Chords in songs

[bshpmark]

This is a beginner question so please bear with me. Is there a way to know which chords are generally going to be in a song if you know the key signature? I have been playing about a month and a half now and am trying to train my ear by playing along with CD's if I can. I have found that there are a few songs that I can easily figure out the chords for. With others, I can figure out two or three of the chords but have a real problem getting the one or two that I am missing. I have downloaded the Transcribe software but it seems to always have a problem finding just the chord I am missing.

I know that songs can be played in different keys.

I hope this question makes sense.

I was able to go to my first jam session last Tuesday evening and could actually chord along with many of the songs. The fellow leading the session was kind enough to tell me what chords would be in many of the songs. What a great time!

[Jim Broyles]

Yes, you can determine what chords will likely be in a song by looking at the key signature. The first thing to do is to learn the major scales and all the chords formed from the notes in the scale, then learn the degrees of the major scale. do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do conforms to 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, which is 1 again. The chords with the roots being the 1(do), 4(fa) and 5(sol) degrees of the scale are major, and these are the chords which are likely to be in I'd guess 80% of the songs you'll play at a jam. If you know the notes on your fretboard, you can play the scale and when you get to fa and sol, play the major chords which are named by those notes. You already know the do chord, so now you'll have all three. The other degrees of the scale are roots for minor chords, so if the 1, 4 or 5 don't fit, try minors of the 2, 3 and 6 notes. The seventh is diminished and will probably not be in most songs you'll play at a jam. I highly recommend getting hold of a theory book and learning how notes form chords and how chords form songs. This is a quick version and I hope it helps somewhat.

[Philphool]

What jbmando said.
Plus, if you're playing old time fiddle tunes and can't quite figure out a chord, try the II(major) or the bVII. They show up in quite a few tunes.

I.e. G C G A D is a common progression.(the A is the II)
And "old joe clark" in A will use a G (the bVII), as will some of the hornpipes.

Phil

[cooper4205]

just to add to jb's post on deducing which chords a song might have, the flat 7 (F in the key of G) seems to be a pretty frequent off chord in bluegrass tunes (Little Maggie, Bluegrass Breakdown, Body and Soul) along with the 2 chord (A in the key of G) - major not minor (Little White Church, This World is Not My Home, Summertime is Past and Gone, etc.)

hope that's helpful

[JeffD]

This might be of interest.

You just dial in the key signature and it tells you the chords.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=50659 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=50659)

[mandolirius]

I'm going to offer a simpler explanation, based on common chords in bluegrass/country/folk/blues/oldtime etc.

The most common chords are the 1, 4 & 5. In the key of "C", that's C,F,G.
The 2 chord is also common, either major or minor, so D or Dm.
The 6 chord, mostly minor but can be major is used fairly often (A/Am).
What is called the flat7 chord, Bb in the key of C, is used a lot.
You will sometimes hear a 3 chord, a B in this case.


So in "C", F/G/A/Am/Bb/B/D/Dm would be the chords I'd most expect to see. Some of these chords may appear as major or minor 7ths.

No theory here, just a list of the usual suspects. Happy hunting!

[mandroid]

And # is added to the 7th step of the scale

in the circle of 5th, starting with G
those, not a coincidence i think, are the strings
on your mandolin.
G1,F#- D2,C#F#- A3,G#C#F#- E4,D#G#C#F#

That maintains the 1/2 step, (minor 2nd interval), between 3/4 & 7/8 of the Major scale.

The 3 chords 1st 4th &5th in the 3 notes that make up the chord in those 3 chords all 7 notes of the scale are used.
key C as example: I/1 ceg IV/4 fac V/5 gbd [V7 gbdf]


That is why so many 3 chord songs work so well.


12 keys, wonder if someone clever has set a music key signature theme lyric to 'the 12 days of christmas'

[kudzuklunker]

Hi Mark. I know where you're coming from. I don't know what your musical background is but if you are just beginning, you're probably lost with the technical stuff, the 1,4's and such. I know I am. The thing that has helped me is simply to learn the tunes. I make every attempt to attend all the jams I can and to play as much as possible, even if it is in a far away corner. You can usually bet that if a tune is in G, then C and D will be there. A, then D, and E will be there. I don't know what type of music you are playing, I am assuming bluegrass. I have found that once you feel comfortable with a few tunes, most will come as you pick up the tune. Don't rush it. Good luck with the learning process, I hope it comes easier for you than it has for me.

[Jim Broyles]

I'm going to offer a simpler explanation, based on common chords in bluegrass/country/folk/blues/oldtime etc.

The most common chords are the 1, 4 & 5. In the key of "C", that's C,F,G.
The 2 chord is also common, either major or minor, so D or Dm.
The 6 chord, mostly minor but can be major is used fairly often (A/Am).
What is called the flat7 chord, Bb in the key of C, is used a lot.
You will sometimes hear a 3 chord, a B in this case.


So in "C", F/G/A/Am/Bb/B/D/Dm would be the chords I'd most expect to see. Some of these chords may appear as major or minor 7ths.

No theory here, just a list of the usual suspects. Happy hunting!
Just to clarify, the 3 chord in the key of C is E, not B. I was not trying to give specific chords to the OP, but rather to give him the information needed to determine the chords on his own. Any time you name chords by numbers you are getting into theory.

[Jim Broyles]

Hi Mark. I know where you're coming from. I don't know what your musical background is but if you are just beginning, you're probably lost with the technical stuff, the 1,4's and such. I know I am. The thing that has helped me is simply to learn the tunes. I make every attempt to attend all the jams I can and to play as much as possible, even if it is in a far away corner. You can usually bet that if a tune is in G, then C and D will be there. A, then D, and E will be there. I don't know what type of music you are playing, I am assuming bluegrass. I have found that once you feel comfortable with a few tunes, most will come as you pick up the tune. Don't rush it. Good luck with the learning process, I hope it comes easier for you than it has for me.
If you know that a song in the key of G will have C and D, you are already using theory whether you are aware of it or not. There is a reason why there will be C and D in a song in G and it is because the notes of a major scale are always arranged with the same intervals between them, and the relationship of one note to another within a scale is always the same regardless of the key. My suggestion is to learn the basics of theory, so that no matter what the key, you will be able to determine the probable chords in a song. There is no reason but lack of knowledge to be "lost with the technical stuff, the 1,4's and such." This is easily remedied with a little bit of effort.

[Jim Broyles]

And # is added to the 7th step of the scale
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but # is not added to the 7th step of the scale. The 7th step of the scale is always 6-1/2 steps higher than, and 1/2 step lower than the root. If nothing is done to change the pitch of the 7th degree, it is called the Major 7th. This is because the flatted 7th, also known as the dominant 7th, is the one which is called merely "7th," leading to possible confusion among those new to theory and harmony. In the key of C, B is the major 7th, and this is the 7th degree of the C major scale. The flat 7th is Bb, a note which does not appear in the C major scale, but a C7th chord will have C, E, G and Bb, whereas a Cmaj7 will have C, E, G and B.

[West]

Kudzuklunker: I think it's cool that you have intuited basic music theory!

[Andrew Lewis]

Another thing that might help you in a jam situation or when figuring out a song is to remember the mobility of chord shapes. Make sure you learn those moveable chord shapes. That way, regardless of the key you're in, you'll get used to hearing what the different changes sound like and can easily react by just sliding the moveable chords up or down. For example, if you're on the root chord and you hear the change go just a little lower, you can slide it down to the bVII. If the change goes up a bit, you might try the II by just moving the chord shape up two frets. Let's say you're in G, and you hear the change go almost to the IV chord © but not quite. Well, sounds like a III to me, so you play the same shape you might have used for the C chord but just a fret lower. Now it goes to the C? So just slide it up a fret. 2 more frets to get to the D. The more you play, the more you'll get accustomed to hearing the different changes and knowing what they are just by their sound. Eventually, you'll get where you can hear a song on the radio and tell exactly what the changes are without even having an instrument at hand!

The I, IV, and V will be your most common choices, and those are easy to hear. Your common minors will be the VIm and IIm and sometimes the IIIm. You'll get used to hearing what these sound like with a little experience. The bVII is pretty easy to hear, too, in time, as is the II and III. My advice is to use your ears to hear the movement.

Edit: Also, you'll get used to hearing what a chord with a 7th sounds like or a minor, so when you're learning those moveable chord shapes, be sure to note how those shapes can be tweaked to add a flatted 7th note or flat the 3rd to get a minor.

[mandolirius]

<Just to clarify, the 3 chord in the key of C is E, not B. I was not trying to give specific chords to the OP, but rather to give him the information needed to determine the chords on his own. Any time you name chords by numbers you are getting into theory.>

Argh! Thanks for the correction. And yeah, I should have said "not much theory", to be accurate. I've been involved in something called "slo-pitch" jams for so long I'm used to not thinking of chord numbering as theory. Maybe it has to do with the slo-pitch method of communicating chords, which is to have someone up with the jam leader "doing the numbers" with their fingers.

Anyway, I agree that the OP, or anyone would need to be able to work out chords on their own. I used an example key just in case chord numbering was new or unfamiliar. I have no idea what key the songs he's wanting to work out are in but it's unlikely they're all in "C". I hope you didn't take my post as a criticism of what you wrote. I just thought I'd put it another way. Sometimes hearing new ideas in expressed in different ways helps facillitate the understanding of them.

[bshpmark]

Thanks for the info so far. I ordered one of the Chord Wheels. I have a music background (trumpet) but I never paid any attention to chords and never took any music theory classes. I just took trumpet lessons and played. I only had to worry about 3 valves and what my ear could hear.

The whole I, IV, V is Greek to me. Well, not really, if it was Greek I could understand it, ha ha ha. My wife was a music major so I am going to have to ask her to sit down and teach me.

I am getting familiar with the fretboard and note locations and fortunately I could play by ear pretty well on the horn and I can sight read. I have been able to listen to some Bluegrass CDs and pick out the melody line on my mando on some of the easier songs. I just need the chord theory to fall into place and that coupled with about 10,000 hours of practice and I should be on my way...to more practice.

[Don Stiernberg]

where do those numbers come from?

There are 8 tones in a scale. in the simplest key, C, (no flats or sharps) that would be C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C.

Between E and F is always a half step. Also between B and C.

Each note in the scale can be referred to as a "degree". E for instance is the third degree of the scale.

Next we harmonize the scale. This is done by building chords at each scale degree. Rules for this are: use only tones from the scale, and...have them move in scale-wise motion.

A chord is three notes or more. A three note chord or group of notes is called a triad. The first one is C-E-G, which is C major. Now moving to the next degree in scalewise motion yields D-F-A, which is a D minor triad. If we continue this process, we get a golden mean pattern---the quality of the chords turn out this way in every major key:
One is major, two minor, three minor, four major, five is major(but worthy of more attention, hang on..) six is minor and also known as the relative minor...(think"Foggy Mt. Breakdown" or Blackberry Blossom") seven is not diminished but half-diminished(more coming for clarification) and eight of course is the same as one.

Here's our pattern in C:
C-Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bhalf-diminished-C

Next we make those four note chords. Same rules--all scale tones, scalewise motion. This yields the following:
Cmajor 7th-Dminor 7th-Emin7th-Fmajor7th-G7-Aminor 7th-
Bminor7flat5-Cmajor 7th.

Now at last the numbers! Roman numerals are used by the jazz guys, "Nashville number system"just uses regular numbers(I think)In the roman numeral system, upper case indicates major while lower case indicates minor. So now our golden mean pattern can be illustrated thusly:

I-ii-iii-IV-V7-vi-viim7b5-I

MOST COMMON CHORD SEQUENCES...here we go.

V7-I. V7 is called the dominant chord. it "dominates" the music because we have a physical relationship with its sound-we NEED to hear it resolve to I.G7 to C or D7 to G are examples.

I-IV-V7-I. This is the progression referred to above a few times. It is the basis for almost all American roots music: Blues, Bluegrass, Country, Folk, Rock. In classical music it is called tonic-subdominant-dominant. Tonic is the root or home chord, number I. Subdominant is a chord of preparation, leads us to the V or dominant chord. Phrases in the vernacular like "Three chords and the truth" or.."Sure, you know this tune, it's a three chorder" stem from this I-IV-V sequence. A sequence is often called a cadence. Think here of walking from chord to chord....a cadence..

I-ii-V7-I. In Broadway show tunes, jazz, and some contemporary pop tunes, the chord of preparation is the two minor rather than chord four. Of course those two chords are relatives. An example here would be C-Dm7-G7-C, as found in Satin Doll by Duke Ellington. Play G-Am-C, etc and your hearing the ii minor chord at work in John Hartford's Steam Powered Aereo-plane.

I-vi-ii-V-I. Blue Moon, You Send Me, loads of other "doo-wop" sounding tunes...(G-Em-Am-D7...)

Circle of fifths progression, a/k/a "cyclical dominants".
Examples here would be Sweet Georgia Brown, Don't Let the Deal Go Down, Alabama Jubilee, and the bridge or middle section to "I got Rhythm". Actually the circle of fifths(referred to also as "around the horn" or "turnaround")is only a section of each of these example tunes. For instance: Sweet Georgia Brown in F begins on F, moves to D7. There the fifths begin--D7, G7, C7, back to F.
D is the fifth of G, G the fifth of C, etc.
Don't let the Deal Go Down in G is the same pattern. From G we go to VI7(dominant six)in this case E7. That is a fifth of A7, which moves nicely(another fifth!) to D7, which of course wants to resolve to our home chord of G. HEY! Salty Dog Blues--samers!

I like the flat seven examples listed above. Others include Angel From Montgomery and Tangled Up In Blue from rock/pop,
and Live and Let Live and Love Come Home from Bluegrass.

There's your most common progressions! The numbers allow you to change them from key to key readily, with no capo.
Examples: The Bb scale goes Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb, so a I-IV-V
in this key is Bb-Eb-F7-Bb. In A where there are three sharps, a I-vi-ii-V7-I would be A-F#m-Bm-E7-A.

I hope some of these observations help dial in the names for the progressions you're hearing.You may want to write out the scale tones for commonly played keys, or all of them, then look for these patterns within each key. You already know what they sound like, now you're simply labeling or codifying them, but that helps in recognizing them and reacting at the jam session. Another good exercise is to pick 10 favorite tunes from your CD collection, listen and see if you hear any of the above progressions. If so, write them down...

Good luck and hang in there. Repetition of the concepts makes them quicker and more helpful.

[Jim Broyles]

... I have a music background (trumpet) but I never paid any attention to chords and never took any music theory classes. I just took trumpet lessons and played. I only had to worry about 3 valves and what my ear could hear.

The whole I, IV, V is Greek to me...
This is my beef with music teachers. I am in no way faulting you, but in my opinion, teachers who merely teach execution on an instrument do such a disservice to their students in the long run. There's no way I,IV,V should be Greek to anyone who has taken music lessons of any kind.

[bshpmark]

Thanks, Don. Really helpful info!

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

Excellent info (in a way I can understand it). Thanks Don.

[kudzuklunker]

Thanks mark for asking the question. I have printed this info and will use it to hopefully help me get the "big picture". I love the responses you all have given,even the ones with a touch of sarcasm. You all are great.

[mandolirius]

Re: Mr. Stiernberg's post.

That was a good lesson in how to explain those ideas in a relatively simple and accessible manner, especially to someone who wasn't familiar with the chord-numbering system.

In bluegrass circles, at least around here, it's not unusal to find players who know this system well, but none of the theory it's based on. The fact is, they just cut to the chase. They want to play and so there is a kind of editing process that filters out any info not pertinent to getting by in a jam. Later on, you find some of them going backwards and starting to fill in the theoretical holes. For example, they're often surprised by the dom7 as a five chord. They're used to it just being a major triad, without the seventh, as it's often played in bluegrass.

It's a lot like how many people get into bluegrass. They don't start with Bill Monroe or Flatt & Scruggs or even Del McCoury. Often it's Alison Krauss, or The Infamous Stringdusters or some other contemporary artist. Gradually some of them wind there way back through time and discover the earlier music.

I acquired the music theory I do know from the backwards, patch & fill method. Aside from the major scale, which I did get in school, I couldn't recognize any other scale. In minor keys I knew the third had to be flatted (couldn't tell you why) and everything else I just sort of made up and memorized the pattern of the notes. It wasn't very efficient, but it wasn't really meant to be. It was back-burner material, for sure. I was mostly caught up in learning how to physically deal with this instrument, right hand technique, rhythm and timing etc because I was already playing in a band. Learning vocal parts, writing tunes...there always seemed to be so much to do, not to mention booking gigs and all that.

Boy, this is getting long and I'm not totally sure where I'm going with it. I guess to say that, knowing what I know now, I wish I'd taken the time and enrolled in a basic theory class or taken lessons with someone. I realize it wouldn't have been that big a committment. I was kind of intimidated by theory and by people who knew a lot of it, especially if they were also good players. But I was making too much of it.

On the other hand, picking it up on an "as needed" basis hasn't been bad. One thing about that is that when you decide you need it, you tend to need it "yesterday", so I've had some pretty intense growth spurts. Once, I got asked to join a Django tribute band, never having played anything more elaborate than a dom7 chord. That's when I learned about chords. I knew some open chords and the chop. Barre chords I could play, but tended not to use much. That all changed in a heck of a hurry. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[John Gardinsky]

Another round of thanks to Don for his excellent explanation. It was concise and easy to comprehend.

[bshpmark]

Thanks to everyone for the info. I think the light bulb finally clicked on. I was able to figure out the missing chords to the CD songs I been listening too and was able to play along with them today. I also transposed several other tunes as well so that I could get the hang of the numbering system, using charts, etc., as well as figuring out what notes were in the chord.

I did order a couple of practical books though.

[mandolirius]

<Thanks to everyone for the info. I think the light bulb finally clicked on. I was able to figure out the missing chords to the CD songs I been listening too and was able to play along with them today. I also transposed several other tunes as well so that I could get the hang of the numbering system, using charts, etc., as well as figuring out what notes were in the chord.>

That's the kind of post I think everyone likes to see.

Well done! Welcome to the wild and wacky world of chords. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[david blair]

Yeah, what Don said. Have you all y'all? heard Don's Gershwin CD? Amazing. If you're reading this can we get any notation of those tunes, Don?

I would add that practicing those V1-11-V-1 changes in all the keys is an eye opener.
I have a question about minor keys. I gather the chords are different than the major modes listed above? Three types of minor patterns, and the demolished chord is the two for harmonic or melodic?
And are there any methods of predicting augmented, sustained, or 11th/13 chords?

One of my favorite tunes is Steamboat Whistle Blues by Hartford. Try it in C.
I- #vi-V-I , # I-vi- II-V, # IV-iii- ii- V, # #I- vi- V-I, # #I-iii- IV-V, # I-vi-V- I
C am G C # #C am D G # #F #em dm G # #C am G #C # C em F # G # C am G C

[Don Stiernberg]

David,

Thanks for your kind words. I did write one Mandolin Magazine column which focused on our arrangement of Gershwin's The Man I Love. I think the title was "Jazz in the bluegrass key of B", because we started in Bb then moved up a half step.
Hopefully you can find that column and find it helpful. Let me know if there are other specific tunes or changes that interest you, I may have the charts here in the "office"(read:piles of stuff). Our original goal was to honor Gershwin sheet music changes, and play verses to the tunes, not just refrains.We ended up moving things to keys that made the instruments speak better, using chord changes that lent themselves to jazz improvisation a little more readily, and we had to drop several verses so everything would fit on one disc!Still what you hear there harmonically is mostly Gershwin, and of course there are tons of published versions of those tunes...

I'd have to look up the harmonized minor scale. What's pertinent there is that in all 3 types of minor scales, the
two-five-one cadence can be thought of the same way:

iim7b5--V7alt--i. Example here in C would be

Dm7b5-G7b9-Cmin.
The min7b5 chord is also called "Half Diminished". It is symbolized in fakebooks by a circle with a slash mark through the circle. A plain circle as a chord symbol denotes a full diminished chord.

In minor cadences, the dominant or five chord SHOULD be altered.Alterations(also called "tensions")include the raised or lowered fifth and the raised or lowered ninth. (#5,b5,#9,b9)One alteration begets another, hence the use of the term and symbol "alt". In other words in the cadence above, one could play G7#5(augmented), G7b5, G7#9, G7b9--any would sound correct in that minor situation. A plain G7 doesn't include the same voice leading in the minor two-five-one.

When looking at fakebooks, if you see an altered dominant chord, chances are real good you're in a minor key area, and that chord of preparation(iim7b5)is close by.

Regarding your question about other color tones or tensions, perhaps these observations can help:

augmented(#5)chords are always dominant chords. They will be seen in minor cadences, and also in major cadences as a nice jazzy sub for the plain old V7 chord.

11ths and 13ths are color tones added to dominant chords. G13 functions like G7.

a major 9th is a nice color tone also for various types of chords. Dm7 can be played as Dm9. G7 can become G9. Their functions don't change.Raising or lowering that 9th is a different story, as discussed above.

sus chords are deceptive and can be confusing. Usually they also function as dominant chords, say Asus=A7. But that would be a sus4. The symbol also is sometimes used to indicate sus2, a contemporary sounding I major chord.
A11=A7. Bm11=Bm7sus4. So it's always good to look around the sus chord and see what else is going on. Usually the same two-five-one functions we're accustomed to are found..

Many of the Mandolin Magazine columns address iim7b5-V7alt-imin cadences and suggest scales and lines to play over them. In the current issue(on newstands today!)we look at that sound in Sweet Georgia Brown, where it goes A7-Dm....why not play Em7b5-A7b9-Dm?, and here are some melodic fragments that do that, etc.

Thanks everybody for the nice feedback. It's good to know these transmissions are landing and helping.

[Pete Martin]

For most folk music genres:

Most Common I IV V
Next Most Common (in no particular order) IIm IIIm VIm bVII
Others Used Less Often: II III VI (all these often dominant seventh)
Then the other chords, too numerous to mention.

If you can learn to play and hear the above ( I IV V IIm IIIm VIm bVII II III VI) you will go a long way to learning a lot of what you need.

For jazz there is a great Jerry Coker book called "Hearing the Changes" I would recommend.

Best of luck.

[Perry]

I just got that Chordwheel.com booklet after reading
about it in another post. I think it's fantastic.
What a cool idea to have a visual concept of the theory.

Between Mr. Stiernberg's great posts above and a visual refresher with the chordwheel us theory neophytes can be well on our way to understanding chord theory.

The Chord Wheel (http://www.chordwheel.com/) link in case you are interested.

[Bob Wiegers]

another shout out for the chord wheel. I stumbled on it at a local book store and snapped it up. I'm not very good at transposing, so it helps a lot with that too.

[Tom C]

It also ggod to know the relative minors whcih is the 6th.
So relative minor of G is Em, Relative minor of D is Bm. These are sometime substituted for the major chord.

Playing Sitting on top of the world...in "G" let's say
Some folks and a go a G7 before for C(4th -after the word "day" and also to the EM instead of G on the worry in "...and I don't worry".

Blues would go to the 7th. Old timey would probably stay on the G and go right to the C.

[Jonathan Peck]

No big hurry, but it's really important to know what the I, IV, V notes are in every common key that you plan in and where they are in relation to the root note. If you know this visual relationship (being tuned in fifths makes everything repeat in the same way no matter where you are on the instrument. Knowing these relationships/shapes will help you out alot. Once you can figure out the root note of a song, you can find the IV and IV without even knowing any theory.

Then you'll find that every now and then there'll be a curve ball, but bluegrass is like pitching, after awhile you'll know the heater is coming right after ball three. The old saying is "once you know both bluegrass songs, you know them all".

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the use of the seventh chord. Adding a seventh to a chord adds tension and indicates change (ie, I'm getting ready to move to the IV chord from the I chord). Until your ears get used to it, it can sound like a different chord that you can't figure out, but the only thing that changed is that the chord went from being made up of the root, third and fifth to a flat seventh being added to create the tension.