Soundclips

[MikeB]

Soundclips have become increasingly popular online, mostly for luthiers and retailers, but even occasionally for individuals selling a single instrument. The ease and quality of recording plus the speed of Internet connections almost makes this almost mandatory.


Most of us are aware of the enormous range in variables here. Player style, pick type, string choice, type of recording setup...the list goes on and on. I don't really want to start a discussion of those variables here. I'm just wondering if it might be worth an attempt at standardizing, in some way, what goes into a soundclip.

Wouldn't it be somewhat useful, for instance, if people agreed to play, say, a few simple scales, on all soundclips? Or, it could be one simple tune, played slowly--at least once through--before including the fancier stuff. Perhaps some strumming or chopping of chords might be appropriate, as well.

I hope my question is clear and that this idea has merit. I'd rather be listening to, as much as possible, the acoustic qualities of an instrument than to the prowess and talent of the player.

For starters, I'd suggest a two octave G major scale, low to high, say at 120bpm, or so. Then, maybe 5 or 6 chords, strummed at 60bpm. Some bluegrass chop chords, where appropriate. Then, a few scales in the upper register, up to at least the 12th fret E string. Just an off-the-top-of- my-head suggestion.

After that, include anything else. But, I'd like to kick the tires and open the hood before testing acceleration and top speed with a professional driver on a closed course... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Santiago]

Almost more important than what you play is how you record it. Microphone placement, for example, can make a greater difference than the quality of the instrument being demonstrated.

[foldedpath]

Most of us are aware of the enormous range in variables here. Player style, pick type, string choice, type of recording setup...the list goes on and on. I don't really want to start a discussion of those variables here.

Not trying to be contentious here... but don't those variables matter? Especially the recording process, as Santiago noted. There will be different room acoustics, different mics, mic preamps, A/D converter quality, and there are a million ways you can sweeten (or destroy) the sound of the instrument during mixdown, depending on skill level and intent. I can make a cheap plywood mandolin sound MUCH better with recording tricks. I could also make a Gilchrist sound like a cheap plywood mandolin, if I wanted to. I don't know how you'd remove this variable, since everyone is using different gear with different production quality.

I don't think it does justice to the better instruments out there, when comparisons are made with that assumption that the recording process is somehow neutral and accurate. This may be the reason why not all luthiers post sound clips. It's not a level playing field... especially for those without access to high-end recording gear and skills.

[TomTyrrell]

MP3 files are heavily compressed. All of the original sound isn't there anymore. Put that together with the total lack of control over reproduction equipment and you start to understand how unreliable sound clips are when buying an instrument.

Even an A/B comparison with all things being equal can be very misleading.

[Ken Sager]

What is played is probably secondary in creating a good clip for evaluation to every other variable you list.

Besides, the ease of recording you mention probably DECREASES the reliability of the clip in its use to judge acoustic properties of a particular instrument. I think this is part of Tom's point above, too.

Whatever the recording process you'll get an idea of the potential of a particular instrument, but it's always true that you'll never know what it really sounds like until you either have it in your hands, or more accurately, hear it played by someone else sitting a few feet away from you.

Best,
Ken

[MikeB]

All these points are well taken, folks, thanks. I agree completely that this soundclip business is very imperfect, that there are many variables, etc. And, of course, no soundclip is a substitute for actually playing the instrument yourself.

I'm just asking if it wouldn't be more useful if we could hear the same general sounds played in each soundclip. I understand that we'll never control for all the variables.

Ken, I know perfectly well that you could make any mandolin on the planet sound better than 99% of us out here. But, when it's the instrument we're trying to hear, and not your beautiful playing, wouldn't simplifying and standardizing the sounds you play, help us sort what comes from you and what comes from the instrument?

Maybe this is a stupid idea. I'm almost sorry I brought it up. I just know that if I were selling mandolins online, for instance, I would hire ONE decent player and have him/her play the SAME SIMPLE thing on each mandolin. It seems to me I would be doing my customers a service. That's was my only point. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandopete]

I would love to hear more soundclips, especially with all of the wonderful photo's we have. #Seems like that 's the best way to "paint the whole picture".

I don't believe there is any realistic way to standard these. #If you listen to the mandolin tasting recordings that Ken Cartwright put out, that's about as close as you're gonna get.

I think the best solution to merely document what you have done and let the listener draw their own conclusion.]

Ken Cartwright's Mandolin Tasting (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/mandotasting.html)

[Tillmanator]

Perhaps if it was just standard practice that when posting a sound clip, the poster tells what kind of strings are on the mando, what kind of pick up/mic is used... also what kind of mixdown process if any etc.....

Would that help to sort of standardize things and make it easier to evaluate clips?

A mando recorded with old crummy strings and a 1987 home 4 track with a Radio Shack $20 mic is going to sound different than that same one with new J62s (I love those!) recorded with a $10,000 condenser mic with added effects in Pro Tools or something.

I guess if you knew the parameters of that specific recording it would help you determine why it sounds like it does... good or bad.

[David Catalfamo]

What is the general opinion as to what is an affordable clear way to put up a soundclip? youtube seems good, but What type of equipment does one need to make a decent recording , recommendations greatly appreciated.

[mandopete]

A mando recorded with old crummy strings and a 1987 home 4 track with a Radio Shack $20 mic is going to sound different...
You say that like it's a bad thing!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

All kidding aside, that's my point. #I just think it's helpful to understand what equipment is being used for a given sound clip in order to help the listener understand what they are hearing.

I know that the photographers amongst us have discussed the issues of color in the photos too. #It's kind along the same lines, but there's really no "standard" by which to judge these things.

With respect to using Utoob as a vehicle for these things - I think most folks that post videos are using a camera or even the mic/camera that comes with their computer.#On the plus side it's nice to get a visual with the audio. #On the downside the sound quality is not as good as what could be obtained through a dedicated recording set-up.

[Ken Olmstead]

I get what MikeB is saying. If Dennis at The Mandolin Store always played the same content on each clip (preferably using the same pick, mic / position, ect.) then you could hear the relative diffence in sound between each mandolin. Dennis starts all of his out with chop chords before he goes into a melody and he only seems to use 5 or so for all the mandos. Now Chad at Boyds is all over the place. Beautiful clips, but as Mike suggests, not overly comparative.

or...is it better to alter conditions and selections to represent the mandolin as accurately as possible.

Luckily, I don't have to figure that out since I don't own a wall full of mandolins for sale. Wait a minute...maybe I'm not so lucky. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[red7flag]

I have to agree with tenor, I prefer the way the Mandolin store presents its clips with basically the same content, making it easier to AB. For listening, which actually is not the purpose, Chad is fun to listen to. For me, I really like to AB part, but I have insatiable MAS.
Tony

[Ken Sager]

All these points are well taken, folks, thanks. #I agree completely that this soundclip business is very imperfect, that there are many variables, etc. And, of course, no soundclip is a substitute for actually playing the instrument yourself. #

I'm just asking if it wouldn't be more useful if we could hear the same general sounds played in each soundclip. I understand that we'll never control for all the variables.

Ken, I know perfectly well that you could make any mandolin on the planet sound better than 99% of us out here. #But, when it's the instrument we're trying to hear, and not your beautiful playing, wouldn't simplifying and standardizing the sounds you play, help us sort what comes from you and what comes from the instrument?

Maybe this is a stupid idea. #I'm almost sorry I brought it up. I just know that if I were selling mandolins online, for instance, I would hire ONE decent player and have him/her play the SAME SIMPLE thing on each mandolin. It seems to me I would be doing my customers a service. #That's was my only point. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
You're very kind, but you might be assuming that everybody wants to hear in a sample sound clip what you'd like to hear.

Yes, standardizing would simplify some things, but still wouldn't give you accurate representations of each instrument. You don't get that accuracy from recordings. I also view recordings as a courtesy and more importantly sales tools. I've driven miles and miles to play a mandolin that in my hands had surprisingly few of the qualities I had heard in online recordings. I ended up buying something else based on how it felt in my hands, not how it sounded online.

The Mandolin Tasting CDs are great and extreme lengths were clearly taken to remove variables and let the sounds of each instrument come through. I watched a tasting recording session at MandoFest and was amazed. Outside those types of controls, however, I don't think most recordings you hear are as representative as you think of how one mandolin differs from another.

Having said all this... I have a mandolin for sale and if someone asked me to record a particular set of tunes/scales/chops, I'd do it in a heartbeat. You're right, it's about what the customer wants.

I don't know how feasible it is to suggest that everybody selling mandolins provide clips playing the exact same thing.

Love to all,
Ken

[BlueMountain]

Good suggestions, Mike.
I've heard some sound clips where the G strings are never played, or the E strings. I'd like the sample to play them, too. Several people are now playing scales and some chop chords first, and while it's boring, it's useful. I could name one store owner who seems to be very good at playing Monroe-style, and I fear that if I bought an instrument from him, I couldn't get those sounds out of it. (Alas!)

The YouTube experience is also interesting, as the recordings are generally done with inadequate light (and, so, very grainy) and with the microphone in the video camera. It's very useful to hear the mandolin samples there, but one has to remember that the microphone may be terrible. Also, some of the room acoustics are terrible, and this is accentuated because the camera is perhaps five feet away from the mandolin, so there is more room noise than one may get with a closer mic.

We probably can't agree on standardizing sound clips, but your suggestions are good reminders.

[foldedpath]

I get what MikeB is saying. If Dennis at The Mandolin Store always played the same content on each clip (preferably using the same pick, mic / position, ect.) then you could hear the relative diffence in sound between each mandolin.

No, you wouldn't. Every different recording chain is a cumulative "EQ" on the instrument.

A "dark" recording chain (combination of microphone choice, mic placement, mic preamp, A/D converter and mixdown) will make a bright, possibly harsh-sounding instrument sound good. A "bright" recording chain will favor warmer/darker instruments. There is no way to level the playing field, so ANY online recording has to approached with great skepticism (IMO).

[Santiago]

Most of the clips I hear contain a few chop chords, a few runs, a short fiddle tune. This isn't rocket science (as is the sound part).