It ain't happened yet - whats your experience

[Ron Cain]

I've often heard "What Goes Around Comes Around" but this has not been my experience when it comes to getting help from someone about mandolin playing technique, ect. Most everyone I have encountered who I thought was an accomplished player was more interested in making a buck. The few "lessons" I have paid for would have been better spent for fast food. Admittedly I am not the most outgoing person, I have a little trouble approaching people about this, but nobody has ever come close to showing any interest in offering any help without wanting paid. I have attended a lot of festivals and jams with the same results. I'm not looking for a free meal, just wandering what your experience might have been.

[JGWoods]

My experience is that people are always willing to spend a minute and give pointers as long as they have a minute to spare.
I asked a fine professional guitar player once to show me Joseph Spence's Great Dream From Heaven- he sat right down and played it while I filmed using my digital camera - it came out great...still wish I could play that tune so well.

I can pick up a lot of stuff just by watching, and more often than not a pointed question posed about a specific thing, a phrase or fingering, will be happily answered. I don't ask for free lessons, they don't offer paid ones.

[mandroid]

Music as a business is the game, since the victrola was invented, and the piano left the home parlor.

maybe start a mutual self help jam, right where you are.

I have been playing alone mostly as my own audience for 30 years.

for the same reason, sellers market except when I try to sell then its a yardsale offering http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[JoeD]

My experience has been that the most valuable thing I could do is find a few good picking buddies. I started off as the worst person in the group, took my lumps, practiced a lot, hosted jams, told bad jokes, paid for beer, played a lot of atrocious breaks, and accepted that getting good at this stuff will take a long time. Meanwhile, while I've been waiting to get better, I made some good friends and heard a lot of great music. Now I can proudly say that I'm only the second worst person in the group. <g>

Seriously, it's a long-term deal, and there's no overnight approach to getting better that I've found. Practice like the dickens, put yourself out there, and enjoy the ride.

[John Flynn]

I have run through about 7 or 8 instructors over the years. They seem to fall into two categories, in my mind: Tune teachers and technique/theory teachers. Each kind will tend to do a little of what the other side does, but not a lot. I have yet to run into anyone who really does both well. The tune teachers are more fun and give you something you can use right away, which is not all bad. The theory/technique teachers are more serious, which means you have to be more serious (and dedicated) also to get anything of value, but the value you get can be applied to a lot in the long term.

The best tune teacher I've had was Jeff Miller of St. Louis. His teaching was just: "I play, you listen and watch. Then you play." He turned me on to old-time fiddle music on the mandolin and I got competent on about 60 tunes in 6 months with him, most all the standards. His teaching really improved my ear also and he threw in some technique stuff along the way.

The best technique teacher I've encountered was Jody Stecher, who is a fairly well known player nationally. I only had one lesson with him, but it was very valuable. He said, "Play something for me that you feel is easy to play. Then play something for me that you are struggling with." I did both. Then he said, "Here's what you need to work on, and here's how you should work on it..." The two things for me were pick directon and pick grip. He showed me ways to improve in those areas. It was by far the most valuable hour I have ever spent in mandolin instruction.

I keep looking to recreate those experiences in instruction. When I find them, I will definitely take full advantage of them. Until then, I will keep looking.

[Khmando]

As a player, I have found both people who are generous and not so generous with their knowledge. I think it just depends who you run into.

As a teacher, I have found that, as the years have gone by, I have had to set very clear boundaries. I had one guitar student a while back. Since I didn't always have a student after her, I would give her longer lessons. She had more than her share of 1 1/2 hour lessons (while only being charged for 1 hour). Then one day she didn't show up for her lesson. I called her. She had no excuse other than, "I forgot." Since it was a same day cancellation, I charged her. She got upset with me. She seemed to have forgotten all the free time I gave her. Lesson learned on my part. After that, with any student, one hour is what they get. No more (but also no less). I am more than willing to go the extra mile if the student shows the willingness, but I also don't want to be taken advantage of for my generosity of time.

[jaydee]

I know what you mean. I keep hoping that someone will paint my house just to help out, but all the painters I talk too want me to pay them. I can't believe it!

Sorry to sound so flip here, but I'm hoping to make a point. It's one thing for a player to refuse to share a quick pointer or two. In my opinion that's rude, and a true pro will understand that a few quick tips are a great way to start a teacher/student relationship and will gladly share whatever time they have to help out a little. If they refuse to help, then I say bad on them, but that is their professional decision.

I'm assuming that you're talking about pro's here and not about accomplished amateurs. If the amateurs around you refuse to be helpful, then I suggest that you find a nicer bunch of people to hang around with. The jam idea that mandroid suggested is a great one.

On the other hand, if you're hoping that a professional player will reserve time for you, then you're way off base expecting it for free. It's not easy to make a living as a musician and those that have the skills need to capitalize on them in whatever way they can. When I read in your original post that the players you speak to are more interested in "making a buck" I interpret that as them being interested in "paying the rent" or "buying groceries". Don't take it personally, but understand that you're asking someone to give away their professional services for free. It can be insulting when you do that, and that devaluation of a musician's skill is a big part of why it's only getting harder to be a full-time professional musician. When you expect something for free that implies that you think it's worth nothing.
Jeremy

[James P]

I had a guy who'd just jam for an hour while I comped. At the end of that hour I'd pay him and go on my way. It was worth every penny too.

[allenhopkins]

J-R --

Sorry that you've had negative experiences. For what it's worth, mine have been much different. I've met many accomplished professional, semi-pro and amateur musicians, and most have been generous in sharing their time and their ideas.

I might suggest that, if you attend festivals where workshops in playing technique are offered, that these offer a good opportunity to pick up pointers, and to be exposed to a variety of styles and approaches. Also, there are camps and weekends where mandolin players attend, and exchange musical ideas on both a formal and an informal basis.

Of course, one does have to pay for festivals, camps and weekends, but it's not the strict so-many-dollars-for-so-many-minutes approach of individual lessons. It's been my experience, as a musician and sometime teacher, that much of the best information exchange occurs in an informal setting, where people of approximately equal skills sit around playing together, and showing each other what they know.

A lot has to do with how you approach these people (which you admit having "a little trouble" with). If you make it sound like you're after a teacher/student relationship, you can't fault people who teach to support themselves, from seeing this as a potential commercial arrangement. If you act like a fellow musician who has a question about this or that aspect of the other musician's playing, I think you'll find that most will be willing to show you a thing or two. How much of their time you take up, and how receptive/appreciative/collegial you appear to be, are also factors.

Part of me wonders if you've just been "talking to the wrong people," but since my experience has been so much different, I wonder if how you approach them hasn't made some of the difference.

[swampy]

My experience has been just the opposite. While at many jams, or get-togethers, people were happy to show me licks, give me pointers, or just replay certain parts of tunes I wanted to hear again. On the other hand, I didn't ask them to walk away from what they were doing and spend 20 minutes with me. One guy who is an exceptional fiddler and mandolin player taught lessons for free. I mean he would actually refuse payment. "Just come by the house and we'll play." He seemed offended by the thought of taking money for sharing his musical knowledge. The few lessons I actually have taken over the years were never as productive as the jams or pickin' parties I've been to. Something just seemed sterile about sitting in a little room going over the minutia of music. Just my 2 cents.

[Greg H.]

I think it largely depends on what kind of help you're asking for. If you're new to the mandolin and are asking for tips on just how to play it then you may be expecting a bit more that would usually be reasonable. In first learning the mandolin a series of structured lessons from an experienced--even if they don't seem at first to be taking in the direction you think you should go--would be well advised. If you're already reasonably accomplished (i.e. can play fairly comfortable and can learn by watching) then your eyes and ears can teach you a great deal. Thare are lots of people willing to play something for you or give a tip on how to get this or that tone, but to teach you how to play a tune note by note as asking quite a bit. I don't think I've ever jammed with Cafe member AlanN without picking up something new (be it a new tune or a new techinque). But, the caveat to that is that he'll show me the chords and play the song for me (or just be using a given technique in one of his breaks) and it's then my responsibility to go learn the tune or apply the technique.