Tuners are crumbling

[Pen]

I have a 1958 Gibson A-40 mando that a close friend (who doesn't play) has loaned me. He likely won't ask for it back for a couple years - so I'll be playing it a bunch. It's my favorite mando I've ever played worth under $10k.

Here's my issue. The mando is (as far as I can tell) original. The case it has been kept in for as long as my buddy remembers is "tight" around the headstock. So, everytime it goes in and out of it's case, it rubs the tuners. Now they are starting to crumble (the part that your fingures touch when you tune them).

My friend isn't going to invest any money in an instrument he doesn't play. And I don't want to drop coin on something I don't own. Is there a way to harden the tuner to keep it usable? Maybe a solution I can soak it in - or maybe something I can brush on it to stabilize it?

Other than the tuners, the instrument is very sound and I play it often. I'd hate to shelve the instrument becouse the tuners finally crapped out on me.

On a side note - his dad bought it and played it for years before passing it down to his son (an exceptional guitar player). His dads fingures no longer allow him to play. Knowing my addiction (and with his fathers blessing), he lent it to me - long term. Both prefered the instrument be used instead of sitting in a closet. Isn't that cool?!

[mandroid]

They do that .. the plastics used then aged in that way, I had an A40 , did same thing, only difference is, now replacement buttons are
commonly available to super-glue on in their place..

take them off the instrument then strip them down to the shaft, the grained Ivoroid buttons would look good on that mandolin.

[MikeEdgerton]

Kluson used a bad batch of plastic on tuner buttons made during the late 40's and 50's. It's one way you can date certain instruments that didn't have serial numbers. Here (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Tuners/NewButton/newbutton.html) is an article on Frank Ford's frets.com (http://www.frets.com) that discusses the problem and also shows how to replace the buttons. One of the problems you'll have replacing the buttons is that they sell plastic guitar buttons that work just fine but it's harder to find the right mandolin buttons to do the repair. The easier solution is to buy a set of Kluson tuners from a later model. The good news is that Gibson, Martin, and Kay all used the same tuners. You can watch eBay for an inexpensive kay with good tuners or you can put an ad in the wanted section of the classifieds and see if someone pops up with a set.

[Jim Garber]

"Tuners are crumbling, Anyway to save them?"

I doubt they an be saved esp if they are actually crumbling. Maybe Paul Hostetter has a fix but I would think that at this point it may be a lost cause. Certianly keep the tuners and replace the buttons as Mike and Mandroid suggest. I don't know if I would put that rubber goop on the tuners -- could ruin them forever.

I have a few instruments with disintegrating tuner buttons. My 50s big old Gibson flattop has them shrunken and I have replacements when they finally bite the dust.

[Michael Lewis]

Don't be so cheap, replace the buttons. Stew/Mac has some good ones. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Mr. Loar]

The tuners on my Vega banjo did that and I replaced them with tuners from Stewmac. Good investment!

[Jim Garber]

Don't be so cheap, replace the buttons. Stew/Mac has some good ones. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif
To make it even easier: Vintage-style Replacement Tuner Knobs (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Tuner_parts/Vintage-style_Replacement_Tuner_Knobs.html).

[Jonmiller]

Hey cheapskate, let me play it for a couple years, I'll replace the tuners.!!!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[BlueMountain]

If this is the kind of tuner knob without screws, then you might be able to stabilize the knobs for a few years by dripping THIN (not regular) Cyano-acrylate glue (super glue, but THIN) onto each knob and letting it wick in until it won't take any more. (On the other hand, it may get so hot that it bursts into flame if it's celluloid. When lots of CA starts reacting, it gets hot in there.)

Frankly, though, I was dismayed by your saying you don't want to put any money into this. It seems a long way from gracious. Given that it's a very nice mandolin, and prized, I think the right thing to do would be to take it to a good luthier and have new vintage knobs put on. (After asking the owner.) If you don't, you could end up doing hundreds of dollars in damage to the mandolin.

[Paul Hostetter]

The trouble with the knobs Stew-Mac sells is that they're made for guitar and they're considerably larger than the original mandolin buttons. Mandolin tuner posts are closer together than guitar tuners, so these knobs are inconveniently close to one another. They work, but it's a compromise.

http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/1lg/0112/Vintage-style_Tuner_Knobs_Detail.jpg

I haven't tried it, but these exist on the market for about $20:

http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/1lg/0759/Economy_A-style_Mandolin_Tuners_Detail.jpg

You could buy them just to salvage the buttons, which are the only small white buttons I know of. These are Pings, the Gotoh equivalent machines run around $60!

My suggestion, if you want to spiff it up to original specs, is to haunt eBay for a good set. I just snagged a really nice set for $18 + P&P about a week ago. I just looked, Kluson still doesn't have repro mandolin gears available.

[theBlood]

I tried to install some of those stewmac vintage nobs on a set of schallers but the holes need to be widened quite a bit and with my limited skills they kept chipping when I tried to drill them wider. Any ideas?

[Paul Hostetter]

If you warm up that plastic just right, it goes limp and you can press the buttons on pretty easy. The trick then is to squish them all on the same distance. If you were really doing Schallers, they're meant to glue onto a round shaft without the flats, in which case you use a numbered bit a hair down from the shaft size (near 1/8" I think) and glue it on with CA really quickly.

[bradeinhorn]

.... The easier solution is to buy a set of Kluson tuners from a later model. The good news is that Gibson, Martin, and Kay all used the same tuners. You can watch eBay for an inexpensive kay with good tuners or you can put an ad in the wanted section of the classifieds and see if someone pops up with a set.
mike is part right here.

you can't just use any old set of klusons. i attempted this on a jethro style a-5 recently and though they looked very similar, the tuners did not line up right. bob jones, who did the repair, said that this is often the case. in the end, we went with some buttons similar to the stewmac replacements. not quite right, but fully functional and fairly easy to age and install.

b

[bradeinhorn]

pic:

[MikeEdgerton]

Kay and Harmony didn't use F style tuners. I've never seen a set of A's that didn't line up but I do have an eraser on my pencil and have been known to make mistakes.

[Paul Hostetter]

I like the ivoroid buttons on Brad's Klusons, above. The button size is correct and the look is good enough.

John Y, I just noticed you asked about drilling the Stew-Mac vintage buttons (which I guess are the same as on the F-headstock in Brad's photo), and I think all you really need is a drill press and a table vise to hold the buttons while you drill. Stew-Mac sells a 10mm bit for adapting their buttons to Schallers which, after drilling, you can slip on and epoxy. If you're having trouble with chipping (their ivoroid is casein plastic, quite different than celluloid or polyester) it's probably because of drilling technique. Widening a small hole can be tricky if the bit's not sharp and everything is not held tight.

[theBlood]

...John Y, I just noticed you asked about drilling the Stew-Mac vintage buttons (which I guess are the same as on the F-headstock in Brad's photo), and I think all you really need is a drill press and a table vise to hold the buttons while you drill. Stew-Mac sells a 10mm bit for adapting their buttons to Schallers which, after drilling, you can slip on and epoxy. If you're having trouble with chipping (their ivoroid is casein plastic, quite different than celluloid or polyester) it's probably because of drilling technique. Widening a small hole can be tricky if the bit's not sharp and everything is not held tight.[/quote]

Your advice is right on, thanks Paul. I have a friend with a drill press and will proceed with your suggestions.

[Mike Blohm]

I have fit the Waverly replacement buttons sold by Stewart MacDonald. I had to file a bit off the fins on the shaft so it would fit it into the corners of the square hole. Then epoxy or thick superglue it on. You have to fill the screw hole in the button. With a faux screw head or maybe one of the cubic zirconias from the ring your old girlfriend threw back at you. Turned out to be a pretty good fit.

[Paul Hostetter]

Stew-Mac sells that same button without the hole for the screw. But setting rhinestones might be a nice touch.