Early gibson question

[Jonathan Peck]

Heres a picture from the Milwaukie Mandolin Orchestra (http://www.milmando.org/Early_MMO_photos%203.html) website. The picture is marked 1902. In the middle of the picture is an early Gibson F style mandolin. After checking the archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?orville) if the date on the picture is corect, would this mandolin be one of the first manufactured? Does anybody know the story behind this picture?

[Jonathan Peck]

Here is a close-up of the mandolin

[Big Joe]

I know the three point round hole was made as early as 03 but don't know for sure when the first one was made.

[Dave Harbst]

I can understand the mystery of the '02 F, but what really amazes me is how cool it was for 28 guys to get together as an
orchestra. So formally dressed, white shirts and ties! Try to get 28 mandolin players together these days. I've been playing at a jam session just about every Tuesday evening for 22 years and I doubt we ever had 28 total musicians, not just mandolin players. I wonder if anyone has any early recordings of those mandolin orchestras?

[Bill Snyder]

There are several mandolin orchestras in existence today. Just google them. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mandolin+orchestra)

[Red Henry]

...and there's also the annual convention of CMSA (Classical Mandolin Society of America), at which, among other activities, a grand "mass orchestra" works up material and performs a concert on the last evening of the convention. The last time I was there, we had about 150 players on stage-- mandolins, mandolas, mandocellos, some guitars, three basses, and I forget what else. Great stuff.


Red


.

[danb]

Hi Jonathan,

Can you get a higher resolution image? If the date is correct, that could be an Orville-made one. I lean towards the theory that the picture is a little later though. 1903-1905 is a good range for that sort of 3pt.

[Cuba Ridge]

That sure is a large guitar on the far in the picture. I thought they didn't make large guitars until after 1910 when the first dreadnought was introduced.

[MikeEdgerton]

The Dreadnought (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Fun/Dreadnought/ditsondread.html) was introduced mid 20's if I'm not mistaken. Lyon & Healy (among others) was making huge guitars prior to that date, they just weren't fashionable.

Added: I just found a reference to the drednought being designed in 1916 and introduced into the Martin line after 1930. I know they were making that model for Ditson prior to bringing it into their own line.

[Red Henry]

Right, in 1971 a friend of mine ran across an Oliver Ditson D-18 (I don't remember the actual model name if it had one, but that's what the guitar looked like.) He made a good trade with it to an instrument dealer in Nashville (O.D. guitar plus $1200 for a pristine RB-12), and both parties were well satisfied with the deal. But I haven't heard of another Oliver Ditson dreadnought showing up since them. Anybody know of one?


Red

[allenhopkins]

Here's (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Guitar/Martin/29DitsonD/29ditsond.html) a link to an original Ditson dreadnaught at the Frets.com museum page. #Martin Co.'s apparently doing a Ditson dreadnaught reissue.

And here's (http://www.harpguitars.net/history/month_hg/month-hg-4-05.htm) a link to some L&H "monster bass" guitars -- six-string and harp guitars -- on the harpguitars.net website.

And here are (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3594) the Mandolin Archive's pictures of a 1900 Orville-signed F-model Gibson. #The one in the photo above looks newer, not unlike my own 3-point #6208 which I think is 1906 (?) #I would be a bit skeptical that the photo's as old as 1902.

[JeffD]

So is that the concensus, that the date on the picture is wrong?

[Jonathan Peck]

Hi Jonathan,

Can you get a higher resolution image? If the date is correct, that could be an Orville-made one. I lean towards the theory that the picture is a little later though. 1903-1905 is a good range for that sort of 3pt.
Hi Dan,

I downloaded the picture from the MMO website, but I can certainly ask for a high resolution scan in the interest of dating this mandolin. I to was wondering if this was an Orville made one or possibly a very early one given to the orchestra to try out. I'll do my best to get a better copy of that picture.

[Ray(T)]

The large guitar looks to be the wrong shape for a dreadnaught anyway. The picture was taken when centre partings were either on the way in or on the way out!

[MikeEdgerton]

Nobody said the large guitar was a dreadnought.

[JEStanek]

Since the Café's own Linda Binder (Hrimaly)is the MMO conductor, perhaps she can get access to a better copy of the print than what is on the web page.

Jamie

[Jonathan Peck]

Thanks for the heads up, Linda responded simultaneously to your posting. She has forwarded my inquiry to Paul Ruppa their archivist

[Linda Binder]

Hi,
Paul sent me the following to post. In a nutshell--wrong date on the photo:

<<I am unfortunately pressed for time right now. I can't write to the Cafe right now. If you want to pass this info on, please do.
Here is a better scan of the photo. The 1902 date on the photo is not accurate. We have no exact date for the picture. In checking BAMC records for the membership numbers, a better guess at the date the photo was taken would be between 1904 and 1906.
This clearer image should give the Gibsonologists out there a better sense of the chronology where this f model falls. I don't know Jonathan, but I'm pretty certain that Dan B can jump all over this.
My research did uncover evidence that refutes the 1902 date on that great reprinted Gibson Catalog. I found an Gibson ad in the Cadenza from early 1903 that references the upcoming publication of that catalog.
I'm back on the road - If folks need more info, I'll be back later.
Paul>>

[Linda Binder]

The photo:

[Linda Binder]

BTW, Good catch Jonathan! I'll ask Paul to blot out that incorrect date on the posted version of the photo on the MMO website so there isn't further confusion.
Thanks!
--Linda