Why do we need set ups?

[Tim2723]

I originally posted this question in another thread, but rather than take that one off-topic, I'll ask it here.

It has always seemed curious to me that all mandolins, from Festival Pack MKs to $10,000 masterpieces are recommended to have a professional set up before they reach their potential. Why is it that manufacturers ship the instruments in this 'incomplete' form? To me that is akin to buying a new car, be it a low end Chevy or a Mercedes, and having to get a mechanic to adjust every major system before the car will perform. I know car dealers do make adjustments to new cars before they're sold, but not to every major system for every automobile. It doesn't make much sense to me. In the other thread I started this in, a very respected and knowledgable member stated that the basic work needed took a couple of hours. If it can be done in a couple of hours, then why not just do it at the factory? For low end imports the labor would cost a few extra dollars, and even for high end instruments it couldn't add more than a hundred or so dollars to the final price. I for one would like the product to work perfectly from the beginning rather than have to track down and pay an expert capable of fixing something that shouldn't need fixing.

I'm not questioning the need to have set ups done. It's common knowledge and good, time-tested advice. I'm asking why it has to be done as a seperate service. My television worked perfectly right out of the box. It needed to be programed, but not 'fixed' in any way. Compared to my mandolin, its an infinitely more complicated machine. My TV receives sound and pictures from satelites in outer space. My mandolin is a wooden box with wires on it.

What am I missing in this? Is it that the set up is likely to change before the mandolin is purchased? If set ups change that much, why do we not need to recommend having a set up done every six months or so?

[Bradley]

Tim

This has been a much talked about topic here on the Cafe
and has open some good flames at times too.

Primarily most of the higher end Mandolins will come set up from the factory (the well known makers) This set up would be fine for most players but the ones that have very high standards wanted it a little more perfected.

Kinda like when you buy a suit coat...That 46R size normally fits me but if I were buying a high dollar Armani Suit I would definitely want it tailor fit to my exact measurements. With each mando we all like higher or lower action..some play heavy strings while others play light strings..etc.And more in line with your question they do change a bit from the factory when new, and being shipped thru various climates and conditions

Most if not all of the Major makers will make sure that your Mando is right and will bend over backwards to make it right for you.

[Richard Russell]

I share some of your frustrations with the setup issues that some mandolins have. It seems that, at least from my limited experience in player new instruments off of the wall at music stores, many of the higher priced, better built instruments are much closer to being setup to play than the starter models, or perhaps I could say better than the imported low-end models. The common problems seem to be high action at the nut as well as fret issues (uneven frets if you sight down the fretboard). The manufacturer could spend a little time to work these issues out and it would help out both the potential buyer as well as the shop selling the instrument. I don't have a problem with too high or too low adustable bridges, or even intonation - I will always set those myself. I good shop should set those correctly as well.

Another thing with setup: individual preferences. Some players like a low action, some high, for example. So, the manufacture leaves it up to the player to work this out. Not a bad idea. Ok with me, but, ideally the instrument would come at least "reasonably" setup, so that playing is a joy, not a strain on the fingers.

[Tim2723]

Thanks Both. #I can see the issue with fitting a suit off the rack. #But with so many mandolins we recommend some changes that just don't seem like they should have to be made. For instance, adjusting string height at the nut. #With the exception of using different gauge strings than the manufacturer designed for, shouldn't the nut be correct when received? #If the slots are too shallow for the intended strings, then that's a problem at the factory, isn't it? #Another thing that's always recommended is that the bridge be fitted to the top. #What other product would we accept that needs a major component to be fitted in that way? #"I'm sorry Tim, but it seems that the engine of your new car doesn't quite fit under the hood." #What?!

I think I'm trying to say that there's a difference, at least in my mind, between custom modifications and improperly manufactured goods.

[steve in tampa]

I have several instruments,buy and sell, etc., and, over time, developed a good relationship with a couple of local luthiers. They have, in addition to setting up and repairing the instruments, educated me on the different aspects of the instrument. It's like knowing a good and trusted mechanic.

[Folkmusician.com]

Hi Tim,


I will take a shot at this. These are just my opinions, don’t get out the noose. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The instruments do change. #Ocean freight is just about the worst thing that you could do to a wooden instrument. Before they hit the water they have to be consolidated into containers. Since most companies will not be receiving a whole container of mandolins, other products are combined with the shipment. All the instruments may go to a warehouse and wait until there are enough to fill a container. #This is not always the case. # A properly humidified instrument can survive limited exposure to harsh condition without problems. #Here we are talking about quite a few weeks. The instrument will go through changes during this period. #This means that the instruments cannot be setup to tight tolerances overseas. Many of the instruments do get some level of setup work from the factories.

The second factor is really about pricing. The average consumers shops for price above all else. Lower priced instruments take the market share. Your average buyer will not pay $50 more for the same instrument setup properly, and sure won’t pay $100 more. I run into this daily, when customers try to haggle $20-$30 off the price and ultimately go buy from someone that is not doing any setup work. #In the end they hurt themselves. #They would have gotten a better deal if they purchased my mandolin. #It is just a lack of education or experience with the instrument. Of course this is not everyone and certainly not the average Mandolin Café reader. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

What I notice from our suppliers… # #many do make an effort to do the setup work. #It is just not their expertise. #It may be the size of the companies that cause the problem. When companies get big, your average luthier/musician is not qualified to hold a high level position, let alone run the company. They hire qualified CEOs, Purchasing agents, etc.. Now we have management that does not understand instruments all that well, but does have the ability to dominate the market. #That is one theory I have. Theories aside, the suppliers regularly ask their biggest dealers what they can do to improve. I always have a lot of requests, but never do I ask for improved setup work. #In fact, I usually ask that they leave the instruments alone so that I can do it. I personally prefer that the prices remain lower and there be no setup work. #If they did set them up, I would just redo it anyway, so I sure don’t want to pay for it. And there are many times that a less than perfect setup causes me major issues. A good example is when a nut is too low. There are also a lot of dealers that could care less if the instruments play right. #They just want the lowest possible price. In both of these cases, the supplier is doing what they are asked. #

I occasionally see the factory setups improve for a short period of time and then head back downhill. #I guess there is a high turnover rate for the employees. #Setups are best left to the dealer. In the violin world, it is normal for all setup work to be performed by the dealer. It really should be this way with fretted instruments as well and with some brands such as Morgan Monroe and a handful of others, this is how it works. What I think should happen is that dealerships should not be handed out to unqualified companies.

Lastley, #string guage, playing style etc, do come into play. #Many players would customize the setup anyway.

When you move into the higher end instruments, they typically do good factory setup work. It is mostly the lower priced imports that have this problem.

If a mandolin remains in a stable climate very little changes. If it travels around on tour and or the climate is not stable, then they do need regular setup maintenance. #Touring bands bring along guitar techs for this very reason. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[JEStanek]

I like the suit analogy. Regardless of price point a suit will need a little tailoring to get it to its best. With regards to mandolins, I'm curious how much time after they are finished do they sit in the shop (import factory ones I'm not including - see below) before being shipped to a customer. Same thing with a custom build by a luthier? Will the wood change under tension and everything in those first weeks /month after completion that some tweaking down the line may be in order? I'm guessing so.

Certainly, seasonal temperature and humidity variations can impact an instrument in it's first year of life too. These changes can impact any number of systems on the instrument; soundboard height and curvature, nut position, bridge shape under tension over time, fret position in the fingerboard. If any or any number of these items get are affected in that early time, they will need adjustment.

I think some things like bridge fitting and median nut height are details that get lost in large scale production operations. The additional labor isn't justified, and the instruments will likely be shipped with the bridges off to boot. Unlike a car, mandolin components aren't welded or bolted on. And the mandolin components have less tolerances and more likelihood for movement than car parts (at least assembly line cars).

I would imagine if a car were built single handedly by a single "car-ier" it may need more shop adjustments than your typical assembly line car. How many mandolins have rolled over on you during a tight turn in the music? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jamie

[Tim2723]

Thanks much everyone! That answers my questions nicely. And thank you too Robert for reposting your reply in this new thread. I hate hijacking other threads.

[MikeEdgerton]

That doesn't mean that one cannot become adept at doing setups for themselves. There are things I take to a few local luthier friends that I am not comfortable with but most things I do myself. That's not taking anything away from the big guys, they know their stuff. If you have a desire to learn you can know at least some of it as well.

[Tim2723]

Excellent point Mike, I agree. I do most of the work myself as well. Except for refretting, I've done all my own set ups. It's a little unnerving at first, but I practiced on a junker.

[steve in tampa]

Getting to know the luthiers, and having them explain things about certain instruments has educated me enough that I can handle some of the simple stuff with confidence, but I let them replace nuts, dress frets, etc., and get the instruments "set up" at least once in their lifetime with the strings I plan to use on the respective instrument. Different string tensions and gauges can be different enough to warrant adjustment.

[Stephen Perry]

There's setup and SETUP.

Basic setup should be truss rod, nut, frets, bridge fitting, action setting, decent strings, to average standards. Or at least very consistent for the brand. There's no reason I can see that instruments made of many pieces of wood and taking lots of time can't have this final step done properly. At least the fretted instruments. A technician doesn't need to know how to play to do a great basic setup.

Instead, I get mandolins with an unfitted bridge in a bag rubber banded to the headstock. High nut. Marginal strings. My tendency is to not sell those instruments. I'm competing on price with places that don't spend the time to set them up right.

The better lines generally come with a decent basic setup only taking a tweek here and there, possible a result of changes in shipping. Still takes some time.

Some makes come with high setups, allowing the shop to fit to a player's taste. This makes sense, not too hard to lower.

Then there's SETUP to a particular taste. This should probably be on top of the basic work.

Violins are worse. I've had numerous violins come in where the first thing I do is throw away the strings, bridge, tailpiece, and soundpost. Then plane the fingerboard etc. Start from scratch. No reason the cheap labor that made the instrument can't do a setup to reasonable specs. Just the way the instrument industry developed.

[Steve Cat]

I really don't understand this at all. Take your average Les Paul at Guitar Center for example. Maybe the truss rod needs a tad of adjustment, but my guess is that's about it. The nut is pretty much fixed as are the frets. Frets not level to the degree you can eyeball it? I can't imagine this. Nut not cut right? comeon.....Bridge placement? How much time would that take for a dealer with an electric tuner to check? Strings? That's just the manufacturer's choice, not really a set up question. FWIW my new Big Muddy came from the manufacturer with GHS stings.

Custom setup? This just doesn't fly. A custom set up is a matter of personal choice, after you have the instrument in your hands and played it for a while. Dealers online bragging about $80 setups on all their mandos, with out me giving input and then putting it in the mail; it aint custom. I don't think the average player could even tell about truss rod adjustment unless it were way out of wack and one little iota of humidity change negates most changes made to the truss rods in different locations (store vs house). Neck relief on the short neck of a mando must be measured in microns, Ha Ha! Heck my humble little mando doesn't even have an adjustable truss rod. I think most mando dealers just don't have enough leverage with the manufacturer and are just accepting/correcting poor manufacturing issues in either case not a real custom set up.
I think we are just encouraging poor quality by trying to justify this. If we are really willing to accept this then why not just but you mandos from Musicians Friend and have them adjusted locally or learn to do it yourself and save some money over the boutique sellers.

[Hans]

Yes, setup to who's standard? Most builder's try to set them up to play nicely. I've had folks tell me that my instruments play well, but the action is too low.
Can't please everyone... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Treetopper]

This may seem rather obvious, but why don't you learn to do the setup yourself. It is not very difficult and you can get it exactly the way you want it. Time is not a factor, since it is in your possession. I have been setting up my own mandolins for the last 5 years and am getting rather good at it. Just my opinion.

[sunburst]

Why is it that manufacturers ship the instruments in this 'incomplete' form? To me that is akin to buying a new car, be it a low end Chevy or a Mercedes, and having to get a mechanic to adjust every major system before the car will perform.
You can buy a Mercedes and drive it off the lot, and you can buy a moderately high end mandolin and play it right out of the store. They will both work.

I'm not a Nascar fan, but I've been near a TV when there was a race going on before. If you happen to see a race on TV, watch the shots of the pit crews. They adjust suspension components, change tires, adjust air foils, etc. almost every time the car comes in to the pit. Why didn't they just build the car perfectly adjusted to start with? Well, it's because they are trying to maximize the car's performance by setting it up.
Though your new Mercedes may seem fine to you on the street or on the open road, a couple of laps around the track will probably reveal lots of things that could be set up better.

OK. so you're not planning on taking you new Mercedes on the track, you might say, and you don't need that much set up. Well then, I guess that means different people need/want different set ups for their cars.

It's the same with mandolins. Most custom builders set up their instruments to the best of their abilities before they sell them, but how do we know if it's going to someone who just wants to play it on the couch (drive it on the street) or take it on the track (play it in the studio or stage)? Or how do we know if it's going to someone who likes light strings and high action or someone who wants it "as low as it will go without buzzing"?

Anyway, good set up work takes skill, and skill costs money. As Steve said, he is competing on price when he sells instruments, so a modicum of set up work is all he can afford. It's a similar situation for the manufacturer. A good set up "guy" costs money, and when you are selling low end stuff the customer is usually price shopping. Often he/she will buy at the lowest price, and will not even be aware of whether or not the instrument has a decent set up.

One more thing;
Most of us tend to vastly underestimate the potential of wood to move under string tension and under changes of relative humidity.

[JEStanek]

An interesting aside at the very end of a Mike Marshall offering basic mandolin tips, at the very end he talks about set up and how crucial they are. Watch it! (http://www.tothestage.com/MediaDetail.PAGE?ActiveID=1172&query=marshall&MediaId=352)

Thanks to Kidgloves for this thread were I found the video link above. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=50264)

Jamie

[Nick Triesch]

A lot of folks are just rude. Years ago I went to our weekly bluegrass night and a guy said " let me see your mandolin" ( new Flatiron F5 artist) He said right off the bat that the action was too low and I should adjust it higher ! For who? For him? Same with a Givens I had. I went to a festival and a mando player friend said " the first thing I need to do is have a new nut installed with closer spacing" . He said that is the first thing you do , have the nut changed. For who? For him? I have found over the years that new, high quality mandolins do not for the most part need a setup. All they need is for the adjustable bridge to be adjusted either up or down to the way you as a player like the feel of the action. Thats it! Up or down. Weber for instance sends out their mandolins set up very nice but they give you that cool little bridge adjusting tool to bring the bridge to the place where you like it. Nick

[Snakebeard Jackson]

I see it like a doctor. Try talking a mandolin through about 80 bar shows. It needs a check up. For me set up does matter as to the level of mandolin. I'm not ready to mess much with my Weber that I gig all my shows with. But I'm not above taking my "campfire Eastman" and messing aroudn with the set up on it.
A great set up by a someone who knows does make a diffrence.
p.s. when I first got my Weber it was set perfect.
after five years and 100 shows it ain't set perfect no more.