Snakehead a2(z?) [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

mrmando

Mar-10-2008, 1:30am

Unless I'm mistaken, this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260219099392) bears every sign of being an A2Z even though there doesn't appear to be a Z on the label.

This is the second time around for this instrument, which went up over $4K a few days ago -- but then eBay shut down the auction after it closed.

Trying to get a story of some kind from the seller, who has zero feedback and didn't answer questions last time around. I've had a transaction or two turn out OK with zero-feedback sellers, but it's not for the faint of heart.

thunderfingers

Mar-10-2008, 6:08am

I emailed the seller a few times in the first auction with a offer to come see this mando in person. Was told that it would be ok if I wanted to come to GA. This time around, they have a lot more pics to view. This mando has all the markings of the A2-Z but no Z on the lable. I wonder if theres any one near GA that could look at this mando in person to make sure its for real. thanks

lmartnla

Mar-10-2008, 8:31am

What's the discoloration at the base of the neck on both sides? Maybe the neck was reset?

Glassweb

Mar-10-2008, 8:51am

I doubt that the neck was reset and it looks completely straight and original to me from the photos. Andy Statman played a blacktop A2- for years... in fact it is the mandolin that most of us associate with Andy's "sound". He now plays a Kimble F5. The only difference between that ebay mando and Andy's is the color of the top. (and wear of course!)

bradeinhorn

Mar-10-2008, 9:10am

i agree with steve. it's likely just that normal discoloration in the binding from sitting in the case for years. that happens to a lot of them. looks like a z to me too. do normal a2 mandos have the hyphen (see A2-)?

looks like a beaut to me. i'd love to see a better pic of the back.

btw-if anyone is looking for a refinished junior snake with a some non-original parts, retrofret just got a nice one. plays and sounds great and i think it's only like 1200.

Glassweb

Mar-10-2008, 9:27am

Hi Brad! Most of the snakehead A2's were of the sheraton brown finish. The A2- mandos that I've seen have all been black... until this one on ebay. All A2Z's that I've seen have had blonde tops and all A4 snakes I've seen had a sunburst finish. Now I know for sure that there were exceptions. For example, my friend Adam (who's been into this much longer than me) has told me of a pearl-buttoned, blonde-top A4 snake! One can only dream...

theBlood

Mar-10-2008, 9:46am

That listing struck me a little funny as there are no really good photos showing the finish condition and the seller has no feedback. I mean, do they really have a snakehead and don't know it? It seems as though they're trying to appear naive, but maybe I'm projecting.

I'd email the person with some leading questions and take a very hard look at the reply before bidding. A seller with 0 feedback and the first item they list is a snakehead...?

mrmando

Mar-10-2008, 10:24am

Seller says the last auction was closed because of a problem with the high bidder using a stolen identity.

There was a blonde snakehead A4 on eBay not long ago, but it turned out to be a fake auction. We have a thread about it around here someplace.

bradeinhorn

Mar-10-2008, 10:41am

Glassweb

Mar-10-2008, 2:57pm

isn't andy's black one a Z?
nope!

Daniel1975

Mar-10-2008, 3:16pm

FWIW, In my Fall 2005 Mandolin Magazine issue Andy is quoted as saying..."It's a Gibson A2Z snakehead from 1922 or '23"

mrmando

Mar-10-2008, 3:24pm

So what happened? Someone using one of those rotary ink stamps accidentally set it to a minus sign instead of a Z, and Gibson used the labels anyway?

bradeinhorn

Mar-10-2008, 5:57pm

FWIW, In my Fall 2005 Mandolin Magazine issue Andy is quoted as saying..."It's a Gibson A2Z snakehead from 1922 or '23"
yeah. i thought i'd read that too.

markishandsome

Mar-10-2008, 6:38pm

Maybe Andy cared more about the tone than getting the model designation exactly right. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

bradeinhorn

Mar-10-2008, 6:43pm

Maybe Andy cared more about the tone than getting the model designation exactly right. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
speaking of tone - the tonegard site says it's a z, so does the mel bay sessions interview page.

Glassweb

Mar-10-2008, 6:55pm

well, what the hell do i know? but i swear the last time i looked at the label it showed A2-... i'll have to call Andy and have him check that out to be sure!

JeffD

Mar-10-2008, 8:46pm

do normal a2 mandos have the hyphen (see A2-)?
Mine doesn't.

Glassweb

Mar-10-2008, 9:20pm

I've owned a couple of sheraton brown snakeheads where the label was just A2

I've also owned a couple of blonde A2z mandolins... each with different ornamentation around the soundhole

Then I've seen those A2- mandolins... "business as unusual" for Gibson I guess...

bradeinhorn

Mar-10-2008, 9:44pm

the snakes have inconsistencies all over the place. my old A model had an a-3 rosette, for example.

Charles Johnson

Mar-10-2008, 9:50pm

http://www.vintagemandolin.com/images/snakeheadgroup_3small.jpg

Lots of variations. All of these have the bound back, bound fingerboard, snakehead peghead, pearl logo, and extra thin strip of black binding on the inner edge of the top binding. All are original hardware and finish. Some are stamped A2 and some are stamped A2Z on the label. Other than color, variations include wide white ring vs two rings around the soundhole, 3 different types of tuners, and 2 different methods of pickguard mounting. The 1924 black top is my personal instrument.

Charles Johnson
Mandolin World Headquarters, Inc.
www.vintagemandolin.com

bradeinhorn

Mar-10-2008, 10:07pm

that's what i'm talking about.

woodwizard

Mar-10-2008, 10:29pm

Those six sure look nice together in the sunlight. Hmmm Hmmmm! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

mandolirius

Mar-11-2008, 12:17am

Snakes on a lane! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Glassweb

Mar-11-2008, 8:34am

I didn't realize this mando was re-listed... fishy! And now that the seller has posted some new photos, Imartnia's observation about the neck make me suspicious as well. Hard to tell without having it in hand, but the finish cracks on the top alongside the fingerboard as well as the heelcap abrasion and some strange looking binding coloration might point to the neck/fingerboard/sides having some issues. This is pure speculation on my part, but these new images do raise some flags.

markishandsome

Mar-11-2008, 8:44am

Lots of variations.

Care to comment on tonal variations? Does having the z on the label make it sound better? How does the hyphen effect things? I'm only half joking. My experience with gibson As in general has been pretty hit or miss, but I haven't played enough snakeheads to really form an opinion. Are they any more consistent?

MML

Mar-11-2008, 8:52am

Lots of variations.

#Does having the z on the label make it sound better? #

The Z does not make it sound better. I had a A2-z and it was a fine mandolin but my A1 with less appointments sounds much better to my ears.
[QUOTE]

BlueMountain

Mar-16-2008, 4:50pm

My A2Z says A2- on the label, and this is not unusual. My theory is that the person who stamped the label lost the Z and used a hyphen instead. It's clearly an A2Z. By the way, I'm sure that this wasn't merely setting a stamp that did several letters at once. Mine looks like it was done with separate stamps.

MML

Mar-16-2008, 8:47pm

Oh the A2z they are cool..........nice picture too

danb

Mar-17-2008, 4:59am

So far I've not been able to document one with "A2-Z" on the label that was other than a blonde top. I have seen some with the "a3 binding" (b/w) and a black top. There's one paddle-head with A2Z on the label that we know of too.

The snakehead A's seemed to get a pretty strange mixture of features. I've seen all these variations:

- labelled "a" with normal ivory or tortoise-celluloid back binding
- labelled "a" with "The Gibson" inlaid, with or without back binding
- labelled "a" with "The Gibson" silkscreened (white diagonal, rainbow diagonal, white horizontal)
- labelled "a2-" with various "Z" features (blonde top, b/w binding, inner purfling ring)
- any model with a curly maple back that would look more at home on a loar or F4
- ajr mandolins with stunning birdseye backs

I've seen a couple pictures of "a4s" with blonde tops, but never one in person

Personally, I'm most skeptical of supposed "A2-Z" models that are black or brown finish. I've never seen that substantiated, I think it's a way to inflate the price because of the extra mojo surrounding the "a2z" designation.

Fairly sure Andy's is "a2" on the label, but always ready to change my tune if clear evidence turns up!

danb

Mar-17-2008, 5:17am

On the sound subject- There seem to be more good ones than bad compared to paddleheads. Maybe it was just a good time for wood supply, or fewer mandolins being made in the same time period meant a little more time to make 'em right.

There are very good ones that sound astoundingly like a loar on the top 3 strings, there are also boring ones. Ajrs seem to be a pretty high success rate, but each individual instrument is what it come down to

squirrelabama

Mar-21-2008, 9:05am

This one was well worth the gamble. Martin was sooo right with respect to going after an item from a "zero feed back" seller: "not for the fiant of heart"
Other than dust and gunk, it appears to have lived most of its life in the case and under beds/in closets. I had to look real close to detect any fret wear! It does need a good cleaning, and the original silver plated waverly tuners (with pearl buttons!)need a good "overhaul" too, and then it will be ready to make music. If I have time, I'll post a series of B4 and after shots if anyone is interested......
Geoff

Glassweb

Mar-21-2008, 9:19am

MikeB

Mar-21-2008, 5:12pm

I owned an A2-Z once, confirmed by Charles Johnson and Dusty Strings, in Seattle. The label just said, "A2-" (and I'm not really sure about that hyphen). FWIW, it was not that special, IMO, at least tonewise. Played nice, but no punch at all.

danb

Mar-22-2008, 7:25am

To Dan... I just spoke with Andy the other day and he took the time to grab the A2(?) and look inside the sound hole. It's apparently so faded inside that he couldn't read a thing... no way to tell what the model designation was. Alas... and a lack!
Yeah, I'd heard that before about Andy's.. basically no positive confirmation (might have been from you Steve, actually!!).

Again, who knows. We just don't have the evidence yet, and I'm inclined to go with the catalog descriptions and the standard caveat that snakeheads have all sorts of odd features!

sgarrity

Mar-30-2008, 6:12pm

Wow.....MWHQ has three of these babies and Carmel Music has one. So we have 4, count 'em, 4 Gibby A2Zs for sale at one time!

Glassweb

Mar-30-2008, 6:16pm

And a near-mint A4 snake just sold on Ebay for $7,100 - healthy those snakes!

John Soper

Mar-30-2008, 7:40pm

Shaun:

"Wow.....MWHQ has three of these babies and Carmel Music has one. So we have 4, count 'em, 4 Gibby A2Zs for sale at one time!"

My wife calls this surfing the web for mandolin porn http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif