That old guy with a run of the mill mandolin [Archive]

Rick Crenshaw

Mar-09-2008, 10:57am

You ever run into that guy? I own several high end guitars and mandolins. Sometimes I wonder why. The more I play, the more I believe that one needs to stick with that ONE instrument (go ahead and make it a good one http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .. why not?) and then PLAY THE FOOL OUT OF IT. Learn how to get the tone out of THAT box. I think that's more than just getting a top o the line instrument.

Case in point. A local friend and mandolin picker took his Flatiron up to Dave Harvey in Gnashville for a quick checkup-tuneup. He inquired of Dave about getting a better mandolin. Dave played his Flatiron. It sounded GREAT. Dave played a high end Gibson. It sounded GREAT. In fact, my buddy came away with the impression that both mandolins sounded like... well, like DAVE HARVEY!

I have good instruments and I'm not getting rid of them. But I wanna be that old guy one day. Dings in my mandolin and everything.

Timbofood

Mar-09-2008, 1:56pm

Yeah, I have seen that guy too many times! He just makes me feel...less than I should. Trouble is I have known several of that guy for 30 years! I will just keep pluggng along.

JeffD

Mar-09-2008, 8:14pm

smallshinything

Mar-09-2008, 8:26pm

I hear all three of you. I had a bass player for awhile who made decent money and could play the heck out of anything on the low end, but prided himself on not only how beat up his instruments were, but how little he could pay for an amp or a bass and get tone out of it. He had Ebay specials and complete garbage guitars and not only played them, but LOVED them.

I'm a little of both. I appreciate a beauty, but find some pride in using my Eastman to blow the doors off the stock-broker with he Gil. I remember a gig in a biker bar in the middle of Nowhere, Illinois where the owner of the bar looked at my Mexican Strat and asked me when I was going to grow out of that "baby Strat"? I pulled him and his PRS on stage to show him that the thing was a tool and my hammer swung fine. He had the cash but not the hands.

I'm not that old guy, yet, but I find there is a joy in light tackle. I do the same thing fishing. I want to be the guy with the long stringer with my K-Mart ugly stick out with the guys who can't find the fish with a 400 dollar rig.

But then, I'm proud, poor and kind of a jerk. It gives me fuel to woodshed. Man, I'm not usually this cocky. It's some kind of envy, I guess. I never could afford the high end and it gets me adversarial.

JeffD

Mar-09-2008, 9:28pm

I appreciate good tools. I love great craftsmanship, not sizzle or hype, but an awesome sound due to the talents of awesome builders. My view is to spend my discretionary money on the best quality I can afford - to the extent possible discerning real quality from hype and, not buying quality that I cannot appreciate - that extra dollar needs to provide benefits that I can perceive and that I value.

But whatever floats yer boat. Like I said there is nothing to gloat about in either case.

One thing I don't like, however, is pretense. Its just as objectionable (to me) to get a high end mandolin to pretend you are a better player, as it is to get ###### instrument in order to pretend to be poor. In the first case your playing will give it away, and in the second case you insult those of lesser means ("that guy" might well have bought the high end instrument if he could afford it).

JeffD

Mar-09-2008, 9:32pm

My Dad, an avid fisherman himself, used to tell stories of fishing "where the poor folk fished" because he figured they would know better where to fish as they needed to fish for food. Till he asked some of the folks why they fished there, and was told that they saw all these rich folk fishing here and figured they must know what they are doing.

Rick Crenshaw

Mar-09-2008, 10:00pm

allenhopkins

Mar-09-2008, 10:14pm

Ever since Paul Prestopino advocated Strad-O-Lins to me, I've enjoyed taking out my $25 bought-from-an-old-lady-who-had-it-under-the-bed special, and at least not being embarrassed in the same jams with really good mandolins. I remember the late Dean Roets around here, cross-picking the heck out of a scratched up A-2. I think 99% of quality is in the player, not the instrument. That "old guy" has probably been picking his run-of-the-mill for 40 years, and is relaxed and comfortable and familiar with every fret. Nice way to be.

foldedpath

Mar-10-2008, 1:06am

I think there are differences here between mandolin culture and guitar culture. I think in the guitar world, especially the bluesy end, there are more folks value the ordinary-ness of their guitar, and how little they paid. "I found this guitar in back of a dumpster, and this rope strap too." There is some prestige in having a beat looking guitar - it is perceived as somehow more "authentic".

In my small town, chock-full of musicians everywhere, this is called "one-downsmanship."
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's prevalent in the local open mic and jamming scene, although in some cases it's because great players can't afford higher-end instruments, or don't want to drag their best instruments out in public for an unpaid gig. Or sometimes it's very valuable pre-60's instruments masquerading as beaters. It's hard to generalize, but there does seem to be a local aesthetic here that favors instruments that don't look fresh from the store, with fancy trim. That doesn't mean a player doesn't have a collection of fancier axes at home.

Anyway, I just got back from a jam at the local pub. I took my "beater" acoustic guitar (mid-70s all-mahogany Guild dreadnaught) because it works okay in that context, and I don't have to worry about leaning it up against a chair. It's bullet-proof. I did take my high-zoot mandolin (Lebeda Premium Plus) because against several fiddlers, guitars, concertina etc., that was my best chance at contributing something useful in the mix.

Sometimes you do need your best ammunition. From my limited experience, that seems to apply more to mandolins than guitars, due to the volume issues, and where they sit in the tonal range, compared to other instruments. You need a pretty decent mandolin to fit in with other traditional melody instruments. It doesn't have to look fancy, or cost a fortune, but the volume and tone needs to be there. In contrast, you don't have to spend much on a guitar to fit into most casual jamming or session scenes. The subtleties of a really fine guitar tend to get lost in that context.

Mandolin culture on the other hand has more of a worshipfull stance in regard to high end well built killer tone mandolins.

Well, except for that whole "distressed" thing.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It's interesting that this hasn't invaded the world of acoustic guitars yet, although you can now get very expensive "aged" Telecasters in the electric world. Maybe that's the next new trend in acoustic guitars? Martin has their "authentic" series where they're trying to get close to pre-war in the construction, but they haven't yet gone as far as Gibson and some boutique mando builders in pre-"distressing" new, store-bought instruments.

I say enjoy great instruments if you can afford them and want to, or enjoy the mediocre and beaters if you want to - its a personal choice and is no reason to gloat in either case.

Play the potatoes out of yer instrument.

Amen to that!

PhilGE

Mar-10-2008, 1:01pm

(Advise to myself)

Quit yer (mouse) clickin' and get to pickin'!

Sonomabob

Mar-10-2008, 1:19pm

Hello all:

Interesting topic. Especially as I attended the Co-Mando get together in Inverness yesterday. There were all manner of wonderful mandolins to sample, 18th century Gibsons to the newest Giacomel mandola and everything in between. They were all. And there were a bunch of players who could do justice to them.

Amazing day. So while I have some very normal mandos, and that is fine, The good ones are a real pleasure.

The question always is "$'s for hobby?", what is the right balance.

Bob

Sonomabob

Mar-10-2008, 1:21pm

Sorry,

Bit of a typo in my last post. Should have read "They were all wonderful."

Bob DeVellis

Mar-10-2008, 1:23pm

18th century Gibsons?

Gary Hedrick

Mar-10-2008, 1:46pm

All this one downmanship and oneupmanship talk brought back a less than pleasant memory. I was transferred from Indiana to Fresno, CA. I found a picking session with the Kings County Bluegrass Association. Lots of nice folks to pick with and I would take my Loar to the sessions and no one ever questioned what it was and I never brought it up. It was just a Gibson mandolin....until one evening at a break a really rough looking guy that I hadn't seen before came up to me and said "I know what that is that you're playing and what's to keep me from coming up to you when you leave and sticking a knife to your belly and taking it?" He didn't say anything else and just walked away.

I left and didn't come back and made sure I wasn't followed.

allenhopkins

Mar-10-2008, 1:50pm

18th century Gibsons?
You need those to drown out the 17th century Martin dreadnaughts.

Sonomabob

Mar-10-2008, 2:13pm

OK, 19th century Gibsons.

Bob

sgarrity

Mar-10-2008, 2:14pm

I've owned a good handful of "fancy" boutique builder guitars. And while they were all great and I really wish I had my Proulx OM/D back, I find that my beat up Hummingbird that I paid $400 for does just fine. (How's that for one downsmanship?? lol)
I want another guitar. But I darn sure don't need it. It also helps that it's not your typical Gibson. This one got some of the GOOD tone!

mandozilla

Mar-10-2008, 5:04pm

Why is it that a wife wouldn't object to a guy buying a $30,000.00 Harley but would have a cow if he bought a $5000.00 Weber?

Rick Schmidlin

Mar-10-2008, 5:09pm

Joe Craven. I forget what he played at Merlefest a few years ago, but it sounded like a million dollars.

Steve Cantrell

Mar-10-2008, 5:14pm

It was a Kentucky, and he played it well.

JeffD

Mar-10-2008, 5:21pm

PatrickH

Mar-10-2008, 7:00pm

I have a little different opinion on this. I truly believe we live in the "golden age of luthierie" in regards to guitar and mandolin family instruments. These are incredible times and they may not always be with us.

I recently took a tour of the Santa Cruz Guitar Company and was so very impressed by the humble genius that is Richard Hoover. And the great thing is, we live in times when folks just like him abound making guitars, mandolins, ukes and the like every day.

I find the great craftsmen today (of which I am not one by anyone's imagination) to be an endless source of facination and inspiration. I am often awestruck by the work they do and consider myself fortunate to live in these times and wish I could own an instrument from all of them.

Since I am not wealthy enough to do that, I will be satisfied to rest on the ones I have.

Unless I could get a second job and save enough for a double point from that new guy I saw in the magazine...

Austin Koerner

Mar-10-2008, 7:13pm

On that hardly stricty bluegrass thing on PBS, the mando player for Emmylou Harris is playing a kentucky, not even the most expensive one.

gnelson651

Mar-10-2008, 8:41pm

Interesting topic. Especially as I attended the Co-Mando get together in Inverness yesterday. There were all manner of wonderful mandolins to sample, 18th century Gibsons to the newest Giacomel mandola and everything in between. They were all. And there were a bunch of players who could do justice to them.
I don't believe Gibson sold mandolins during the 18th century but around the turn of the 19th century:

"Then around 1900, Orville Gibson of Kalamazoo, Michigan created two new styles of mandolins. Inspired by the way violins are constructed, he made his mandolins with a carved back (much flatter than the bowl-back of the Neapolitans, but carved to shape, none the less) and, importantly, the top carved in an arched shape. The plainer of the two styles he called his "A" style - it has a simple round teardrop shape profile to the body and a simple plain peghead. His other fancier style he called his "F" - it has a fancy body profile with projecting points and scroll and the peghead is likewise of a fancy shape. [It is said that these designations were short for "Artist" and "Florentine", but the names are confusing because they have been applied by the Gibson Co. and other makers to various other styles of mandolins. The letter designations, A and F, have been more consistently applied to the styles described."

A Brief History Of Gibson Mandolins
Donald Lashomb

Steve Perry

Mar-11-2008, 9:49am

Why is it that a wife wouldn't object to a guy buying a $30,000.00 Harley but would have a cow if he bought a $5000.00 Weber?
I think its because a motor cycle is sexy and youthfull and rebelious, while a mandolin... #The wife is reminded why she fell in love with you in the first place.

A mandolin - well...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Yeah, well... #If you're in a jam and someone doesn't see you, you miss your break. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

If you're on a Harley, and someone doesn't see you, there's a pretty darn good chance you die. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I'll take the DMM, thanks.

MikeEdgerton

Mar-11-2008, 10:19am

I don't believe Gibson sold mandolins during the 18th century but around the turn of the 19th century:
You're 100 years early. It would have been around the 20th Century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century).

Dagger Gordon

Mar-11-2008, 11:23am

Re Joe Craven.
Saw him in Glasgow last year. I like what he does, but I was not impressed with his tone at all. He was playing through a pick-up. Please note, I also play through a pick-up, and I don't have a problem with him doing that but I really didn't think he was getting a good sound.
I imagine he played through a mic when he played with Grisman, did he?

kudzugypsy

Mar-11-2008, 1:56pm

GE - i think you've stumbled across something that many people dont - me included. i started out on a really low end ###### F - i think it was a Washburn - anyway, i traded that one for a really good Kentucky KM-1500 in 1990 (i didnt know what i had! - it was just better than the Washburn) - so thru the years, i've gone up and up the food chain and now have some top tier mandolins that i wont name as to be polite including the top 2 builders in the world (i only add that to say i've run the full spectrum of quality from the cheapest to the highest) - but my point is that i had more fun and made more good music on that old KM-1500 than any of the high-end mandos i have now. if i had to do it all over, i would have just been happy with that one and put the $25K+ i've spent since into some other needy project / #hobby.

i've experienced the same thing as you at jam sessions and festivals - i think a person is better off sticking with one instrument and pulling his own sound from it. its REALLY hard to convince yourself of though - years ago, there were few choices in quality mandolins, but today, there are too many!

all you need to look for is a mandolin that speaks to YOU personally, and that plays good and stays in tune (i've had 1 high-end mando that just would not stay in tune - i'm not blaming the builder, it just wouldnt stay tuned...very embarrassing) leave out all the other hype and brand you here around (and on the cafe) and then go make some good music.

one of the best jam sessions i've been in over the last few years was when i was playing guitar at a jam and after everyone left just 3-4 of us stuck around playing some old warhorse tunes - i didnt have my mandolin so one of the guys said, here play mine - i REALLY didnt want to, it was a lowly economy F of some brand i dont recall - but to be courteous (it was his place we were jamming at) i played his mando - well, for the next hour+ we had the best time and that was some of the best music i've played and the most fun i've had musically in a long time - it restored my faith in a lot of things... that simple little late night jam.

SternART

Mar-11-2008, 2:13pm

Joe Craven used a mic in the DGQ & played one of those Aussie mandolins.

Mike Crater

Mar-11-2008, 2:32pm

I believe it's the mandolinist, more than the mandolin. At the last Symposium, Grisman swapped mandos with a kid. The kid got to play David's Giacomel, and David taught the class on the kid's entry level Kentucky. I doubt that Kentucky sounded as good before or since. Gris made it sing...

Griffis

Mar-11-2008, 3:52pm

One thing I don't like, however, is pretense. Its just as objectionable (to me) to get a high end mandolin to pretend you are a better player, as it is to get ###### instrument in order to pretend to be poor. In the first case your playing will give it away, and in the second case you insult those of lesser means ("that guy" might well have bought the high end instrument if he could afford it).
This quote reminds me of the days when I was in rock bands playing loads of gigs. Me and the guys I played with were hard working blue collar guys, some of them had families...so we played what we could afford. Nothing terribly fancy, even though back then (pre-Internet, pre-eBay) prices were a lot more reasonable on older gear.

Anyway, we weren't the greatest band ever to rock the block, but we were well-practiced and had some really quality (IMO) original tunes as well as some tight renditions of a good selection of cover tunes.

Anyway, I had to play SO many times with these suburbanite kids with lawyers for parents and a sense of entitlement. They'd roll their eyes at our perfectly functional but not high-dollar instruments and amps while they rolled in with their brand new shiny Marshal stacks and brand new Gibbys and Fenders as if the fact their well-to-do parents buying them the most costly stuff somehow made them better musicians or makers of better music. It really got annoying.

This is not a slam against people who are wealthy or people who invest in expensive instruments, this is all about attitude. These were just snotty rich kids with bad attitudes towards other people who played on what they considered inferior equipment.

I don't see any cause for that, and it is completely antithetical to the beauty of making music as far as I'm concerned.

To me, it's what you play, not what you play it ON.

Rick Crenshaw

Mar-11-2008, 4:26pm

Thanks for chiming in everyone... and for what it's worth, I have TWO very nice high end mandolins and wouldn't trade them for the world. But every once in a while I find myself wishing I had an old vintage Martin guitar, or Gibson mandolin. Then I have to think of that archetypical 'old guy' and wonder why I feel that way. My guitars and mandolins are the best made. I just need to play. I hope my guitar and mandolin stay with me a long, long time and I just totally bond with them. Just like that old guy did with his run of the mill instrument. I want to feel like he does, even though I know I have a great instrument in my hand... I want the music to be ME. Not the instrument. Best of both worlds I guess. Can I be that guy with my top o'the line stuff?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

mandozilla

Mar-11-2008, 8:33pm

Steve
I met my wife of 36 years while I was playing a gig. Between sets I was noodling around on my Martin and she came up to me and sat on my lap (we were both 19 years old)...the rest is history. She's constantly reminded of how we met but she'd still have a cow if I forked over 5 G's for a mando...dammit!

Timbofood

Mar-12-2008, 9:36am

I agree with the thought of Musician over instrument. A lousy picker won't make the fine instrument sound great but, the "virtuoso" can make a cigarbox sound fantastic. I see it everywhere. I have a friend that is not the best player in the world but has a FINE collection of instruments. Hhe is the "collector musician." I have another friend that has just the "regular kind" of instruments and plays as if they were worth millions. So, like I sayI'll just keep plugging alomng with my Alvarez until I can buy the one I just "want". Not because I will be an improved musician with the wanted Mandolin but, I want one from him. I'll still need to learn to practice

Mr. Loar

Mar-12-2008, 9:39am

I've seen it go the other way too. The guy with the beat up old mandolin that sounds like an old beat up old mandolin.

Timbofood

Mar-12-2008, 9:43am

True enough!

JeffD

Mar-12-2008, 10:44am

#I just need to play. #
That, to me, is the secret to everything.

I dabbled in Zen in my philosophical wandering youth, and one of the answers to so many of life's questions was:

Chop wood, carry water.

In other words, so much of life is the doing, the playing itself, not all the extraneous yuk and mental gymnastics we go through.

Alex Orr

Mar-12-2008, 10:45am

This kind of thread always gets into musician v. instrument, which isn't surprising. I totally agree with the general sentiments, but I will say, a good instrument CAN make a big difference. When I first started playing guitar, I had a cheap Washburn. Not a bad used-$200 guitar at all, but after a while, even I could tell it had a thin sound with little volume or character. It took a while to save the money, but I was finally able to put enough dough in the instrument fund that I could shop for something significantly better. I ended up buying a used 2000 Martin D16RGT for $900 and it made a huge difference. Now, this ain’t a super high-end instrument, and I’ve certainly played better (an HD-28 I played a year or so ago was stunning) but it’s more than your bargain Fender or Yamaha, and it’s received universal praise from folks who’ve played it. I could play the same thing on that Martin for folks who'd only heard me on that Washburn and I would routinely get more compliments than I had ever heard before. Furthermore, it was just a LOT more fun to play. In particular, I stopped struggling to get some volume out of my guitar and as a result, I was able to more easily develop some better right-hand habits. I've often said that one of the things that probably keeps me from dropping my guitar playing altogether in favor of mando is that I enjoy the sound and feel of my Martin way too much to ever give it up or let what few skills I have on the thing go away completely. A good instrument can inspire a player.

Jim Nollman

Mar-12-2008, 11:33am

I love this thread. It speaks to what i think about every time i pull a mandolin of mine out of its case to start a gig or play with friends.

I am absolutely convinced that every mandolin is unique. So, in fact, my very carefully selected Eastman 515 sounds better than a few Loars do. Not ALL Loars, mind you, but certainly more than one or two. I definitely prefer the woody bark of my 515 a whole lot more than 5 or 6 very expensive mandolins I jammed with at Wintergrass. And I respect the fact that the owners of those other mandolins, definitely liked their sound better. I guess you'd call that kind of thinking, post modern. It also seems to be true.

Dagger Gordon

Mar-12-2008, 11:42am

Good post, Big Crunch.

To some extent it comes down to whether you feel the instrument is holding you back. If you think you are playing much better on a better instrument, then you should look to upgrade.
But sometimes an instrument just doesn't seem to suit someone. I had a good Gibson A model for 11 years. It was definitely a decent instrument - well set up, pretty loud etc, but somehow I tended not to play it very often. In the end I decided to trade it in, and bought a Collings MT which I play it a great deal -far more than I used to play the Gibson.
Conversely sometimes that 'run of the mill' mandolin just feels exactly right. It also depends whether you are referring to a cheap Pac Rim thing or something a bit better, indeed like an old Gibson A which can be purchased for relatively modest prices. But even then, no two instruments are ever the same. You might get lucky and have a particularly good one.

CES

Mar-12-2008, 11:43am

I agree with both sides of the argument...The most important factor in making good music is the musician. If you've got it (unfortunately I don't http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif you can make anything sound good. BUT, to some degree the instrument absolutely makes a difference. A quality, well set-up instrument will sound better than one that isn't, and I tend to really enjoy playing my "good" guitar, a Guild D-40 with some finish checking I got a nice deal on, much more than the Applause beater I got really cheap to take to the lake and learn some slide on because the all solid D40 just plays easier and sounds much richer, especially in the lower end. In the end, I think it comes down to finding a balance between what you need and what you want/can afford. I'm purely a hobbyist, and thus won't be dropping more than 1000 on an instrument anytime soon, mainly because I've got 2 kids college tuitions coming up, retirement to fund, etc. But, without those restraints, and particularly if I were a pro, I'd have no problem shelling out the dough to get a quality instrument to further my career, and hold no animosity towards those able (or willing to sacrifice for) better instruments...agree, though, that the "snot nosed rich kid" thing gets old really fast unless they can back it up with their playing!

Timbofood

Mar-12-2008, 12:56pm

When I sold guitars one of the first questions I asked was "How serious do you feel about it?" with the answer directing the next question of "How much money do you have to spend?" If the guy had (at that time) $100.00 we, the store and shop guys would pick out one of a multitude of inexpensive instruments (Alvarez, Yamaha, Etc.) and set him up to the best advantage of each guitar. If he said he had $1,500 the same care and time was spent with a significantly better instrument (Guild, Martin, Etc.). I think this is true with any reputable dealer that has knowledgable shop staff and a sales force that has more than "cranking out a guitar to some kid as fast as possible" for a work ethic. Typically, I would say a better instrument will gove the novice more advantage in not having to replace it as fast but, a not so great one, well set up, will at least start them on their way.

AlanN

Mar-12-2008, 1:03pm

There's the story Jethro told:

"I was in a bar, listening to a bluegrass band butcher all my favorite tunes. I was, of course, checking out the mandolin picker, a guy all decked out in fancy clothes and and sporting a brand new shiny Gibson F-5. The guy couldn't pick a lick.

Then, in walked a skinny dude in ratty clothes, carrying a beat up old mandolin case. He asked if he could sit in, opened the case and took out a weathered old F-5 and stepped up to the mic. If anything, he was worse than the first guy."

kudzugypsy

Mar-12-2008, 1:05pm

some people need constant change in their life, and some seem content for the rest of their lives with the same item (whatever it may be) - its really hard for a type A person to be type B and vice-versa - wives, cars, mandolins, jobs, etc - seems to follow the same pattern. that is why i am so picky about things - i'm one of those who likes to buy 1 thing and use it forever, doesnt matter if its a toaster oven or a musical instrument - just about every musical instrument i bought, i thought it was a lifetime keeper, but you cant sample them all and keep them all...some have to be sacrificed to fund the next.

i really think that as you mature as a musician, your tastes get refined and you know more of the qualities you want in an instrument - its really hard to have that knowledge when you are first starting out - how i would like to have the knowledge i have gained up to now, and be 20 again - it sure would have made things so much smoother (and cheaper) - i remember getting out of college and buying my first (and last) #"boutique' guitar, a Santa Cruz Tony Rice model - the guy selling it had an old beat up 1936 Martin D-18 i could have gotten for about $1500 more, which at the time seemed like $10,000 to me...should have scraped up that money and forgot about the TR...which i didnt keep for even a year, but at the time, thats what i thought i wanted. when i first started seriously playing BG, i remember the common thinking (that i assumed correct) was that you wanted a rosewood guitar, so the first 3 guitars i bought were RW, then, i found i liked the snappier, quicker sound of the D-18s over the boomier 28's...all that just came with more experience.

there was an interesting thread on the Martin forum (UMGF) asking if people who finally got their dream instrument were totally content and free from wanting anything else...well, it seems most never lost that AS....GAS, MAS, its a disease.

Jim Kirkland

Mar-12-2008, 11:21pm

I was allowed to buy a new harley ultra classic last sept. New mando is on the way. But an interesting thing in this harley purchase was to make sure the 1930 oval hole regal would fit in the hard saddle bag and be lock. I can say when we travel on the harley the regal is along for the ride, and gets a little time being played.

Bertram Henze

Mar-13-2008, 4:08am

I guess that old guy is a musician, not an instrument collector. The "snotty rich kids" on the other hand are just fools with tools.

An ideal combination is an instrument that fits the player, and there is an 80/20 rule for the instrument but an 100/0 rule for the player. There are so many ways to break either of those rules that the old guy represents a surprising minority.

80/20 for the instrument could be summarized as "not just good, but good enough" (thanx gnelson). Much of the "extra quality" beyond the 80% goes not into music but into envy and even gangsta stories (like posted above) that can spoil all of the fun.

100/0 for the player involves the player sporting a soul that's able to feel the music and make others feel it too. There is something money can't buy.

Bertram

Mr. Loar

Mar-13-2008, 4:23am

Imagine this; a person with a beat up old no name mandolin, old strings (never been changed), bad sounding instrument. A pristine Gibby F5, Gilchrist, or any top of the line mandolin is handed to him. He says, "It's OK, but I still like mine better". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Bertram Henze

Mar-13-2008, 4:34am

It's OK, but I still like mine better
Easy to imagine, and understandable. Most people wouldn't swap their wife for Paris Hilton either.

Bertram

Klaus Wutscher

Mar-13-2008, 4:45am

Of course, the irony is this:

You actually NEED a good instrument when you start out, and not once you are a seasoned player because:

1)Better instruments allow for a better setup, stay in tune (or play in tune) better. This affects many things, not the least it helps avoid too much tension in the body because of impossible setup. Also helps your ears.
2) They give easier access (or access at all) to a broader range of tones and dynamics. That allows the beginner to grasp the idea of good tone much faster because if the player tries different things, the instrument actually responds...

A seasoned player can pull good/great tone out of just about anything - but he has learned how.

Of course, we all start with cheapos and work our way up....

kudzugypsy

Mar-13-2008, 7:21am

Imagine this; #a person with a beat up old no name mandolin, old strings (never been changed), bad sounding instrument. #A pristine Gibby F5, Gilchrist, or any top of the line mandolin is handed to him. #He says, "It's OK, but I still like mine better". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
this has happened to me more than once - but not from what i would consider someone whose opinion really mattered to me - but hey, thats GREAT (and somewhat sad too) if they really believe that.

i had that happen with my Gibson F5 when an owner of a 70s Aria Pro II played it.

AlanN

Mar-13-2008, 7:26am

[
i had that happen with my Gibson F5 when an owner of a 70s Aria Pro II played it.
I love that.

And a bit closer to apples-to-apples, I had the owner of an early 70's F-12 say to me (after playing my F-5):
"Mine is louder".

Flog on.

Bertram Henze

Mar-13-2008, 8:11am

but hey, thats GREAT (and somewhat sad too) if they really believe that.
Well, we cannot rule out that someone stands his ground for the moment, but later goes home to consider and order a better instrument.

Just can't expect him to bash his beater to pieces in front of you then and there. It also might depend on the style of the exchange - when I swap instruments with somebody else I strictly avoid to say anything condescending, hoping the other one will do the same. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Bertram

Timbofood

Mar-13-2008, 8:17am

Thanks Klaus, that is exactly the way I saw the "business" when I was selling instruments. Give a rookie as much of a break as possible, they won't be in pain and the possibilty of allowing someone to develop a better feel for music is about as important as it can get. It's not so much what the instrument is but how the player feels with it. A bad set up can "hinder" as much as a really careful setup can help.

Red Henry

Mar-13-2008, 10:38am

You ever run into that guy?
I heard that guy you're talking about playing in a festival parking lot one day, no fooling. It was Charlie Cline. He had a cheap pac-rim mandolin, and he was REALLY playing bluegrass mandolin on it.

As I recall, Charlie was the only man to play all five instruments in Bill Monroe's band at one time or another (including mandolin, when Bill had broken bones from a car wreck). And he could do it.

Charlie was there with Jimmy Martin's band, and I knew he could play mandolin but hadn't heard him do it. That was living proof that you can play great music on a not-so-great mandolin!

REd

blackhawkjoe

Mar-13-2008, 6:26pm

I hate to say it, but im that guy!......................................... JK i suck

Jim

Mar-16-2008, 10:26am

[QUOTE]Imagine this; a person with a beat up old no name mandolin, old strings (never been changed), bad sounding instrument. A pristine Gibby F5, Gilchrist, or any top of the line mandolin is handed to him. He says, "It's OK, but I still like mine better

There is more to liking your old beater then just quality comparisons. I still have my "old Beater" that got me through some HARD times. I would not trade it for your Loar,

Perry

Mar-16-2008, 10:42am

In the movie "My Old Fiddle" Tommy Jarrell is handed a Stradivarius and hands it back saying he liked his fiddle better http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

JeffD

Mar-17-2008, 10:28pm

Bertram Henze

Mar-18-2008, 3:00am

It's OK, but I still like mine better
Easy to imagine, and understandable. Most people wouldn't swap their wife for Paris Hilton either.

Bertram
Yea but with mandolins you can at least get a test drive.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
I have a wall full of hanging ex-instruments I used to play, staring at me with a silent reproach that I proved untrue... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

jim_n_virginia

Mar-18-2008, 4:54am

I find that my beat up Hummingbird that I paid $400 for does just fine. #

#It also helps that it's not your typical Gibson. #This one got some of the GOOD tone!

I've heard that Shaun's Hummingbird with the big chunks of wood missing out of it was due to the jealous rage of the grandaughter of the woman who distressed Monroe's mandolins! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

All I know is he can sure flat pick the heck out of that thing! Perfect example of it's not the instrument it's the player! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif