Stainless Steel Fret Wire

[Gavin Baird]

Just received a sample of SS Fret wire. It is the Banjo sized material. I know that Warmouth Guitars uses SS on some of their necks and encapusulate the fret tang in Cyano rather than driving them.
Any one thinking about trying it out? Let me know and
perhaps we can share info...Gavin
....The word is that they are good for the life of the instrument...

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

I've been playing with stainless fretwire. Its a soft alloy, easily dressable. Perhaps a bit harder to get a high polish on. A dremel and 1" felt wheel ought to do wonders in that respect tho (I've not tried yet).

Some small things to consider - its harder than wound strings. You can wear the windings thru if you leave the strings on long enough. It must be very carefully radiused as its pretty springy, far more so than standard fretwire. Warmoth presses all the frets, not only stainless. I dont see why you couldn't hammer stainless, but I like the idea of glued and pressed frets anyway. Hide glue rather than cyano for me though.

Also gotta say, I've never fretted a mandolin, only guitar... so your milage may vary.

[Gavin Baird]

I can't understand why no one has responded to this post. It seems to me that this is an obvious positive move in the right direction regarding the problem of fret wear. I suppose my question is, are there any builders out there who would like to investigate the pros and cons of using this system?...G

[sunburst]

Yes, I am interested in finding out about and experimenting with harder fret wire.
I hadn't posted because I have no experience with it.
I did give some samples of some old fret wire to a guy who was trying to get set up to make stainless wire, the older wire seems to me to be harder and longer lasting, so I gave him some samples to check the hardness, but never heard anything from him.

I usually use a fairly small wire for mandos, and would be interested in finding a similar size in stainless, as well as banjo and guitar sizes.

[Gavin Baird]

bandersnatch reverb
Check out the Warmouth site...they say that they use a custom Cyano to incapsulate the SS fret...G....and by the way, thanks for your input...The windings of the std. wound string is not the problem, it is the hardened E and A that causes the fret wear. Since most of the playing is done on these two sets, it would definately be an asset. The Stainless Steel that is used is non magnetic and is a 300 series which is quite tough and much more durable than a nickel brass alloy...G

[Gavin Baird]

Sunburst,
Check out Allied Lutherie...They have the item in Banjo size....Gav.

[Steven Stone]

I've discussed stainless fret wire at length with Ken Parker, of Parker Guitars.

He was the first to use it sucessfully and still has patents on it's use. To paraphrase Ken "If it is soft enough to form into tangs it's no better than nickle silver."

The only stainless that is hard enough to warrant its use CAN NOT be made into tangs, so it MUST be glued onto a phenolic fretboard.

[Gavin Baird]

Steven
I don't think the concept of being able to be formed into tangs is correct. "Nickel Silver" is " Copper = Zinc = a % of Nickel[18%] Stainless Steel is an Alloy of Iron, Nickel and Chromium in varring amounts. It doesn't seem to me that what you are saying is correct. In terms of wear resistance, Brass is very poor. With the addition of Nickel it becomes better. The wear on frets is not an abrasive wear but rather an impact reaction and I would suspect that a 300 series Stainless Steel would be far superior to a "Nickel Silver" alloy...Just my opinion..but I think it is worth the effort to check it out...G

[Brian Aldridge]

Gavin, I have a mandolin that has SS frets in it. I really don't see the string windings being cut more by the SS frets than regular frets have done. They do seem to be holding up better than regular frets, but I have not had the mandolin long enough to speak on that from experience yet. I suspect they will last much longer though. I hope the guy who installed them will speak up on this subject, as I am quite interested. I won't drag him into this by naming him though.

[dave waite]

I am not a builder or repair person, but as a player I am very interested in this thread. I find it hard to believe that there is not an improvement on the standard brass/nickel fret material. I don't buy the too hard to put tangs in, too springy, or too hard to form to a radius line. It just doesn't make sense. As far as excessive string wear.....Big deal. Strings cost under 10.00 a set for most they should be changed long before they wear through anyway. At 300 + shipping for a refret job every couple years, I for one will be looking for someone to go stainless for my next time around. Hope one of you knowlegable & capable fellows pursue this. I'll be watching! Thanks
Dave

[Steven Stone]

[I don't think the concept of being able to be formed into tangs is correct.]

Fine. According to Ken, he did the experiments and found that if the steel could be formed into tangs, it wasn't appreciably harder than the best nickle silver materials available.

But hey, don't listen to me - try it yourself. worst that can happen is that you waste a lot of time replicating Ken's research. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Michael Lewis]

Lets hear all about it. I'm in the same situation as Sunburst, no experience with it, but interested. Also interested in the old style material that was used by Gibson in the teens and twenties. It's not stainless but it is pretty hard and wears well.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

Gavin, I know the E and A (or any unwound string, a la gitfiddle... G B E) will wear nickel silver frets. What I was saying is now the frets wear the strings! With the soft windings being divoted by the stainless fretwire if you leave them on the instrument long enough.

http://www.alliedlutherie.com/fretwire.htm

Look there. Stainless fretwire has tangs. At least the stuff I got did. Also, springup is more of a problem with the wider and perhaps more radiused guitar necks. I dont think it would be such a problem with a stainless wire on a mandolin neck. However.... there is a growing school of luthery that supports pressed and glued frets as being a better way to go.

In that link above, it says that dressing and crowning are a pita. This is perhaps so, since my only experience called for just a bare kissing of the tops, and just a rounding over of the trailing edge and polish. I used 800 and 1200 papers for the polish. A lot of it. Dark abrasive on that felt wheel would have been better, but I didn't have and guards for the fingerboard, so it all got done by hand.

Thats it. One refret with stainless, I'm no expert, but I've got a little bit of experience with the stuff. BTW, you cant tell the difference when you're playing, its a non-issue.

[Brian Aldridge]

OK, here's a Q for those of you who are in the business of building/repair as a major or sole source of your income; Re-frets are a fairly common job, one that keeps recurring, and one that pays fairly decently (not complaining). Then you have the company that produces the fretwire. The old Gibson wire lasts many times longer that the modern wire. It seems that the companies who make the wire would be in a way cutting their own throats by making good wire that lasts. What impact would good wire have on a luthier's income? Would good wire be harder to work with? I am just throwing out some possible objections for us expecting to see better wire.

[Gavin Baird]

Michael,
The only non ferrous alloy I can think of being used in the early 20th century, would be Aliminum Bronze. I don't know if could have been roll formed or not. The stuff is very, very difficult to machine. One of its uses was to provide solid wear bearings on the ends of the railway axles, the main journal bearings being given abundant end play..G

[sunburst]

It seems that the companies who make the wire would be in a way cutting their own throats by making good wire that lasts. What impact would good wire have on a luthier's income? Would good wire be harder to work with? I am just throwing out some possible objections for us expecting to see better wire.
Harder wire would probably cut down on straight ahead fret jobs, but sometimes you have to refret in order to correct neck problems or to follow up other repairs, and that wouldn't change.
I've heard harder wire is harder to work with, so an up charge would probably be in order, partially offsetting the reduction in fret jobs, and besides, I can't imagine a time when there aren't plenty of fret jobs to be done.

I'm told that the main reason fret wire is not harder is because of the machinery used to manufacture it. As the material gets harder the machinery wears faster. The compromise is set for maximum machine longevity rather than for maximum fret longevity. Obviously, harder wire would have to be more expensive, but I'm sure I have a lot of customers that would be willing to pay the difference.

The guy I talked to and supplied with samples was experimenting with laser cutting of the fret wire, so the hardness might not have much affect on the production process. I suspect he's not having much success and that's why we're not hearing anything.

Regarding using adhesives or glues for fretting, that was sort of "all the rage" 10 or 15 years ago and has largely fallen from favor because those musicians with the golden ears claim to prefer the sound of standardly driven or pressed frets.
I'm pretty sure there would be those who could hear the difference and would prefer the softer fret wire for the sound as well.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

I dont know how many companies are actually making fretwire, as opposed to putting their name on it, but certainly, worldwide, there cannot be that many actual fretwire factories. On the other hand, build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door. A nice saying but what they left off is the part about how even a rumor of a better mousetrap will get a good size group of folks interested.

As far as I'm concerned... all fretting is a pain in the keister, so the stainless wire only changes what I already don't like to a matter of degree. If I dont have to REfret, then I'm ahead of the game.

[Mario Proulx]

I have zero experience with stainless frets, and am also curious.

But, I do have experience with metals and machining.

There are countless formulations of stainless steel, ranging from soft and maleable to extremely hard and unworkable.

Fret wire is manufactured by pulling a round wire through a set of dies to form the shape we know as fret wire.

The dies must be harder than the wire being drawn through them. There comes a point where with hard stainless, dies probably cannot be made hard enough without becoming brittle.

I believe what Ken Parker has found is that any stainless steel that is soft enough to be drawn provides no appreciable wear advantage when used as frets. In other words, if it's soft enough to be made into tanged fret wire, it won't be much harder than nickel silver fret wire.

I'm sure there's still more to it than that, but I'm also sure that covers the biggest reason for it.

Mario

[Gavin Baird]

I think what has to be kept in mind is that the wear on a fret is not abrasive wear but rather the impact of the string on the fret that causes the deformation. I suppose that the hardness is a critical factor to impact wear, however the ability of the alloy to resist this type of deformation is the critical factor as well as hardness. I am certainly going to try this material on my next fret job and while it may take a long time to give results they will be forth coming.
Something to consider is the method of securing the fret in place. The use of a Cyano acrylate adhesive is a good starting point. As you all know the material is extreemly hard when cured and as far as I know does not shrink. It is also heat sensitive so it can be removed with relative ease....Well worth the investigation...g

[Martin Jonas]

With this discussion, I was wondering whether it wouldn't be possible to use harder alloys for vintage-style bar frets compared to modern shape fret wire. The cross-section is much more regular and has no narrow protrusions. Of course, there may not be enough fretboards around any more with notches for bar frets to make it worthwhile to produce a hard bar fret wire.

Martin

[GTison]

not a luthier. but ... since the wear is mostly on the plain steel strings( E,A). does the hardness of the string affect the wear of the fret? Seems I read in FRETS mag. years ago that frets were made of material slightly harder than the string. But since GHS and other string mfg. make Stainless strings Shouldn't the frets be harder? As a player I do wonder about the sound though. My D strings currently do wear from contact with the frets if left long enough. Persue the idea of the stainless fret! We refret customers are ready. I've had my gibson for about a year and I can see the frets wearing a good bit under the E&A strings. So I am thinking about frets.

[Gavin Baird]

Not having a Rockwell Hardness Tester, I used the same concept to give some indication of the relative hardness between the SS fret wire and that of the 18% nickel brass.
In the photograph the SS wire is the bottom image. The photo is far from good but the indication is that the SS is the harder of the two.
What I used was a HSS spring loaded centre punch using the same setting for both...G

[Darryl Wolfe]

I can't add appreciably to this great thread, but here are some of my thoughts.

I have a brand new SS fret Warmoth neck on my Jazz Bass. #The frets feel great and ring brighter. #I see zero wear on fret or string yet, but it's a bit too soon to tell.

The old Gibson wire wears incredibly well.
I believe the material is the same as that used on the tailpiece covers and bridge wheels. #Original frets acquire a green and or yellow tarnish. #They sound much harder/clinkier when you drop them on a hard surface.

I have some nickel/silver-German Silver material that I am making tailpiece covers out of. #It's my understanding that there is actually no silver in it. That material seems to be much much harder than modern fret wire. #I'm thinking that modern fret wire actually has a high silver content in it.

I certainly think stainless steel would emulate the older fretwire and would be a positive move

Any feedback or correction to these observations

[Steve Stahl]

I have some nickel/silver-German Silver material that I am making tailpiece covers out of. #It's my understanding that there is actually no silver in it. That material seems to be much much harder than modern fret wire. #I'm thinking that modern fret wire actually has a high silver content in it.
Fretwire, often referred as german silver, actually contains no silver at all and it is manufactured from brass and nickel.
http://www.gitaarwerk.net/info.php?id=26

[Gavin Baird]

Darryl
I think that you will find that German Silver really does not have any silver in it at all. The term "Silver" I believe is that the alloy of copper and zinc, which is brass, with an addition of varying %'s of nickel, produce a stronger alloy and as well gives the polished surface a silvery colour. As I indicated in an earlier post, an alloy of copper, zinc, tin and the addition of aluminum produces just about the hardest alloy I know of in the non ferrous alloys.This is called "Aluminum Bronze".

[sunburst]

Original frets acquire a green and or yellow tarnish. They sound much harder/clinkier when you drop them on a hard surface.
Darryl,
I'm assuming those frets you are dropping are not in the Loar when you're dropping them http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif .

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

The green tarnish is the same yuk (verdigris) that you get on anything brass, and its the copper coming out of the metal in the presence of acid (ie, leather tanning acid, skin acid). If you're gettin' verdigris on the ol' frets, wipe that puppy more!

Course I'm not one to talk... you ought to see my old Strat... akk bad bad.

[tope]

The question is, where can I buy SS mando fret wire?
I haven't found it yet.

[sunburst]

Tope,
Gavin said Allied Lutherie has it.

I spoke with a customer a couple of days ago who is getting close to refret time and likes the banjo sized wire. I told him about the possibility of trying the SS wire and he's deciding.
I might have something to report when the time comes.

[tope]

Sunburst, The last time I talked to Allied they had guitar and banjo but no mandolin wire.

[Gavin Baird]

Tope,
Yes, that is all they have. It is referred to as FWSS stainless. I just received a shippment and it comes in a 19" dia. roll which allows you to re arch from approx. 8 1/2" rad up...G

[Luthier Vandross]

I have an electric guitar that was refretted by Sabine around.. 1985, with Dunlop 6105, and after thousands of hours, I just dressed them for the second time.

It's obvious to me, that the problem is the nickle content.

No reason to come up with new things, unless the old things change... modern alloys? Seems that some years, the wire sucks.

Stainless frets? None for me, thanks.

We had a dress job come in, guy said he 'thought' they were stainless.. he knew they were, ugly to deal with, at 3x the price.

M

[Gavin Baird]

Well, Well;
There seems to be a conflict of the application and the reasons for the use of SS fret wire.
There is a vast difference in fret wear between an Electric and a Mandolin. Just by virtue of their scale length and tension to resist fretting. The problem with most Mandolin players is that they seem to think that they need to really fret hard in order to get what they think is a clear note. In most cases with most players, this is correct. However, as a point of interest and support of the previously mentioned concept, I just had the opportunity of examining Peter Ostroushko's Mandolin that I built for him in 2000. Four years of playing and there was no significant signs of fret wear. He had me install 18% Nickel Brass Banjo frets. The secret is his ability to fret as he would if he was playing the violin or touching a delicate flower.
Now to stainless steel frets. For the vast majority of players of Mandolins, the fretting pressure is much too high and until they get that under control, refretting is to be expected. Stainless steel will at least prolong the time frame between fret jobs.
With regards to levelling and re crowning: It seems to me that the levelling process will be greatly reduced if attentiom is payed to the correct profiling of the fret board. Any re crowing should be easily done with a Diamond fret file and steel wool followed by a good abrasive polish[white jewellers rouge]....G..ps Luthier Vandross..You certainly do seem to have a great deal of experience in many subjects...g

[Luthier Vandross]

I do contracted repair, and building at Randy Wood's place, 80-90 hours a week, converting a '34 Martin C-2 into an OM-28/40 today, and watching Randy french polish one of his new ferns. ohmiegawd!

Besides being a road musician for 10 years, and an instrument collector for nearly 30, I also have about as much time as a professional tech on the road. I am lucky to be forced to do the things I love... AND all the other stuff too.. ;)


Miles

[Gavin Baird]

Well Miles
You certainly addressed my "ps" but not my post...G

[Luthier Vandross]

Point taken! I think! People press way too hard, for someone like Red Henry, it's half of his technique.. listen to him, the mandolin constantly screams -strangled mandolin voice- "HELP ME!!". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

My electric analogy was kind of spurious, because of the vibrato factor... mostly. I started out on that guitar with .008 sets, the refret, then .010 sets until about 10 years ago, then .011s.

I'd rather refret with something the next repairman will expect, and something they can all deal with. (hide glue, nickle silver frets.. etc.. it's not just traditional, it's standard.. if you know what I am sayin'.

We use banjo fretwire, but I prefer something with a little more height, and a tad more width. Many people want banjo frets, but they just haven't had a meeting with a larger set, crowned correctly.

In the world of the mandolin, it's competition with the world's loudest annoyance: The Banjo. When they make quiet banjos, the mandolin players will stop eating the frets off.

Did I miss anything?? What was the question? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

M

[nettleton]

I do know that nickel-silver is used my dentists when they give you fillings, and also to make the rivets for higher quality cutlery because it doesn't expand or contract, like a lot of metals. Thus, as fretwire, it'll keep from falling out of the fingerboard much more easily. Now stainless steel comes in all sorts of qualities and hardnesses, so it's impossible to judge whether stainless frets would be an advantage or not. Preferably you would use 440 A grade steel with a Rockwell hardness of 55-57 C, which is pretty much the perfect balance of durability and flexibility (a harder steel, of course, could be more likely to shatter). So that's a good place to start if anyone's thinking of actually speaking with a steel company about this. But the tangs would probably have to be molded rather than bent, and there's no chance of getting it for anywhere near the price of nickel-silver!

[Luthier Vandross]

We discussed this again at the shop today, and in the end, the consensus was that any of us would bet $100 that banjo fret on two mandolins, made from stainless, and high-nickle silver frets would wear out within a day of each other, if played 24 hours a day, seven days a week, by Red Henry.

I agree on the hardness, a machine shop would be lvl'n crn'n your frets, and God help you if you dent one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

"Hey Smitty, the guy on the phone says it's the fifth freck... or frep, or somthin' suposed to be smooth, and like fitty seben thou..? Or somethin'.. can we do frecks??

I'm not a gambling man, but if you are, my email is.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

M

[mandopixie]

I hunted for such a thread as this because I'm frustrated by the all too often recurring expense of refretting. The latest examples I have are my F5G; just come back to me with its first refret-one year after leaving the factory. My new Gibson 'Master' model came with narrower frets which after only TWO MONTHS are already showing serious wear. It won't make it to six months on these chocolate frets they install at the factory.
I can't imagine there being any warranty covering fret wear, but you can understand my frustration.
David Grisman uses only wire from the upper register of older Gibsons, which would be in keeping with whomever wrote about the older ones having harder alloy frets as OEM fitment.
Not having access to older mandolin fretboards, I also wondered about SS. Any luthier hired by me is surprised by how often I go through frets, but that only annoys me further. If SS is a 'goer' it really should be factory installed. There..I've put in my two cents-worth.

Thank you for your patience!

Paul

[Steven Stone]

[F5G; just come back to me with its first refret-one year after leaving the factory. ]

I had to replace the first five frets on my 2002 Fern after a year, but at the same time I had the nut set up properly.

Several good repair folks, who all play mando said that very often the reason people go through their fets on new mandos so fast is they never have their mandos set up right at the nut and end up using too much pressure, so they wear them down much faster than they should.

I've noticed that after the nut work I'm not grooving out the new frets nearly as fast as I did on the originals.

[mandopixie]

Thank you for your suggestion, Steven. I know about the (lack of) nut set up, which was much too high on the F5G, but couldn't have been any better on the Master, which plays as it should. I've also had the set up checked by my luthier, who gave it the 'thumbs up'.

[sunburst]

I talked to Frank Ford at the GAL convention. He's done about 4 fret jobs with SS, had no trouble using his usual tools, said it took him maybe 10 minutes longer.
He doesn't know if they'll last longer yet because it hasn't been very long since they were done.

[Michael Lewis]

I just did a fret job with stainless fret wire today, and nearly concur with what Frank Ford reported. I think it takes a bit longer than an extra 10 minutes, more like at least 30 extra minutes. This is using the wire from Allied Lutherie, some other wire may be harder which would take even longer.

Regular tools worked well, just took longer. You need to cut the frets very close to the finished length or you will be filing their ends for a long while.

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

OF course other SS wire might be easier too....

[Michael Lewis]

Softer wire would be easier to work, but would likely wear out faster. As I understand it the harder wire should wear longer, we'll see.

[krishna]

Gavin,I came across a site about 5 months ago you should take a look at before you do anything.( is it too late allready..)I can`t find it. Anyway #he was a builder and tech,had done a lot of refrets with SS and said it not only ruined his tools,but also made his electric guitars sound so brite ,he had to do work on the tone pot of all the guitars he did it to.He also said he had a few come in for fret dress and he would no longer use SS frets or dress them.....I just spent about 45 min looking all over for the site.Man somesimes this internet thing is SO frustrating...It was such a HUGE site too...####!

[AeroJoe]

Would it be an infringment on Parker Guitars if someone built a mandolin with a solid fretboard, and installed tangless stainless steel frets on/over the proper positions?It's not like it's a completely new invention, (thus a patent) just a different way of installing frets, and frets of a different metal composition...I'm just curious, I could be wrong on that...

Also, banjo player Jody King (NC) was offering SS fret service on banjos on his website the last time I saw it (quite a while ago...) I think the price was $500 and something to the effect of 'that's the last fret job you'll ever have to have'...

Lastly, a local picker had the late Craig Hoffman of Raleigh, NC (who was of the widen the slot, glue the frets in method) put /electric bass frets/ in his RB-250...this was done over ten years ago...the thing has never had the first dressing yet. Imagine that...no wonder.
No, I don't think for a moment /that/ would work on a mandolin, but I feel for those that buy very high end mandolins, but have to have those tiny frets replaced so quickly...

I think I also read in a back issue of "Frets" that you can actually make fretwire somewhat harder by bending it...did I read that correctly or is that incorrect?

This is a great topic...I'm learning alot from it...I had always wondered if this would ever be an option for mandolins since I first heard of the Parker "Fly" Electric Guitar.

You guys that have tried SS frets on mandos, keep us posted...

[sunburst]

I think I also read in a back issue of "Frets" that you can actually make fretwire somewhat harder by bending it...did I read that correctly or is that incorrect?
There's been speculation that you could "work harden" fret wire by bending it.
Bending or hammering or otherwise working metals does harden them. (I don't know if that's all metals.) Whether or not that translates to longer fret life seems to me like speculation.

I've talked to several machinists about making a fret bender sort of like the one Stewmac sells, only with the ability to bend the fretwire backward first, then bend forward for a radius board. That should harden the wire, but who knows if it would last longer?

[krishna]

Gavin, the site I was looking for was the guy who bought all the American B.C.Rich unfinished factory bodied and parts. His company refrets and builds hundreds of guitar a year,and if you were able to find and read his posts ,I;m sure you would have info that you do not allready have. I think , from reading all of this thread, that the SS fretwire his shop was useing must have been harder than what is being talked about here. He said 2 refrets and with dressing,and his tools would have to be replaced. Kerry

[Bandersnatch Reverb]

>> There's been speculation that you could "work harden" fret wire by bending it.
Bending or hammering or otherwise working metals does harden them. (I don't know if that's all metals.) Whether or not that translates to longer fret life seems to me like speculation.<<

Ferrous metals do not work harden. They are hardened by heating to a certain temperture (depending on the alloy and hardening process), followed by rapid cooling. There are literally 1000's of heat treatment processes all involving heating, cooling, perhaps reheating, immersion in black carbon, certain gasses, immersion in oils, brine, cold gasses... you name it... its a witches brew of scientific art.

Non ferrous metals will generally work harden to some extent. In fact its common when working with brass and copper to heat/quench it to soften (anneal) it to keep it pliable. Aluminum is in a world by itself. It work hardens, but can also be heat treated or annealed. There are some special properties with the metallic (crystaline) structure of aluminum alloys that made them unlike cupric or ferrous alloys.

Nickel-silver is a cupric alloy, and the process of making it into fretwire work hardens it. How hard? Depends on the alloy and how hard they worked the material in order to get it into the wire shape.