Mic pre's [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

John Bertotti

Mar-31-2008, 8:12am

I am curious how many of you use a mic pre with a condensor mic or any mic for that matter other then a ribbon mic? I thought of putting this in the cascade thread but it isn't about ribbons but the proper or possible uses of a mic pre, like the FMR RNP for instance. Thanks for any comments. I was prompted to this question by reading a comment elsewhere where a man used a oktava mk012 with a FMR RNP with good results.
Thanks John

Chunky But Funky

Mar-31-2008, 8:40am

Hi John,
I'm not sure I understand the question. #All microphones use a mic pre for live and/or recording. #Whether you use a mixer or outboard standalone pre is another question. #When commercial studios had high end mixers such as Neve, API, Quad Eight, etc, the entire album was done with one flavor of mic pre. #It is now more common to have different "flavors" of pre's for specific purposes and port them into a workstation via convertors or an interface. #I just launched a high end rental business based upon this very trend! #This board's very own SVJ (I think that is his initials) got me thinking about this over the summer, and now it is a reality. #My wife is very patient! #

Doug

Shelby Eicher

Mar-31-2008, 8:44am

John,
I've got the FMR pre and compressor and they are great for the money. A good pre will make your mic sound better.
Shelby

steve V. johnson

Mar-31-2008, 9:05am

Thanks, Doug, and yes, those are my initials. Please email me and let me know what you have and how your rental business is going?

And I do like mic/preamp combinations for "color". I don't have a lot of 'em myself, but I can rent/borrow some others from local studio guys.

Most preamps are solid state, even tho they may say "tube". If they cost under... oh... $500 a channel (that's a -really- rough figure...) and say "tube", be sure to check the specs &/or reviews of them. Most of those use what engineers call a "starved plate" tube, which means that the plate volatge supplied to the tube is very low, so at best the tube is an effect, not really passing the full signal. At worst the tube is what I've seen called a "marketing tube" just so that they can use the word to lure folks who don't read specs.

It's nice to have various flavors and colors to use, but if all one has is a mixer with preamps, as Doug mentioned, that's fine, too.
The art is in using whatever you have in the best way to get either the truest sound you can, or to get sounds that are whole enough to mangle into completely new sounds (more common is less acoustic musics, but true nonetheless... )

The RNP is good and true, simple and good.

stv

John Bertotti

Mar-31-2008, 9:11am

I guess I wasn't thinking things through. I plug into the firebox and it has gain of it's own. I wasn't thinking of that. I wonder how much more gain I would need or if the external pre would be better then what's built in. How much gain does a condenser need to be good or optimal?

TonyP

Mar-31-2008, 10:57am

John, I'm in no way an expert. But your firebox is a pre. If I remember right DanB uses it(or something like it) to record his albums. I believe for a modern condenser mic, it would be just fine. It's when you get into ribbon's where you need more gain that you start needing an outboard pre for sure.

For me, Steve said it all with(sorry for edit):

"The art is in using whatever you have in the best way you can"

All the threads on the Cafe are full of everybody doing the best they can with what they have. And when you reach the brick wall with all the experiments with what you have, you gain the experience to know what the next questions are. I like you have been wanting to bypass the experimentation and just go right to "the good stuff". But that by what the really experienced folk here like Steve and Spruce, is a pretty broad definition and depends on what you are looking for. And very personal with no hard and fast rules. Don't mean to muddy the waters.

steve V. johnson

Mar-31-2008, 11:19am

Oh! #Firebox! #Right.

You have nice preamps right there, mate! # So if you want other sounds that preamps can give you, then you can add others to your collection, but as for -needing- them to get the job done, I don't think so. # With a couple different mics and the Firebox, some players and instruments and a zillion different places to put the mics relative to the instruments (not to mention processing the stuff 'in the box'!) you have LOADs of sound options and 'colors'.

Great post, thanks! #I'd just add that the experimentation IS the good stuff!!

But, dear Tony, I must ask you, please don't propogate that thing about "ribbon mics need more gain," because -universally- they don't. #Granted, #the old ones do, and -some- of the modern ones. # But mic output doesn't measure how much detail a mic captures.

I don't mean to be severe. #It's just that there are audio myths that aren't really helpful for folks who don't do this stuff all the time and I get to feelin' a li'l twitchy about 'em. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

stv

TonyP

Mar-31-2008, 11:37am

oopps, sorry, but I told you I'm not an expert. I guess it would be helpful to know what modern ribbon's were talking about. I believe that very problem is trying to be addressed with the selling of the D-plug on the Cascade site.
I personally found the output of my Beyer M260.8 less than optimum for my equipment. It's why I had to cascade the QE's to my Alesis pre's to not be running so hot as to get hiss.
Or am I missing the whole point you tried to make, you don't need that much output?

Hey, you're dealing with such a dunce here, I don't even know what coincident means.:p

TimPiazza

Mar-31-2008, 12:00pm

If you're looking for an old-school tube mic-pre, very once in a while you can find a Peavey VMP-2 on eBay selling for a decent price. These are the old ones with a white face, and an AMR label on the front. Actually, there's one on eBay right now, but I know nothing about the seller. I'm not bidding, as I already have one in my kit.

One nice thing about the VMP-2 is that when you open it up, all you see are tubes, caps, trannys and such--no chips or tiny little surface mount components that are nearly impossible to DIY repair.

The other nice thing is that it's a great sounding pre, can be modified by swapping caps, (mine has Jensen trannys and Sovtek tubes), and puts you into a sonic signature that easily costs a couple grand if buying new gear.

Tim

John Bertotti

Mar-31-2008, 1:06pm

Luckily for me if I want a good tube pre I will dig up the prints and build one or try and fix a busted one if I learn a bit more about tube circuits. Having overlooked the pre of the fire box I was ready to invest in one. I am going to try the cascade fh2 first with just the firebox. But I know I would like a good condensor someday and I like the look of the oktava mods mk012. Some other day I may try one. For now one thing at a time.

TonyP I can explain coincident, that would be turning around in the store and running into the Swedish bikini team. That would definitely be a coincident. BWahahahaha! or maybe a blessing!

Obviously it's all new to me to. I have been using a blueball usb mic which had way to little gain for what I want, or just running my electric guitar straight into the computer through the fire box or a pedal. Mics and Pres are all new to me.

Mike Bunting

Mar-31-2008, 1:07pm

Spruce

Mar-31-2008, 1:10pm

+1 on the Peavey VMP-2....
Great pres for a lot of things....

"But, dear Tony, I must ask you, please don't propogate that thing about "ribbon mics need more gain," because -universally- they don't."

Don't they?
With the exception of the phantom powered ribbons, isn't gain (and maybe impedance) the issue in terms of getting a ribbon to operate and sound the way it should?

John Bertotti

Mar-31-2008, 1:28pm

I don't know about gain but I have noticed that impedance matching is, even between pickups and amps or instruments and pedals etc.., seriously underrated.

steve V. johnson

Mar-31-2008, 1:48pm

Most of the Royers don't need any more gain than other dynamic mics, and yes, as Bruce points out, the phantom-powered or tube-powered Royers (etc.) of recent manufacture don't need more.

I don't find that my Beyers really 'need more gain' than my other mics...
If I'm using an RCA BK-5b on a tenor sax or a banjo, for example, it doesn't need any more gain than a dynamic mic. If a mandolin or guitar player feels
enthusiastic, there's no need. Sometimes the BK-5bs from the '50's, and the RCA Varacoustic from the '30's need some extra for folks playing at living-room levels.

And yes, there's that other thing, too... when recording to digital systems a signal with good integrity (i.e., full bandwidth, true representation of the instrument/voice) can be made into a gained up file coy with the math in the digital system. # It's not like "hitting tape" where you have to get enough signal to get over the noise floor of the tape itself. # I find that it matters far less
how -much- signal gets into the system than the sound of that signal. #Of course I don't print tracks at casually low levels, but
I'm not caring how close to digital zero the track prints.

Maybe it's just me... maybe I'm accustomed to dynamic mics and ribbons, and the differences among those aren't great, and if I was always using
large-diaphragm condensor mics I'd feel differently... And most of the players I work with aren't working on playing louder, or ... better at louder levels... Just well and better... in my world -loud- isn't really an issue unless and until it's -too loud-...

Variable impedance is a really cool tool, and I like the preamps that include an impedance control, tho I don't own any... #Not only can you optimize the signal chain, but you can also use less-than-optimum settings for interesting textures and downright weirdness.

Mike, I haven't used one of the TRPs, but it's way up there on my lust list. # From my looks at the manual I don't think there's a 'downside' to using the TRP with an external phantom power unit. # And from what I've read from pro's who use them, there seems to be nothing bad about the TRP at all... # :-)

stv

Spruce

Mar-31-2008, 2:51pm

I'm kind of ignorant on all this impedance and gain stuff. #
I tend to just plug it in and see if I like the result...

That being said, I think that until relatively recently, mic pre manufacturers were basing their designs on what sounded good with condensers, and to a lesser extent, dynamics...
Ribbons were not in vogue...

But they sure the hell are now... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I've got one of the AEA TRPs, and it just kills on ribbons, as it was designed to do...

But there's something about those old pres (Altec 1567a and Ampex 351s come to mind) that--when combined with a good ribbon--that is just pure magic...

It ain't just gain (although the 1567a clocks in at 90Db or something like that), but it's the way those pres seem to match up with a ribbon that just knocks me out...

You can run them at half-throttle (instead of at 3/4-full throttle of a modern pre), and it's just a wonderful sound....

Is that an impedance issue, gain, or what?

John Bertotti

Mar-31-2008, 3:03pm

Sounds like impedance to me. Sound loss is exactly what i was running into with some of my gear earlier this year and I was able to track it back to impedance. Dog gone I remember doing it but I can't remember the circumstances. I guess that is the first signs of the forty something age kicking in!

Just to add I remember, it was playing back some music through a mixer. Turns out the impedance out was to far off from the stereo tracks I was trying to use as an in. When I switched to tape in the impedance#s were much closer and the sound was very much improved.

steve V. johnson

Mar-31-2008, 5:36pm

The first I heard of variable impedance was from Clarence Kane who was rebuilding the RCA BK-5b mics that I have now. He mentioned that he'd built a box with a knob that varied the impedance load, and it went between the mic and the preamp. He said too that older mics and old preamps were less consistent in what their optimum input impedances were, and of course, over time components change and the specs can wander a bit.

So when I've used preamps with variable input impedances, it seems a little like finding a radio station... You turn the knob and the sound changes and at one spot there is very marked clarity and power and other places there are other things that sound good, some sound awful.

I borrowed a "Vipre" one time and it was great. I had a small Summit preamp and the input impedance control was missing in action, didn't do anything at all... and the pre was really noisy, so I sent it back. I have an older two-channel Summit tube pre that I love. I wish it had an impedance control...

I don't know how the 1567a and the Ampexes differ from more 'modern' pickups... As for history, I was told by some old hands that a lot of US consoles, and thus preamps, were made for dynamic mics up until the mid-to-late '50's because condensors were rare... A couple of wild guys here in the midwest said that that's why they built their own mixing consoles, because the older ones weren't well suited to their hotter mics. Other, west coast guys told me that condensor mics were a huge boon for them because the old consoles and dynamic mics, while well matched, didn't have the clean gain to tape that they wanted, they were always using the compressors to hit the tape as hard as they wanted.

Ah dunno... it's all so anecdotal... all over the place...

stv

Don Julin

Mar-31-2008, 6:43pm

I have been recording with a variety of mics and preamps (including ribbon mics) for over 20 years. I recently purchased an AEA TRP and I must say that this is the first time I have ever really heard my ribbon mics. This thing is awesome! It boasts 83 db of gain! That would indicate to me that ribbon mics on quite sources do require more gain. Drums and horns are a bit different but this is a discussion group for mandolins. Also the clarity in the high end of these mics is alive with this preamp. If you like ribbon mics, save your money and get one of thes you won't be sorry. And the maunal does state DO NOT use external phantom power supply.

Mike Bunting

Mar-31-2008, 7:10pm

Any comments on the Toft Audio Designs EC-1 EQ/Preamp as recommended by Cascade. I need a pre that I can use condensors with as well as the ribbons.

John Bertotti

Mar-31-2008, 7:11pm

The darn AEA is almost double the cost of the FMR and the FMR has an almost cult following. I think the AEA is approaching that status also. For my needs I will get the FMR if needed though after the cost of mics the AEA is just to expensive for me to justify.

I find it interesting that with some of these boxes we use now that simple things like preamps is unknown to us noobs till pointed out above it didn't even cross my mind that the firebox gain was a pre. I completely overlooked it. I wonder how much more I've missed. Sure is nice to have all this experience here. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Fretbear

Mar-31-2008, 11:52pm

Anybody know if the pre's in the Presonus Firebox are the same as in the Presonus Inspire?

John Bertotti

Apr-01-2008, 5:53am

I'm going to go out on a limb and say maybe. What little they tell you about the inspire is similar to the firebox specs. I think they could be the same and it would make sense to have some shared systems just for production and design reasons but the unit is smaller which may account for why it didn't have any on board controls. The firebox is different then the bigger units they sell. If you haven't bought yet I would consider the next step up. I already want three inputs and it just isn't possible with the firebox. The inspire can be daisy chained but the pre amps are not as good as the fire studio project or any of the larger rack mounted units. I would buy the fire pod, some places still have them or the newer version, the fire studio project if I had it to do again and I didn't travel so much. Even now, when I travel, I find myself grabbing the BR-600 instead because it is all self contained so I could of had a larger unit for home use with more then two mic/instrument inputs.

Pete Martin

Apr-01-2008, 9:49am

I'm considering an AEA TRP which has no phantom, is it ok to use it with a condensor that is running on an external power source? And what should be considered when looking at these. Thanks, y'all! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Check AEA's site or email Wes Dooley at AEA for the definitive answer. I think I read not to do this in the manual of my TRP.

Pete Martin

Apr-01-2008, 9:52am

If you have the dough, the pre I like best with most condensers is the John Hardy M1.

J.Albert

Apr-01-2008, 10:44am

<< Anybody know if the pre's in the Presonus Firebox are the same as in the Presonus Inspire? >>

You'd do better to ask this question over at the Presonus' forums:
http://forums.presonus.com/index.php

Having said that, the preamps in the Firebox aren't bad at all. They aren't the equal of a good standalone preamp (certainly no Great River), but they do just fine.

I added an FMR RNP to my Firebox and as a pair they work well. Be sure to use TRS cables between the outputs of the RNP and the line inputs of the Firebox. The "form factor" of the two units are all-but identical; that is, you can set the RNP right on top of the Firebox and they look like they were made for each other.

For ribbons, you can use the +12db "boost" available in the "Firebox Control" application that comes with the Firebox.

Someone previously mentioned the FMR RNC ("Really Nice Compressor") in this thread, I think. I'd like to ask if anyone here uses one with which to record acoustic instruments (and voice). Is compression really necessary? I would think that for recording acoustic music, you would want to _avoid_ compression to capture more dynamic range. I've found that - while post-processing individual tracks - if the volume is low for some notes, I can select them and raise the gain by slight amounts to get them where I want.

The other thing I've thought about adding was an RME ADI-2 analog-to-digital convertor (or perhaps another standalone AD/DA convertor, such as the Frontier Tango). Could anyone comment on such units?

Thanks
- John

Spruce

Apr-01-2008, 10:56am

"I would think that for recording acoustic music, you would want to _avoid_ compression to capture more dynamic range."

Touchy subject....

The trick for me when using compressors on acoustic instruments is to make sure you never hear the compressor working. #Ever.

Especially on mandolins.

For acoustic music, I mostly use compressors for their sonic signature, and not for any compressing or limiting.

YMMV...

Mike Bunting

Apr-01-2008, 12:35pm

I asked Wes Dooley at AEA whether one could use phantom powered condensors with the trp and recieved the following "1. The four input Audio-Technica phantom power supply seems to work well.
2. Supplies that do not block the DC on the preamp side, do not work."
My 2 questions, are the 1 or 2 input AT's wired the same as the 4 input pre and thus are compatible with the TRP, and 2 what does #2 above mean and how does one ascertain this?
Thanks, I certainly appreciate everyone's patience with these questions.

John Bertotti

Apr-01-2008, 3:18pm

I don't have a clue as to your questions Mike other then I if they want the dc blocked it would be to keep a purely analog signal. I imagine a dc signal would be nothing more then a tone how loud or obnoxious would depend on the value of the dc signal, just my wild guess. While talking about compressors and pres and limiters I am curious as to what you would use a leveling amp for? Could it be used in place of a pre if only a little gain was needed? or would it color the source to much?

Spruce

Apr-01-2008, 3:31pm

"While talking about compressors and pres and limiters I am curious as to what you would use a leveling amp for? Could it be used in place of a pre if only a little gain was needed? or would it color the source to much? "

Well, you want the limiter to color the source. #That's why you use it...

I have an old RCA BA-6A limiter that works just fine as a mic pre, and it sounds wonderful...
And just a tad of limiting will smooth out anything....

John Bertotti

Apr-01-2008, 3:38pm

So is a leveling amp just another name for a limiter then?

This leads me to another question then. Why a Leveling am instead of a compressor?

Thanks!!!!!!!

Spruce

Apr-01-2008, 4:39pm

"Why a Leveling am instead of a compressor?"

Here's (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.pro/browse_thread/thread/dd62576227cf2cb3/e6c8cd4bd73afefc?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=compressor+vs.+limiter#e6c8cd4bd73afefc) a good conversation about the difference between the two boxes, with some heavy-hitters in the audio field checking in....

John Bertotti

Apr-01-2008, 5:58pm

Nice easy to understand discussion. I appreciate it Spruce.

Mike Bunting

Apr-01-2008, 7:57pm

The AEA TRP is a preamp for ribbon mics (hence The Ribbon Pre (TRP). I would like to use it for condensors also since it has such a glowing rep as a preamp. I'm new at this stuff so that's why I'm leaning so much on the wisdom of those participating in this thread. Many thanks to all once more.

Don Grieser

Apr-01-2008, 8:10pm

Here's a couple lower end pres to check out. For a real tube pre, not starved plate, check into the Electro Harmonix 12AY7. It looks cheap, fits in one of their stomp box cases, uses a wall wart, but it's a real high voltage tube pre. It's got some quirks--the gain on mine seems to go from off to almost full on between 9 & 10 oclock on the dial but it's not a high output device so it doesn't matter to me. The tubes are easily accessible for swapping them out for different flavors. It doesn't have much color--it just gives some nice clean musical gain for condensers. Not enough gain for ribbons. It was designed by someone well-known in the pro audio industry. I'll have to look around to find his name if you're interested in it. He's posted over at the TapeOp BB.

Steven Sank modifies a Behringer (I know, I know) Tube Ultragain putting Burr Brown op amps at all stages among other things. You'll see them on eBay. I got one from him when I picked up an old Shure ribbon he'd reworked. I figured I'd try the Behringer and send it back, but it's still in my rack. I never use the tube stage (it's starved plate for sure) but there's enough gain for ribbons, it's quiet, and it really sounds wonderful with condensers too.

Either one of these sounds noticeably better than the pres in my Firebox. That's all I know about pres. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

John Bertotti

Apr-01-2008, 8:24pm

"Either one of these sounds noticeably better than the pres in my Firebox. That's all I know about pres."

That there is one line I was hoping I wouldn't see. Oh well I am prepared to got the FMR route if I have to. Maybe even if I don't. I've actually thought of dumping the firebox in favor of the fire studio project. I understand it to have better pres then the firebox or inspire. I would also like more then two inputs. Nice to know what others think of the pres though, kind of prepares a person for what may be the inevitable.

Mike Bunting

Apr-01-2008, 8:54pm

Trouble is, Burr-Brown op amp chips appear to cost about $500 each, taking that modified Behringer out of the low end range. Leastways that what I read when I Googled op amps, am I mistaken.

Don Grieser

Apr-01-2008, 9:01pm

He's selling the Berhinger for somewhere around $350 for 2 channels. Not sure how he's doing that. The EH12AY7 runs about $190 for one channel.

steve V. johnson

Apr-01-2008, 9:12pm

Hey Don,

"... the Electro Harmonix 12AY7. It looks cheap, fits in one of their stomp box cases, uses a wall wart, but it's a real high voltage tube pre. It's got some quirks--the gain on mine seems to go from off to almost full on between 9 & 10 oclock on the dial but..."

Good points, the EH device is really cool, rude and happenin'.

Stephen Sank is an audio demigod. It's well worth paying attention to what he does. I'm no fan of Behringer, but if SS thinks it's worth messing with be sure to pay attention. SS does wonderful things with ribbon mics.

stv