Mandocello builders: f vs. round holes

[Tim F Thornton]

I almost want to apologize--but not quite. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I know this question is so subjective and depends on so many factors.

I'm gearing up to order a new custom mandocello from Weber (my fist 'cello!) and am decided on an a-style archtop instrument. Just wondering if anyone has any generalizations or experiences that would help me decide between f-holes or a soundhole.

In mandolin, I love f-holes. To my ear they produce a "rounder" tone. More complex maybe, like a droplet of water, where I hear a round hole as more "twangy" although that word is much too strong for what I actually hear.

So I'm leaning toward f holes, but have never had an instrument in this low of a frequency range and don't know how that might change things (would complex become muddy?). I don't expect to get a chance to play one with f-holes personally (they're rare on Southern Colorado).

I have another thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=16;t=52892;) on this topic where someone suggested I visit this part of the board, just in case anyone wants to hear other thoughts. I learned a lot about guitar-bodied 'cellos with f-holes, but few have experience with a-style and f-holes.

Thanks. I think this discussion is very interesting, even if highly personal in terminology! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Gail Hester]

Since you are not getting any replies I'll throw in my 2 cents. It's personnel preference to which characteristic sound you want. I'm planning a couple cellos but they will be F-style with "F" holes. I think an oval hole cello will saturate an area around you but I like F-holes for the increased focus and projection as in a cello in an orchestra or ensemble. Either way would work fine on your A-style mandocello but I recommend tailoring the characteristic sound from one or the other based on your intended use of the instrument. Keep us posted on what you decide.

[arrowmandolin]

So very,very many factors involved here.....honestly i feel that the register of a cello deserves and almost requires the larger "K5" or comperable guitar body.I've had the good fortune to play and measure about 30 different instruments,many of the "Holy Grail" ones, though I'm not familiar with Weber's "A" shape.
F shaped aperatures are very well suited to a larger guitar body, my personal experience[and I will always have a control instrument in any batch that I'm testing a theory]is that the oval aperature is more effective in the smaller/non waisted octave mandolin/cellos that I have built.[about 15] but more important is the SIZE of the sound hole, be very wary of too large a sound hole, either F's, oval,round or whatever.
Too large an aperature bleeds off the magic Bass response that we're after with this instruments voicng.
The"Holy Grail" 20's instruments, both L-5 guitars and K-5
cellos have Tiny sound holes,in 16" bodies.
By the way, if you measure the proportion of body size to aperature in the better sounding"K1"instruments they tend to be a bit smaller.
The tonewoods involved with relative body shape is also very important. My theory- smaller body size needs more sustain,mahogany neck really helps out here.Larger body, works great in maple.
Last and not least, scale length is important.Remember a true cello's scale length is 27",for that voicing,longer will always be better here.
All the best!
Paul Lestock
Arrow Guitar&Major Fifth instruments

[Michael Lewis]

Paul, nicely put, and I'm glad to see you posting here. I hope to see more from you.

One point to consider is how the instrument feels when you play it. If you play standing up with the instrument on a strap just about any body shape will be fine, but if you play sitting down a guitar shaped body is generally more comfortable. "A" and "F" style bodies are less comfortable to hold without a strap. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Tim F Thornton]

Thanks, all for chiming in.

Gail, thanks for being the first! I've been admiring your work through photos here for a while. Do you think you would dare to explain what you mean by "focus and projection"? I'm just making up terms here, but reading your description, I'm picturing an oval hole sending a wider "beam of sound" and an f-hole instrument a narrower one. Do you mean to say that the f-hole may also be louder as well? And would focus indicate less overtones? I could see how that would be an advantage in a mandocello. I don't mean to put words in your mouth or to try to nail you to any opinions you aren't ready to commit to. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Just trying to learn the meaning of some terms. I'll be using the instrument for small house concerts, recording, and sometimes plugged-in onstage. Not really for an orchestra setting. What configuration would that suggest in your mind?

Paul, that would offer an explanation as to why there don't seem to be as many f-hole a-style instruments. I'll be getting a mahogany neck for sure. Very interesting and thanks!

Michael, that's a good thought. I use a strap even when I sit, so it's alright for me.

Don't feel too much pressure anyone! I wont decide solely on your words--I'm headed out this weekend and will maybe encounter some instruments to play which can help me decide.

Best,
Tim (the gnome)

[Gail Hester]

"Gail, thanks for being the first!"

You're welcome. Sometimes it takes a reply to get things going and get a response from someone that has experience (really knows what they are talking about), thanks Paul Lestock.

Focus, projection and volume are usually atributed to F-hole instruments in a general way and agree with that generally. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I will be building F-hole mandocellos initially because the customers have requested they cut through acoustically (un-miked).

Here's one that is "Miked" Watch this video of Mike Marshall playing and taling about his Monteleone mandocello. A fine sounding instrument with an oval hole.

http://www.tothestage.com/MediaDetail.Page?MediaId=351

[Bill Snyder]

Gail that is a great video. Mr. Marshall is a hoot.

[Tim F Thornton]

Well, I decided and ordered. In a few months when the instrument is done I'll post pictures. It will be customized in some cool ways. Thanks again everyone! I think I'll load up that Mike Marshall video again. Amazing.

[man dough nollij]

Hey Mandognome,

How do you like your Bridger Octave? I ordered a custom one about two months ago, and I can't wait to get mine. I've played a Gallatin, a Hyalite, and a Sage OM, but never a Bridger. I've played Bridger F and A style mandos, though, and I love the sound. I would characterize it as being louder and more complex than a typical round-hole, but more resonant and sustaining than a typical f-hole. Does that match your experience? I know comparing mandos and OMs isn't really a fair comparison-- I've just never seen a Bridger OM in person.

[Red Henry]

As far as f-hole MC's go, I've been playing my Randy Wood for a few years now (identical to the one shown on his site at http://www.randywoodguitars.com/mandocello_gallery.htm ), and it has excellent tone, balance, and projection. In fact (says the proud owner) I like it much more than any other MC I have played, including a very fine Gilchrist MC of my acquaintance.

To my ears, the differences in sound between oval-hole and f-hole MC's are not as striking as in mandolins and mandolas. I think that the primary determinant of sound in an MC is the workmanship involved, and that if you want a great sound you can get it either way.

A good MC is a lot of fun to have in the house. I have performed with this MC and have also recorded with it, leading a couple of tracks with it ("High on a Mountain" and "Divers and Lazarus") on my recent Helton Creek CD. (Snatches of both numbers can be heard at http://cdbaby.com/cd/redhenry .)

Naturally, this MC has had a maple bridge on it for some time now (and my friend's Gil does too, for that matter)-- these bridges significantly improved both instruments.

By the way, Randy's MC's (and Gilchrist's, as well) are made more strictly to an F-5 shape than the Gibson MC's were. Since the difference in shape was fairly minor, however, this may or may not have had an effect on the tone.

Red




.

[Tim F Thornton]

Hey Mandognome,

How do you like your Bridger Octave? I ordered a custom one about two months ago, and I can't wait to get mine. I've played a Gallatin, a Hyalite, and a Sage OM, but never a Bridger. I've played Bridger F and A style mandos, though, and I love the sound. I would characterize it as being louder and more complex than a typical round-hole, but more resonant and sustaining than a typical f-hole. Does that match your experience? I know comparing mandos and OMs isn't really a fair comparison-- I've just never seen a Bridger OM in person.
I have loved my Bridger OM. I say "have" because I just sold it to fund my mandocello! I know, getting rid of instruments is bad policy but I don't have the dollars to work on completing my mandolin family--I have to choose a couple of workhorses, and I really wanted to get into the lower register of the 'cello.

All of the words you used to describe the bridger are true--loud, complex, resonant, sustaining. Especially sustain. The tone on mine was positively overwhelming sometimes, especially with new strings. You will not be disappointed.

I played mine on a ton of live gigs. It worked great for GDAD and GDAE. I used it for a lot of auxiliary parts in recordings, and wrote a good number of songs on it. I'm getting wistful here, but the custom hyalite mandocello I have coming will ease my pain.

I keep telling myself if I ever get rich I'll track down all the instruments I sold out of need for funds (and maybe a bit of a bent toward simplicity) and have a big collection.

Time to change my signature. Maybe I'll get an avatar while I'm at it.

[man dough nollij]

Glad to hear you liked your OM. The MC will be sweet as well, no doubt. I ordered mine in the Scarlet Fire gloss, which I'm hopeful will look like this: http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/webyellgtr31.jpg

[Tim F Thornton]

That makes an impression!