What's your definition of perfection on stage?

[Woody Turner]

If you heard three clunkers in one song from someone on stage--including yourself--is there any way you would "award" an "A" for the performance or performer? Probably not, even if there were a thousand notes in the tune. Of course, not every mistake is a clunker--a clearly sour note in a lead. Perhaps the intended string didn't sound audibly or the botched note fell within the scale, so no one but the player probably noticed. When the mistake is obvious, though, it seems strange to me that 1 or 2 rogue licks out of a 1000 might "ruin" a piece--even though 99.99% of the rest are fine. Would we hold mathematicians to the same standard?

As I prepare for a short classical performance at the end of the month--a duet--I'm grappling with this issue, grading myself for each run through. (I'm practicing alongside an up-to-speed recording of the other part.) A muffled note earns 1% penalty, an incorrect (but not obvious) note deducts 3 points, and a sour note subtracts 5. Losing my place against the recording can lead to major deductions--maybe a 5 or 10 if I recover gracefully within the measure but a lot more if I have to wait a few seconds to rejoin the tune.

Perfection seems to me to be, paradoxically, a relative standard. What might be perfect for me would rank as a poor show for a Chris Thile or Carlo Aonzo. Even so, we all strive for technical perfection, even though we realize that it does not represent aesthetic perfection. But does quantifiying the learning/practice curve represent a sound way to approach the issue?

[Crowder]

Classical music obviously requires accuracy and attention to detail, but your thought process sounds overly analytical to me.

I think you learn the piece cold, so that you have the opportunity (if not the probability) to nail it on any given day. That's step one. Step two is to focus on playing it with expression and maybe not so much attention to the "perfection" standard you've set. Try to get your mind out of the way and feel the piece. Make it sound like MUSIC.

If you sit down to play the piece in front of an audience, having programmed yourself to count your errors or "keep score" during the performance, you're less likely to give an inspiring reading of the piece. Just my two cents.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[devilsbox]

What Crowder said. If you are thinking about mistakes you'll be making them for sure! Think about the tune and feeling the music. That being said, I am very familiar with mistakes.

[Lee Callicutt]

Wow! Take this with a whole block of salt, since I am a loser admittedly coming from a very modest background of classical guitar with an inordinately painful level of stagefright etc., etc., but do yourself a big favor and forget the grades of A, B, etc. with regard to your own hypercritical analysis of your performance and think in terms of grade "E," for entertainment of the audience.

People who understand and perform music at your level are far and few between. Don't stifle your talent.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Two thoughts:
1) Technical execution is not the be all and end all of a musical performance. If the music is played perfectly but without feeling, it will fail to move the audience. If music is played imperfectly while still capturing the spirit of the piece, it could be a great performance.
2) Joe Craven once told me if you end well, you can get away almost anything. I have no reason to doubt him. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Daniel

[Bertram Henze]

This perfection business in music has been laughed at over many decades and music genres. The Germans have a name for it: Beckmesser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Meistersinger_von_N%C3%BCrnberg#Beckmesser).

Music is for the audience, and it's effect on the audience is the only measurement that is worthwhile. I the player is satisfied and the audience is not - why perform?
A good player is one who gets back on track quickly after a mistake - just like a good loser outperforms any winner.

Bertram

[gnelson651]

My daugther plays violin and goes to a magnet high school for the performing acts. I've heard many prefectly played performances from their top students, each note right on, timing impeccable. But most of these wunder kids play with no feeling or expression. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

For me, I prefer a raw permanance that moves me then some robot that plays with perfection.

[Mandodrummer]

For me, a performance is a success if both the audience and I have fun. #Was it Charlie Parker who said that what he liked about attending live performances was observing what the performers did with their mistakes?

[Glassweb]

Joe Craven once told me if you end well, you can get away almost anything. #I have no reason to doubt him. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Grappelli once said "start well and end well and the middle part will take care of itself". If you can't believe Steph then who can ya trust?

[Celtic Saguaro]

As has been said above flawless isn't quite the same thing as perfect. You hear someone fluff the fretting of a note or two on the mandolin in the middle of a piece and it all works out in the end. It does annoy the heck out of me when I do it, though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[dasspunk]

When I make a mistake during a break, I tend to hit it again... sometimes a few more times... and usually harder each time... but I'm wacky like that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But you're talking about a different thing. Orchestrated music is more about the culmination of individuals and instruments attempting to relate a common idea/message/theme/etc... I can see where a few clunkers might distract from this.

But still, clams happen... I kinda look at it like this: I practice my ### off all the time and put forth my best effort for every performance. At any given moment, I suck as much as I do... nothing I can do about that and hopefully tomorrow I will suck less.

[Dave Schimming]

I home record my music primarily as a hobby and have found that the first take generally has more mistakes but does have more emotion & feeling. Subsequent takes recorded to fix the mistakes don't sound quite as interesting.

[dasspunk]

Oh, and no... note correctness is only one small aspect of perfection in music. Would you consider using correct grammar to equate to a perfect conversation? Or spelling to the perfect book?

[jim_n_virginia]

Pete Frostic of Old School Freight Train once told me that a wrong note is only a half step away from the RIGHT note, then he would slide into the right note! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I screw up all the time on stage (wrong notes, verses switched around, forget words etc.)but you know what I have learned over the years? If you don't show it and keep on going 99% of the time the audience never knows it!

I would say you are trying too hard to be perfect and as human beings it is an impossible task.

[woodwizard]

I think people tend to remember a screw up in the beginings and endings more than in the middle.

[John Rosett]

If I can play a solo that's whacky enough to make the singer forget the words, then I figyre that I've done my job.

[TEE]

Play music not notes- Perfect playing reminds me of those Midi recordings that first came out on the internet. Its alright to strive to be perfect but the ebb and flow of playing is more interesting. Math and music should not be in the same sentence together.

[UnityGain]

At any given moment, I suck as much as I do... nothing I can do about that and hopefully tomorrow I will suck less.
Yep, thats about how I look at it. I think having this attitude is the only reason I can go on stage right now... So far I havent sucked enough to have people throw anything and thats about all I can ask for...

[Chippsta]

What you need to avoid is what i call the "Snowball effect". I discovered this in myself when i was just out of college and a DJ at a small AM station. I had to 'rip and read' the news, ripping stories from an old teletype (this was in the late 70's) sometimes 'cold' without reading anything beforehand. What would happen to me would be something like - a stumble or mispronounciation in the first 15-30 seconds, then the back of my mind would start going "O man! I can't believe you flubbed that name!" and for the rest of the newscast, my attention was on that mistake and guess what? I'd turn one mistake into 4 or 5 and have an awful clusterf*&^ by the end !! So it is with playing ... WHEN you make a mistake you've got to immediately forget it so you can concentrate on the rest of the piece and avoid beating yourself up, because everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone can recover from mistakes and go on to a great ending !

[mandroid]

A friend used the Hansel and Gretel analogy:
don't worry about whats dropped behind you keep going.

[you wont find the left behind bits backtracking anyhow]

Loss of short term memory helps cover mistakes too.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Woody Turner]

Many thanks all around for the feedback. Many good suggestions and insights! I particularly liked the comments about strong beginnings and endings, as well as the warning about snowballing. Also, I enjoyed the link on Wagner and Beckmesser.

Let me segue to a related issue. Let's say you do finally achieve a certain level of technical and interpretive "mastery" during practice/rehersal. To what degree can you predict how well you'll actually perform in public? Do you go on stage a realist or optimist?

[JEStanek]

I feel that being optimistic translates into reality if you've practiced well and practiced like you will play on stage. I don't play on stage but I read in public often and lead training classes. I find when I've practiced and I believe I'll do well I will. If I worry about flubbing a hard bit, even joking about botching it, can make it more likely to happen. Attitude goes a long way.

Jamie

[allenhopkins]

Let's say you do finally achieve a certain level of technical and interpretive "mastery" during practice/rehersal. To what degree can you predict how well you'll actually perform in public? Do you go on stage a realist or optimist?
I used to use the rule of thumb (which may have been, as the Magliozzi Bros. say, "unencumbered by the thought process"), that I could do in live performance about 75% of what I could do in my best rehearsal.

So I'd pace myself, set tempos and lay out set lists accordingly. And I echo what some other posters have said: audiences don't necessarily demand letter-perfect perfection. They like energy, accessibility, and a feeling of rapport with the performer.

This may not be quite as true in classical music, where virtuosity and adherence to the "music as written" is more valued. Still, even there, a performer who relates well with the audience is likely to be given more latitude, and forgiven the occasional error here or there.

[twaaang]

I'd call it just perfect if I forgot about any technical measurements, but played a tune I love in a way that conveyed to the listener why I love it. If I find that I'm wrestling with it like we're opponents, something is lost. -- Paul

[Chippsta]

Beautiful, Paul !! Just Beautiful!
Love the tune and show those who really listen why you love it! I find that an audience can give me energy and take my playing to another level with more energy and passion. Not everyone is like this unfortunately. My brother in law has written hit songs and plays very well in his living room and in a small setting among family and friends. Put him in front of a crowd of strangers and he knots right up! I'm the same way in a studio when there's an engineer and producer giving me the 'one more time' sign and suddenly i start 'thinking' about what i'm playing and my fingers turn into toes and my eyes cross up and my voice turns into an awful screeching nasal witches howl! Admittedly this has only happened to me a dozen times and i really haven't spent enough time in the studio to get "over the hump" to where i know how to enjoy it. I know how to enjoy a crowd of strangers and feed off their energy. They are there to enjoy themselves. It's kind of like my mother told me years ago "Son, if you didn't make those awful faces, i wouldn't know when you made a mistake!" Don't let the crowd see you sweat ... help them enjoy what you're doing and enjoy the moment! It's all about enjoyment.

[makoto]

Performing seems to me to be a skill in itself. Some famous piano teacher (I cannot recall her name at the moment) said that most mistakes are the result of a lack of attention. I have always tried to be as prepared as possible for any performance, including thoroughly memorizing the piece and practicing it slowly and precisely, but when I step on stage before a performance I forget all of that and just play in the moment as much as possible.
It is kind of like training for a fight; you practice your techniques until you don't have to think about executing them, but when you step into the ring if you try to think which technique to use and when to use it, you will soon be lying flat on your back watching stars and little birdies circle your face.

[Dan Adams]

I like the theory stated earlier in the thread, if you have a good time and the audience has a good time than the performance is a success.

What makes live music so fun to perform and to listen to is all the mistakes. Live music breathes, tempos change, volume will go in and out, etc... Dan

[Paul Kotapish]

Perfection doesn't enter into for me, but there are nights when it feels perfect despite any glitches in technique or technology.

It's rare that my performances in front of a microphone match the best that I can do in an ideal rehearsal from a technical standpoint, but musically, it's almost always better. I love sharing the tightrope with a crowd, and if I am focused and relaxed, it's the second best thing I ever do.

On stage I try to forget the details that might be stumbling blocks and keep my mind focused on the big picture of the soundscape and on the rhythm in general and on my timing in particular. I reckon I can still make good music as long as the structure hangs together and the groove is right. A few clams or clangors rarely bother me--or the audience--but getting lost or breaking the rhythm is always distracting. Even getting lost can be fine if it's mindful and used as an opportunity to explore.

It helps to play with a bunch of folks you trust and to love the music for its intrinsic merits.

[mandopete]

My definition of perfection on stage? Nice and level with no potholes.

[Jeff Hildreth]

One soulful note, just one soulful note

that's all it takes

and most performers are so busy giving quantity, or so self indulgent they lose track of the music