrass. #How so? #
Must have been his association with Glenn Campbell eh?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Darren]

I think Hartford has been sited as the father of Newgrass partly because of his Steam Powered Aeroplane album. #There is a link on Cafe home page to an article with Norman Blake on CMT.com where he discusses this. #Here's the meat of it....

"Blake has always gravitated to interesting projects, including Hartford's Aereo Plain album. With an innovative approach on musical interplay and lyrical content, the album largely inspired the "newgrass" music movement in the early '70s. After recording a series of albums for RCA, Hartford moved to Warner Bros. -- at the time, predominantly a rock label -- for Aereo Plain. The band consisted of Hartford on banjo, Blake on guitar, Tut Taylor on Dobro and Vassar Clements on fiddle. With at least one open reference to marijuana use, Aereo Plain wasn't exactly embraced by the old guard of traditional bluegrass music, although younger musicians were intrigued by the unorthodox songs and arrangements. Unfortunately, the record label didn't quite understand Hartford's musical vision.

"John had made the shift to the counterculture at that point," Blake said. "Warners then wakes up and sees the cover of John with the aviator hat and everything. The first thing they said when they heard the record was, 'Where's the drums?'" Despite the critical acclaim, Aereo Plain was not a huge commercial success. As Blake explained, "So we never made it out of phase one."

And here is a little blurb from Sam Bush on Hartford's importance to Newgrass... "There wouldn't be any newgrass music without the contributions of John Hartford and the Aereo-Plain band," said his friend Sam Bush, who played mandolin and fiddle with the former New Grass Revival. "That was so influential - it was a no-boundaries sort of acoustic music."

Sorry for the long post but I am a HUGE Hartford fan. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Willie]

Pete...A perfecr definition is "bad rock and roll"....willie

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

The way I see it is when people first started doing different things from traditional bluegrass it was dubbed newgrass. Not alot of people were doing it so everything different was under the blanket term newgrass. Eventually the trend to experiment with dif influences became more popular and led to more subdivisions. Progressive bgrass-early lonesome river band, Dawg music/jazz grass-DGQ,Space grass, Tony Rice-Jam grass, leftover Salmon. Sam bush likes to refer to himself and other newgrass folks like Tony Rice and Bela as John Duffey's children. Bill Monroe's quote to Sam Bush was always my favorite.
BILL: "Hey Sam whats that type of music you play"
SAM "You mean newgrass"
BILL"Yeah, I hate it"

[ira]

i am always amazed by that monroe to bush quote. it just seems so smug for someone who took a conglomeration of influences to create a new sound, to be so caustic about any extensions or alternative interpretation of his music using it as part of a conglomeration of influences to create a new sound.

please don't bite at this post- not meant as a flame, i;ve just seen that little convo on this site numerous times, and it always strikes me as strange that a person who altered traditional music would have a problem with people altering his.
peace

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Yeah-takes a powerful personality to create something new-often that comes with lots of ego. maybe bill wanted to keep his vision of the music alive and saw the young, more technically proficient guys connecting with audiences. Maybe he thought his music would be taken over by the new stuff. or maybe he just hated it-who knows. i'm glad guys like bush came along. I don't like the drums in Bgrass thing but i love the Dawg/jazz/ space-grass stuff and the classical grass ALA Bela and Edger meyer too.

[Willie]

Not that I have to take up for Monroe but he wasn`t angry because someone was coming up with a new type of music, he hated the fact that it was called Bluegrass...He wanted his music to be kept simple and country, or traditional...Just listen to all of the newer songs that are coming out and listen to the mandolin breaks, a lot of fancy picking but not much melody...do I call this "good picking"? I don`t but some people do...some of the breaks don`t sound anything like the melody of the song and thats what Bill didn`t like...Now all of the new stuff has that Nashville sound where the music is louder than the people that are singing, I always thought the instruments were to accompany the singer when he/she was singing, not thses days....I`m just one person but I like it the way Bill meant it to be and I have voiced my opinion to a lot of the big "STARS" that seem to want to change just so they can make a dollar from all phases of our beloved music....Now I`ll get off of my soap box...Thanks for letting me get in my opinion....`til later....Willie http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Fretbear]

Don't feel bad, at least he didn't call it "####grass" to his face....
Bill was O.K. with new things, as long as he was the only one doing them...

[ira]

ouch! (never met the man, but sounds like a theory that makes sense).

[Ken Sager]

The band Psychograss is one of the best examples of newgrass in my opinion. Incredible talent, interesting twists on bluegrass musical forms, all played on the standard set of bluegrass instruments. Bela Fleck, Sam Bush, Jerry Douglas, etc., are also outstanding purveyors of fine newgrass. I consider newgrass to be more interesting instrumental music than bluegrass. Bluegrass seems to be about the singing, newgrass is more about the music.

Joy to all,
Ken

[Terrapin Station]

newgrass is pretty much anything with bluegrass instruments and at least one member being from a mountain.

dawgrass is a little different i think. more jazzy.

jamgrass is newgrass playing jamband music.

all three are great

[jlb]

OK, so where does acoustic Hippy Funk fit into all this?

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

It doesn't

[Ken Sager]

And yet it does...

[zeke]

And the various points of contention continues.............

[ira]

"OK, so where does acoustic Hippy Funk fit into all this? "

well, i'd say right after, electro-acoustic dawg inspired-jamgrass with a newgrass sonic and a jazz twist:p

lets face it as long as it sounds and feels good, and people enjoy it..its all good!

[mandopete]

Thanks for the references to the seminal recording Aereo-Plain. I believe that this is surely one of the pivotal recordings in the "newgrass" genre.

Funny, no mention of Nickel Creek. Hmmmm.

[ira]

ok, nickel creek!

[mandoJeremy]

It's all about NGR!

[kebmando]

Funny, no mention of Nickel Creek. Hmmmm.

I think an adequate descriptor, as I've heard used before, is "bubblegrass"

[mandopete]

Well, I for one disagree. #I think Nickel Creek is probably one of the best definitions of Newgrass. #They certainly combine many of the aspects of rock and jazz (and celtic and everything else) into a somewhat bluegrass intrumentation (excepting the banjo).

I guess most folks don't see them anything even remotely relating to Bluegrass, so no association with Newgrass.

Does Newgrass require a banjo? #What about David Grisman and Tony Rice's explorations?

[ira]

i would agree with nickel creek as a newgrass band, based on my feeling that its bluegrass tinged music with other influences. i think that the nice part of the newgrass era is kinda anything goes, and nothing truly defines it. i would think that would be how hartford, bush and the rest of those fellas would want it.

[kebmando]

I think I like the term bubblegrass because alot (and I know not all) of Nickel Creek music draws heavily from Top 40 and pop-country aesthetics, only put to acoustic sound.

Same with modern AKUS. Not saying this is good or bad, just different.

[zeke]

A lot of great mentions here; all stuff that shaped my plate at an early date. So leave us not forget that seminal first release of "old & in the way". How about Pure Prairie League, Earth Opera, , etc.....maybe even Seatrain?

[Willie]

Not to be negative but it`s apparent that a lot of you don`t even know what the true wording of "Bluegrass" really is or means...everyone to his kind of music and this is a subject that will never get settled....To me bluegrass is simple and doesn`t need to be changed...I still drive a VW Beetle for the same reason....Just kidding, I`m a pick-up man myself.....Willie

[ira]

willie- i always respect your zeal in this issue, and the world needs some traditionalists. again, not calling any of this stuff bg. as a matter of fact i think folks in this thread are just expanding the concept of newgrass to include anything with some bg feel, instrumentation or root to it (not actual bg music) as a way of noting the differences between bg tinged bands and actual bg (kinda making your point to some degree). i don't think that anyone would call rre, leftover salmon, or most of the bands mentioned here as straight bg groups.

peace and happy pickin willie,may your chop chords always be powerful and in rythm.
ira
ps- i definitely picture you as a pickup kinda guy- a no bones about it, straight forward vehicle! whats in the back o that truck right now???http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[zeke]

Oh, did you think we were discussing bluegrass here, Willie? I thought we were looking at what this offshoot genre (some may call a red-headed step child)was, and possibly how it related to the mother tongue (BG), and how it got here.

I'm a dodge diesel truck guy my own self, have played in bands that tried to make the Monroe spirit proud, and still love to play that way (some may say the 'correct' way) when I have the opportunity. I like performing more than I like being a tradionalist, plus the sheer fun of heading out where the busses don't run, so there it is I suppose. As I mentioned in an earlier post, here in the Reno/Tahoe area and environs, a trad band can't work regularly (for whatever reason) whereas our "alt-grass/whatever" group is working all the time doing clubs, fests private events, etc., actually more than we'd like. Go figure..........

[dixiecreek]

At the last Nickel Creek concert I was at, Chris went from rapping during one song to singing an old timey bluegrass tune ocmplete with yodeling during the next. I love it when people try to define what kind of music Nickel Creek plays. 'Cause you can't. Hehe.

[mandopete]

Hi Folks, let's not get into the "what is bluegrass" thang - I just want to focus on the term "Newgrass". #I did notice that Scott references this genre in the message board section titled "Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants, so I'm curious as to what people think Newgrass is and what recordings represent that style.

Dixiecreek - I think you have hit on a key point to this Newgrass discussion. #It's a melding of styles like jazz and rock into a bluegrass base. #I like the fact that Chris Thile feels comfortable enough in his musicianship to include these elements and as Ira said, I think John and Sam would want it that way.

Kebmando - I think I would prefer the term "Popgrass" to "Bubblegrass" to describe the melding of a pop style into bluegrass. #I think this might describe bands such as AKUS and Mountain Heart. #I think these are people that record industry tries to clasiify as "crossover" artists. #I dont know, I need to think about that one.

I don't like the term "bubblegrass" and don't think the the logic used to select that name is valid. #Of course, I'm thinking that this term is a derivation of "bubblegum pop". #Bubble gum applied to a musical form tends to imply a form that appeals to immature tastes - pop/top 40 isn't sufficient to qualify for the bubblegum adjective.

I've read back over this thread and I don't see any evidence that the participants don't know what bluegrass is. #Other than one joking comment, no one even tried to define BG.

to me the original Newgrass was the Aeroplane band.. to me they started it all. Hartford, Tut, Blake, Vassar, those were the guys and that kind of music to me was NEWGRASS..

I love that music... If I were to start a band today. I think that is the direction I would go. Not many people doing that style.. Note: that I do not consider Nickel Creek Newgrass.. Thats just plain POPgrass..

[dixiecreek]

Dixiecreek - I think you have hit on a key point to this Newgrass discussion. #It's a melding of styles like jazz and rock into a bluegrass base. #I like the fact that Chris Thile feels comfortable enough in his musicianship to include these elements and as Ira said, I think John and Sam would want it that way.
Yeah, totally, that's what I like so much about NC's music is that it's such a unique mix of all the different styles that they enjoy and are influenced by. I know that most bluegrass purists don't consider them bluegrass at all, but that's the music they started out playing and it's definitely the genre that is at the heart of their music, eclectic as it is. And even though they're not a traditional bluegrass band, their music was what got me into playing mando and into checking out more traditional bluegrass music as well. That's one of the cool things about that band, is their ability to draw a younger crowd into a genre of music that doesn't typically attract a young audience. Gosh I just luv Nickel Creek music. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[cam]

While it's interesting to try and classify different types of music, I don't see the point of trying to pigeonhole a band like Nickel Creek, or any other great music for that matter. Sometimes I wonder if the less musical you are, the more the need to classify and defend the so called purity of musical styles. Most exceptional musicians are too busy exploring the making of music to worry about labels. I don't know what to call Nickel Creek, but I love them and I sure know where they're coming from.

[mandopete]

Should we try to define "Gospel Variants" # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Back to the original idea of this thread, I'm really looking for good examples of what people think this term might mean. #I went back and looked the release date for Aereo Plain and it was released in 1971. #This got me to thinking about when this Newgrass genre got started. #I was also thinking about the David Grisman Qunitet album which was released six years later. #The first Newgrass Revival recording (called The Arrival Of Newgrass Revival oddly enough) came out in 1972.

Now there are more tradional Bluegrass bands that were dabbling with rock and folk music such as the Country Gentlemen and Flatt & Scruggs, could this be the beginning of Newgrass? #One recording that popped into my mind was Beatle Country by the Charles River Boys, which came out in 1966.

The other thing to consider is who are the top groups performing today that people would think of as Newgrass? #Seems like I keep hearing Yonder Mountain String Band and String Cheese Incident, are the others?

[ira]

i still go with the idea that newgrass is about experimentation, and putting too firm a label and definition down and creating offshoot categories takes away the idea of expanding traditional into non-traditional music and therefor say that jamgrass, popgrass, etc... is unnecessary- nickel creek, railroad earth, leftover salmon, etc... would all be newgrass to me. the crossing of genre is what its all about with some bg elements- sambush has continued to stretch that envelope as has bela, peter rowan, etc...

just my 2

[mandopete]

Ira - I think you are right, it is about experimentation. #Where traditional Bluegrass focuses on maintaining a style, Newgrass seems to want to move beyond that boundary. #Are there any boundries to Newgrass? #I think the instrumention should be primarily acoustic instruments with the inclusion of most or all of the traditional bluegrass orchestra (banjo, fiddle, bass, guitar & mandolin). #

Without some sort of definition how would we know Newgrass from Punk Rock or Be-Bop? #There have to be certain elements that must be present. #Another recording that I am surprised has not surfaced in the context of this thred is Short Trip Home. #Has anyone heard this one and where might this fall?

[LeftCoastMark]

I, for one, don't want to be pigeonholed. I love bluegrass, traditional fiddle styles, and newgrass. But when I conceive a song or song arrangement, I don't think about a genre. I do think about making high-quality music, and about stirring people's hearts, feet, and souls (and soles).

I doubt those Nickel Creek folks care about being pigeon-holed. They're following a musical muse, and creating music.

Genres seem to me to be a fence on the wide open spaces of the imagination.

I play in a stringband. Nuff' said.

[Garrett]

John Hartford is called the father of Newgrass because what became the first version of Newgrass Revival was Hartford's second Aeroplane band with the great Courtney Johnson instead of John Hartford on banjo.

[Peter Hackman]

Hi Folks, let's not get into the "what is bluegrass" thang - I just want to focus on the term "Newgrass". I did notice that Scott references this genre in the message board section titled "Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants, so I'm curious as to what people think Newgrass is and what recordings represent that style.
Not that I care much about labels, but I would say
Newgrass refers to, or used to refer to, anything
with bluegrass instrumentation, a bluegrass beat,
head arrangements, duo and trio singing with
equal emphasis on all parts, but using songs
removed from traditional and country sounds -
no modal inflections, more chords, etc.
That would include Roger Sprungs' "Progressive bluegrass"
from the 60's, much of the classical Country Gentlemen
and early Seldom Scene, Emerson-Waldron (Fox on the Run,
If I were a Carpenter), Bluegrass Alliance, etc.

Today the acoustic scene
has branched out so much as to render most labels
useless, which I think is a very healthy development.

[mandopete]

Peter- thanks for your insight and references to some of the earlier bluegrass bands that dabbled into Newgrass. #I am curious as to why you think the breakdown of genres in acoustic music is a "healthy development".

I reason I ask is that I feel that Newgrass is also a way to bring a younger audience into the Bluegrass. #I think the inclusion of more popular songs from country, folk and rock music may have made the genre more accessable to a younger audience. #For me, that's how I got here. #The trick to get the newer listeners to make the journey back in time to discover the roots. #This has been the best part of journey (for me anyways).

Without some kind of labeling it's difficult to attract an audience outside of those who already know what it is. #I think this Newgrass label can be used to describe a pretty broad range of music that does not fit into the "traditional" bluegrass definition.

[Christopher Howard-Williams]

Peter, I just read through this thread for the first time and your post just about sums up what I would say.
Bluegrass respects the original form (as described by Willie), Newgrass is songs from other genres played with the Bluegrass structure.
I like some Newgrass, but I particularly like it when it is played by musicians who can play good, traditional Bluegrass.
Sam Bush, Bela Flek, Chris Thile, Tony Rice and many more can all play great traditional Bluegrass and I think they get more "feeling" into the rest of their music.
Is there a link? I think so.

[Peter Hackman]

Peter- thanks for your insight and references to some of the earlier bluegrass bands that dabbled into Newgrass. I am curious as to why you think the breakdown of genres in acoustic music is a "healthy development".

I reason I ask is that I feel that Newgrass is also a way to bring a younger audience into the Bluegrass. I think the inclusion of more popular songs from country, folk and rock music may have made the genre more accessable to a younger audience. For me, that's how I got here. The trick to get the newer listeners to make the journey back in time to discover the roots. This has been the best part of journey (for me anyways).

Without some kind of labeling it's difficult to attract an audience outside of those who already know what it is. I think this Newgrass label can be used to describe a pretty broad range of music that does not fit into the "traditional" bluegrass definition.
You're asking me to write an essay! Basically, and briefly, I think it's a healthy development because it created
lots of exciting music.

What happened in
the 60's and 70's was the absorption of material
from other genres and that goes even further back,
to Don Reno and Red Smiley, instrumental stuff
like Limehouse Blues and Little Rock Getaway,
although their vocal pieces had a distinct
BG or country flavor.

One landmark recording is the Country Gents'
version of The World is Waiting for the Sunrise
where they kept the changes and discarded the
melody altogether. Yet some of these efforts
made you wonder, if they want to play jazz or rock or
whatever, why not take the full step? Sometimes
the limitiations of BG instrumentation were
all too clear.

The most important trend in new acoustic music
in recent years is the influence of classical music,
with dynamics and varying density of polyphony
creating form and direction. You mentioned Short
Trip Home. You could have listed just about anything
by Edgar Meyer.

The most recent and most exciting
recording in recent years is Mark O'Connor's
30 year Perspective.

Frankly, traditional BG is to me a thing of the past.
I enjoy playing traditional fiddle tunes and listening to
guys like Monroe, but my main interests lie elsewhere.

[mandopete]

Peter - thanks for the (brief) essay. #I think these are good points and so far you're the only person to point to something that occurred before the times of John Hartford/Newgrass Revival.

I think the experimentations of people like the Country Gentlemen really "paved the way" for people that came later and wanted to bring disparate elements into bluegrass.

I also agree with Xtopher about hearing really good traditional bluegrass pickers pickers delve into this area. #That to me is the basis of the grass in Newgrass and what is probably the single most important element. #I mean if Pat Metheny were to take up the mandolin, I don't think anyone would call it Newgrass, eh?

[ira]

depends what pat wanted to play.