Old timey style?

[Bitterroot]

I've gone to several bluegrass jams and yesterday was my first old timey jam. I was having a fun time picking up on the chord progressions quickly to songs I never heard of before and working through some melodies. Today I was told by a fellow mandolin player that I was playing "frowned upon" style. I was playing bluegrass chops to the songs. We played several fiddle tunes I was familiar with and I had only ever chopped the chord progressions if not doing the melody. I was told I was suppose to be playing it like a guitar struming two finger chords. I would imagine if this is correct then doing a tremelo there would be absolute taboo. Is this true or myth?

[mandolirius]

<I was told I was suppose to be playing it like a guitar struming two finger chords. I would imagine if this is correct then doing a tremelo there would be absolute taboo. Is this true or myth?>

Both, actually. It's true to a certain extent and what that means to me is that chopping chords doesn't compliment the style that well. For one thing, there are lots of irregular chord changes in old-time, that occur on half beats, or bars with odd numbers of beats. But it's also myth in the sense that it's not true that chop chords, tremolo or other standard techniques don't ever work or are never appropriate.

Lately I've immersed myself in old-time music. I go to lots of jams and sessions, with some really excellent old-time musicians. I've been wondering what my place (as a mandolin player) should be. I know a few tunes and will offer one up when the fiddlers run out of ideas. But I don't play along with the fiddles on melodies because the mandolin can't do all those wierd quarter tones or the bow shuffle. For the most part, I try to do what the banjo players do. That does involve a lot of two-finger, or doublestop positions. But the key to blending in is in the rhythm. I've found I need to play totally free-wristed and play a mix of doublestops and counter melodies.

So that's my best advice to you - learn a few tunes well enough that you can lead and keep them in your pocket, to be pulled out if necessary. Aside from that, try to sit near a good banjo player and pay close attention to what he or she does.

[jim_n_virginia]

Yeah when I first started going to the Old Time Jams I was strictly a bluegrass player and I would pick the tunes I knew and chop on the tunes I didn't. They were a nice bunch so it was real subtle but I soon got the picture that TOO much chopping was a no no. A little was alright and on many Old Time tunes it sounds good.

But I now play melodically when a tune is played or sung I don't know. It has turned out to be good practice for me to try different methods or styles of rhythm. I also crosspick or anything I can do to add to the whole sound which is the main difference between Old Time and Bluegrass as you probably already know, everyone plays together in Old Timey.

[Jean Fugal]

I may have been at that jam. You have some signatures on the back of your ax?

In any case, keep coming back,try to fit in best you can, and if you see some eyebrows raised just do less of what you are doing and more of something that maybe fits better. Just as in bluegrass there are many "right" ways and many jams that are fun to be around and many that are just plain stuffy.

Thats what I say anyway. Music is too important to be left to professionals.

jpf

[Jim Garber]

I have been playing old time music for over 30 years and I don;t recall any hard and fast rules for mandolin players -- or, at least, have not seen the rule book http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The best you can do with any jam is to listen carefully and try to fit in. I would think that soft chopping would be fine in most cases tho playing fortissimo chops might make many musicians cringe. In more modern style of OT music the groove is of utmost importance and well as blending in to the mix.

Listen... and ask some of the players what they think.

BTW the mandolin generally has been in a minor role in OT music in the relaly old days. As a matter of fact, guitar wasn;t even used all that much, no bass. OT music has certainly evolved over the years and, who knows -- I may not even fit in any more.

[ALog]

How about an example of "old-timey" music? I've never been one for classifications.

[Don Christy]

There are some great past threads on this topic. Check some out:

Here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=47097;hl=old+and+time+ and+chord)

Here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=48607)

Here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=19103)

Here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=52268)

Good luck,
Don

[lgc]

There are about a bazillion styles of old time, from rags to ballads to fiddle tunes to modal banjo tunes. Mandolin is played differently in every recoding that it is present. Play what is fun for you. If someone is saying that "that is not the right way to play OT" then they have a limited view of the term and you shouldn't allow yourself to be hobbled because of it. Was there much singing at the jam?

[Don Christy]

There are about a bazillion styles of old time, from rags to ballads to fiddle tunes to modal banjo tunes. #Mandolin is played differently in every recoding that it is present. # Play what is fun for you. #If someone is saying that "that is not the right way to play OT" then they have a limited view of the term and you shouldn't allow yourself to be hobbled because of it. #Was there much singing at the jam?
Sure that's true, but IMO you hobble yourself even more if you go to a jam and just wail away playing whatever is fun for you without listening and trying to create something that works with what the other musicians are doing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif One of the keys to any style of music is figuring out how to contribute something that fits in well with what's going on. There are plenty of threads on the differences between OT and BG, and you don't have to agree on what those particulars are to admit that each requires a different approach.

YMMV
Don

[lgc]

I agree, however, OT is supposed to be a fun and loose. If the OP was playing chop chords because that's what he/she felt worked at the time then it may very well have been appropriate. I've been to a lot of OT jams that were not made better by people playing it the "right" way and were enforced by people making comments like those made to the OP. Even if the OP's rhythm choices were not ideal, chances are he/she would have moved in the right direction. There are no rules in OT.

[Ken Berner]

Would those old-time regulars here, recommend picking pentatonic scales when playing an unfamiliar tune? I am planning a trip to Florida and will be sitting in on some old-time music jams. I would like to fit in as best I can.

[Don Christy]

I agree, however, OT is supposed to be a fun and loose. #If the OP was playing chop chords because that's what he/she felt worked at the time then it may very well have been appropriate. #I've been to a lot of OT jams that were not made better by people playing it the "right" way and were enforced by people making comments like those made to the OP. #Even if the OP's rhythm choices were not ideal, chances are he/she would have moved in the right direction. #There are no rules in OT.
lgc, again i agree with you generally. OT should definitely be fun and loose. It sounds like bitteroot had a great time.

And I want to start with I don't know bitteroot so this may not be accurate.

BUT (you knew it was coming http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ) ... it's completely possible (dare I say likely) that bitteroot was doing what he knew rather than what "he felt worked." I know when I first went to an OT jam, I didn't have a clue and did what I knew. I appreciated some of the (very friendly) regulars making (very friendly) recommendations.

Even though I'm by no means an expert in any of this, I've developed my own "playing voice." And interestingly enough, it's different for OT and BG. It's still my voice, but different styles of playing.

You are probably right, there are no rules in OT. But's there's something there - and you have to listen to pick it up.

Again YMMV,
Don

[Don Christy]

Would those old-time regulars here, recommend picking pentatonic scales when playing an unfamiliar tune? I am planning a trip to Florida and will be sitting in on some old-time music jams. I would like to fit in as best I can.
If you are sitting in on OT jams that you are not familiar with, I probably woundn't try using pentatonic scales.

This is all my opinion, YMMV, so please take it for what it's worth. But, here's how I would approach it.

For an unfamiliar tune, if the chords are not called up front (probably won't be), I would just sit and listen for a round or two and make sure I have the chords down. Learn to watch the guitarist is there is one. Other players will really appreciate you not floundering trying to pick out the chords.

Once you have the chords down, start playing rhythm with mostly open chords (two finger). Pay close atten to the rhythm of the tune, especially as played by the lead instrument (likely a fiddler).

While you're listening and watching the fiddler and playing the rhythm, really let the tune sink in. Get it in your mind. Good thing about OT is that the tune will often go on for a long time and will often have a fairly simple melody.

Watch the fiddler's left hand. Listen for double stops, etc.

If you have a pretty good ear, try to play the melody once it's in your head. You could also play some counter melody, but I wouldn't recommend playing a harmony part.

So much of music is captured by the rhytmic content of the song. Focusing in on really capturing that can be a lot of fun on the mandolin even if you never play the melody.

And as lgc will undoubtably say - HAVE FUN.

Don

[hoffmannia2k7]

dissent is the higest form of patriotism - thomas "the rock" jefferson.

this talk wants me to lay down my mandolin.

I find in music, we must trust people to do what they feel sounds right and that their opinion of what is right should be trusted and if what they feel is right is harsh sounding to others their jam phone will not be ringing often. It is a good thing jams are open and people can come and do what they want.

Bitteroot, chop away and tremelo all you want.

Tremelo, imo, sounds great at ot jams.

[Joe F]

I attend three old-time jams a week, and more often than not, I'm the only mandolin player. #For the most part, I tend to alternate between picking the melody and playing open chords. #For tunes where someone is singing (e.g. "Bully of the Town", "Camp Meeting in July"), I'll play gentle chop chords that aren't very percussive. #And on slow waltzes, I'll throw in some tremolo from time to time.

In the three years that I've been going to old-time jams regularly, I've gotten to the point where I can pick up new tunes by ear fairly quickly. #I don't think I've looked at any tablature in over a year.

[mandolirius]

<If the OP was playing chop chords because that's what he/she felt worked at the time then it may very well have been appropriate.>

I didn't get that sense from the OP. He said it was his first old-time jam, so I assume he was playing what he knew, as opposed to what he felt "worked".

[Gary S]

An interesting recording John Hartford's "Speed of the Long Bow" is a great example of some of many different ways of playing old time music. The musicians play very freely and switch often their approches toward a tune and what the other players are doing.
I would think that a 2 and 4 chop could fill a nice spot in any style of music...Gary

[earthsave]

Instead of chopping the chords, just let the chords ring a bit and play open style chords when not playing the melody.

[JeffD]

I have been playing old time music for over 30 years and I don;t recall any hard and fast rules for mandolin players -- or, at least, have not seen the rule book http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The best you can do with any jam is to listen carefully and try to fit in.
That really nails it, I can't agree more.

I have been playing old time, southern and northern for almost as many years, and have a lot more experience with it than with BG. So for me its the BG jam where I have to stop and think, OK what is appropriate here.

Do A LOT of listening.

I know I am going to get shot for this, but here goes, while it is always a good idea in all kinds of music to know and be able to play the melody, it seems it is more so in old time. The improv, if any, is much closer to the melody. And a note for note rendition of the melody that is sweet and sincere will get as much adulation as the wildest improv in BG.

[JeffD]

How about an example of "old-timey" music? #I've never been one for classifications.
For so called "northern" old time I submit the following great album:

[JeffD]

How about an example of "old-timey" music? #I've never been one for classifications.
For so called "southern" old time music I submit the following:

[allenhopkins]

[1] #Off-beat "chop" chords on the mandolin are a style specifically developed in bluegrass, even more specifically by Bill Monroe, and probably related to the need to maintain a rigorous beat at very fast tempos, the "sock" rhythm guitar playing of western swing guitarists (related to the "comping" of arch-top jazz guitarists), and a desire to balance the on-beat bass and rhythm guitar "boom" in the bluegrass band.

[2] #"Old-timey" is a huge, broad definition. #Mandolin had a very definite role in backing vocals, especially in the "brother duets," where a tremolo was very welcome as a "third harmony" voice. #The old string bands welcomed all kinds of instruments, from Autoharps to pianos to banjo-ukuleles to harmonicas. #Gid Tanner's Skillet Lickers sometimes featured Ted Hawkins on mandolin (Tanner's Rag and Tanner's (Ricketts') Hornpipe); the Three Stripped Gears had, I believe, a banjo-mandolin, and the Dallas String Band did too. #But when people speak of "old-timey" now, they're usually referring to fiddle-lead dance tunes, and the fiddle-frailed/clawhammer banjo-guitar lineup has become almost as de rigeur and restrictive as the standard bluegrass lineup, in some jam situations.

[3] #In this more limited "old-timey" context, mandolin fits in best when it sounds least "bluegrass." #Many old-timey musicians are self-consciously and defiantly non-bluegrass, even anti-bluegrass. #They don't want to sound like the the early Blue Grass Boys, or like the identifiably pre-bluegrass old-timey bands (Mainer's Mountaineers, Snuffy Jenkins/Pappy Sherrill & the Hired Hands); generally they prefer the less-supercharged, more quirky and idiosyncratic fiddle band sounds. #Open chording, melodies and counter-melodies, and a "running" double-stop style will fit in better.

[4] #If you'd like to hear excellent mandolin in an old-timey band, check out Jim Watson with the Red Clay Ramblers in their recordings from the '70's and '80's. #He really knew how to make that F-2 fit right in.

[red7flag]

Very informative thread. #Allen your post was excellent. #A side note I was hanging with some old timey banjo players at the TN Banjo Institute and went to get a shower. #Came back and they were playing the same tune. #But, when asked they will swear that there are subtle changes. #I guess I am not very subtle as it sounded the same to me. #They were cool to let a bluegrasser experiment with them. #We played a number of crossover songs like Soldiers Joy, Cripple Creek and the like. I was the only grasser to cross over to the other side and I had a great time. I remember playing Foggy Mt. Breakdown on a fretless banjo. #They were happy to play along, along, along, along, along. #Just joshing, some really nice folks.
Tony

[Steve L]

#I would think that a 2 and 4 chop could fill a nice spot in any style of music...Gary
It's not uncommon for a mando players attending their first Irish Traditional session to chop on tunes. It's hard to overstate how much this is not appreciated. To people trying to play in that style, it really robs the music of a lot of the flow and subtle elements of it's character.

It's tricky because from a bluegrass players perspective, it "fits" and sounds fine but from the POV of the Irish players, it's just awful. The style is simply all wrong.

[sgarrity]

People get too hung up on "styles". It's music. Just play!
I go to bluegrass, old-time and Irish jams. I chop, I strum open chords, I tremolo single notes and double stops, I take breaks and play the melody. I've yet to have anyone complain about my playing and the first time they do will be the last time I attend that jam.

The biggest problem I see with jams of all kinds is dynamics. Don't chop at full volume all the time. There is a time for that but it is rare! Listen to what is being played and do something to compliment the music. Old-time and ITM are relatively new forms of music. So the people that harp on keeping it "traditional" really get on my nerves and I just won't play with them.

[MandoBen]

If you can't chop, does that mean you aren't allowed to clap your hands either? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Avi Ziv]

I know I am going to get shot for this, but here goes, while it is always a good idea in all kinds of music to know and be able to play the melody, it seems it is more so in old time. The improv, if any, is much closer to the melody. And a note for note rendition of the melody that is sweet and sincere will get as much adulation as the wildest improv in BG.
Jeff - I can totally relate to this notion although I don't play much Old Time music. I do primarily play Irish Traditional music in sessions and your statement would hold very true in that setting as well. I know more than a few people who play in both Irish and Old Time sessions and find the styles relatively compatible in sensibility and general approach. One reason I'm well accepted in the Irish sessions is that I never chop. By the way - Irish music does at times emphasize the downbeat but a hard chop on it it not in keeping with the tradition.

Avi

[Paul Kotapish]

As is obvious from the above comments and the earlier threads, old-time music means a lot of different things to different people--and communities.

It would be a mistake to assume that every old-time session is similar to the ones you might have already experienced. Some gatherings are more community-oriented than others, with a friendly, anything-goes atmosphere. Other gatherings might have a more specific idiom as the focus, and in that situation there might be ways of playing that are more appropriate than others.

It's a common misunderstanding that all old-time music is simply a bunch of folks all playing along in unison or accompanying in a whatever manner seems expedient. Some styles are very refined and specific, and one shouldn't assume that because the musical structure sounds relatively simple that it's easy to play the music correctly. It is true that the mandolin has had a relatively minor role in most old-time traditions, but that wouldn't necessarily preclude chopping, tremelo, or any other technique if incorporated in the right place at the right time.

Finally, keep in mind that there are vastly different levels of sophistication that fall within the general moniker of "old-time," from the relatively simple sawing of a circle of novice fiddlers to the exquisitely detailed bowing of old masters like Tommy Jarrell or Benton Flippen or young(er) masters like Bruce Molsky, Tom Sauber, or Armin Barnett.

It is all fun, but some fun is more serious than other fun, and it's always a good idea to figure out what the scene is before making any assumptions.

In every case, some time spent listening, observing, and absorbing before pulling out your axe (or hatchet) is time well spent. If I'm new at a session, I usually wait until someone invites me to play or make a suggestion before I start picking.

[Avi Ziv]

Very good advice Paul!

Thanks
Avi

[Don Christy]

Great advice Paul.

A great OT musician around here played a recording from a jam for an ensemble class I was taking. The jam had some "master level" OT players . In addition to wanting us to hear the song, he wanted us to notice something. Several of the players didn't come in immediately, but rather they listened to the tune for a minute to get the chords down and a feel for what the lead fiddle was playing. He really thought it was an indication of good and sensitive players to listen and get the vibe before joining in in this situation.

Don

[Bitterroot]

To be honest I really had no clue that chopping wasn't the norm. I got no problem playing open chords and counter melodies I think I would even enjoy that a lot. Jean my chops must have really gotten under your skin if you could pick me out from all the mandolin players that post in here...lol. I just thought old timey was everyone played the melody over and over. Hopefully I didn't ruin the jam cause I had fun...I didn't see any stink eye but it could be because I was new to the jam and they thought perhaps he won't come back. I'll do my old timey homework for the next jam. Thanks for the input cause I really didn't have a clue to play differently(and knowing is half the battle). Thanks again....root

[Jean Fugal]

>>Jean my chops must have really gotten under your skin if you could pick me out from all the mandolin players that post in here...lol. >>>

Under my skin ... LOL Not at all. I think you did great, hope to see you again.
I actually just took a wild guess about who you were. Lord Knows I'm not the most traditional Old Time guitar player. Lou and I are happy they tolerate us as the jam. Keep coming out. You won't find a better place to play (nice, open Folks) in Oregon.

[Bitterroot]

I'm sure you'll see me again for sure, and thanks for letting me cheat off your guitar throughout the jam.:D

[JeffD]

#I would think that a 2 and 4 chop could fill a nice spot in any style of music...
There really isn't anything that works everywhere. Coming from OT I remember in one of the first BG jams I ever attended, the break came round to me and assuming naturally enough that you can't go wrong just playing the tune, I played the melody. Ooops.

[JeffD]

In every case, some time spent listening, observing, and absorbing before pulling out your axe (or hatchet) is time well spent. If I'm new at a session, I usually wait until someone invites me to play or make a suggestion before I start picking.
OK I stand corrected. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif There is something that works in all genres!!

Well said.

[JGWoods]

I have been playing old time music for over 30 years and I don;t recall any hard and fast rules for mandolin players -- or, at least, have not seen the rule book http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif...

BTW the mandolin generally has been in a minor role in OT music in the relaly old days. As a matter of fact, guitar wasn;t even used all that much, no bass. OT music has certainly evolved over the years and, who knows -- I may not even fit in any more.
Jim- are you too old for Old Time Music?

I think I'm getting there myself- all the tunes seem faster than they used to be.

[Gary S]

"Jim- are you too old for Old Time Music?"

"I think I'm getting there myself- all the tunes seem faster than they used to be."

I feel the same way. I think some of us might play
"Older Time" music?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Gary

[Perry]

Hope this is ok to post; the following is from the liner notes of John Hartford's excellent "Wild Hog in the Red Bush" CD.


We developed a special kind of approach on that album that we've progressed further on this collection. Bill Evans was asking about it the other night so we've decided to include as near as we can the "recipe." It's loosely based on a big band device of changing the texture every eight bars. For lack of a better name, we call this a "window" rhythm section. We've tried to find a better name but this one won't go away. I really don't like it cause it sounds too much like computers.


Everybody has a bunch of things they can do on their instruments -you can

1) play rhythm on the down beat
2) play rhythm on the offbeat,
3) play a figure, like boogie woogie,
4) play a figure, like high or low bass runs
5) play unison lead,
6) play harmony
7) deaden your strings and play rhythm things
8) play 4/4 chromatic runs
9) play straight open chord rhythm,
10) play closed chords
11) always play just one note like the tonic
12) you can just lay out.

So every eight bars (a window) you change what you're doing or lay out (less is more). You might have five or six instruments and never more than three playing at the same time. The first window might be just the mandolin, the second window, just the banjo, the third, the mandolin doing something different and also adding the guitar.
The next window might be everyone and then for contrast, just the fiddle. If it's a tune you haven't heard before you might want to listen for a window or two before you dive in. Or you can play something with anything the first time you hear it - even if it's one note or just something chromatic. An entrance or exit should sound on purpose and not fading in or out and we are trying to make each window real different from the one before.

You can also lay out two windows (16 bars) if you need to, to change instruments or leave the stage for some reason like adjust the PA system, sell a t-shirt or kick some body's posterior.

The figure or lick does not have to be the same through the whole window as long as it works consistently as a window.

It's probably a good idea to lay out every third window anyway to keep it from getting too busy.

Generally, try and build with one, then two, then three instruments and then maybe, all of them and then lay out for pacing.

The groove is all important and should never be lost.
Also, we have followed the old time fiddle band device of letting the "off" chords - seven flat chords and minors - happen only in the melody lines, not in the rhythm section.
We also decided in recording that carefully worked out beginnings and endings hindered the energy.

[JeffD]

I just thought old timey was everyone played the melody over and over.
You say that like there is something wrong with that. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandolirius]

<Hope this is ok to post; the following is from the liner notes of John Hartford's excellent "Wild Hog in the Red Bush" CD.>

Thanks for posting that. I remember reading it years ago and thinking it was a pretty interesting idea. Then I forgot where I'd read it.

[billkilpatrick]

you all appear to have thicker skin than me ... i'm not sure how i would react if someone were to say my playing wasn't in keeping with the jam's theme.

[Paul Kotapish]

you all appear to have thicker skin than me ... i'm not sure how i would react if someone were to say my playing wasn't in keeping with the jam's theme.
Bill,

One of the hardest lessons for any musician to learn is that not everyone is going to want to play with you, no matter how well you play or what the circumstances are.

It can be heartbreaking and humbling, but it's really important to get beyond that and learn about your own strengths and weaknesses.

Equally important is to develop a sense of when it's appropriate to jump into a session or musical setting and play and when it's better to lay out and take advantage of the situation to learn by observation.

I have many dear friends who are wonderful musicians, but we don't always fit well in each other's musical worlds. There are times when I am not the right guy for the musical moment, and other times when players I really admire in their own idioms are a bad fit for what I might be trying to do.

Having tough skin is a lot less valuable than having a good sense of what's going on.

Just one guy's opinion.

PK

[Mandomax]

Well said, Paul. I think I need to put that on the inside of my case and read it before I hop in a jam.

[Benevolent Dick]

Highwoods String Band. a good listen that exemplifies (an) old-time style.

Mike S

[billkilpatrick]

fair enough ... and well said - there's an element of "going along to get along" in every group situation.

i would appreciate it if - in the instance of me opening up my case and playing my lovely mid-missouri mandolin (or whatever) along with a group of strangers - someone were to say "you're playing to loud" or "quit hogging the spotlight" ... but i'd find it very difficult to accept that my contribution - assuming that it's played well and sounds ok - was deemed to be inappropriate or "un-old-timey."

in the context of the original post, it's absurd to think that a "chop" (in a historical sense) was never ever played on a mandolin prior to bill monroe. to think so would mean that in every valley, in every county, in every state of the union ... at no time in the past ... did anyone ever attempt to did so.

this is an absurd assumption! - and in an historic sense, decidedly wobbly.

there's a huge difference between "re-enactment" and "re-creating:" the former being obsessional and (ultimately) doomed to dissatisfaction (something far less than 100% authentic) while the latter suggests a bunch of "folks" having a good time making music.

on which front porch would you or i rather be?

[red7flag]

Bill, I think of a Far Side cartoon with a banjo player rocking on with no apparent clue in front of orchetra players with looks of horror. I think when a player is respectful and in touch with a jam, most styles will work. On the other hand if a grass, I am one, pushes the grass envelop in an old timey jam, the results are not positive. I have seen an old timey banjo player run over a grass jam and was never invited back.
Tony

[billkilpatrick]

I have seen an old timey banjo player run over a grass jam and was never invited back.
yes ... this does evoke scenes of horror - consternation and gnashing of teeth ...

[cheesecutter]

This is what was actually said to the original poster of this thread. I called him expressing that we probably should reduce our chops (volume/frequency) to a lower roar and try and mix in some other techniques.

I express to him that I did some looking around on oldtime forums and sites and that the general consensus for a mandos role was to play along with the melody,strum chords much like a guitar and/or a mixture along with some lower level chops. I did this because I felt we were a bit to zealous in our playing.

This was not an attack on his playing. It was attempt to enhance our on minimal knowledge and experience with Oldtime jamming and to fit in better in that setting. Root and I know each other pretty well and are basically the only bluegrass/oldtime flunkys in our area and have to teach one other and travel abit of distance in order to participate with others in Bluegrass/Oldtime Jams.

The jam that we attended is very accommodating and a great group of people and I'm sure that they realize that we are green. We will go back to further our education and to add too the jam rather than take away from it.

So, what was originally posted is not what was necessarily said or meant but, could have been what was heard. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mark Normand]

This is a great topic, and I certainly came away with new and better ideas. Anxious to try them on our group's next practice, since we do a couple old-timeys. Thx to all who posted.

[Jim]

[QUOTE][In more modern style of OT music the groove is of utmost importance and well as blending in to the mix.]

This is very important and a great guideline for ALL music.
Peace and happy 4 20

[poymando]

My 2 cents worth.......I'd agree with Paul in that time spent listening closely to the style of music you want to play will help you make good choices as to how you can fit into a jam. I also have the opinion that the rules of conversation apply just as well to playing music of all styles.
(Be a good listener, don't shout, etc..etc..)

[JeffD]

in the context of the original post, it's absurd to think that a "chop" (in a historical sense) was never ever played on a mandolin prior to bill monroe. #
Certainly true in the logic of it. But...

A chop chord is not something obvious to do on the mandolin.

I was playing several years before someone explained chopping to me and I remember thinking, "why would someone want to do that?"

Strumming, picking, tremolo, all seem like an obvious thing to do, but deliberately preventing your strings from ringing out after the first burst of tone - playing only on the upbeat like a percussive instrument? Its real good and all within its context, but if Bill Monroe and the other founding fathers hadn't really emphasized it, I am not sure it would have gone anywhere or come about on its own.

[red7flag]

As others have said before, the time the chop started was Bill band with weak timing. It was a way Bill got every one on track. In earlier bands configurations, it was not present. Not sure of the year of first use.
Tony