Faster chording?

[LoneStarMandolin]

what I want my left hand to do and what it can do don't seem to be meshing up like I'd like. that left hand needs to chord FASTER - but the full four finger G chord and some of the other four finger chords just don't get down fast enough. by the time I'm forming the chord the song has moved on!

the obvious answer is more practice but I'd be interested in what folks practice to get better at that or any other ideas you have about how to chord faster. I can chord along with two finger chords but I need to move up to the full chop chords and am just a little frustrated at my lack of progress. Ideas?

[Andrew DeMarco]

only thing i've found that works is practice

[Matt Hutchinson]

Here comes the boring answer....use a metronome. Write out a few fairly standard chord progressions & play along at a speed you're comfortable with then gradually notch it up. You'll get quicker and more accurate with practice.

I know it's more fun to practice tunes but rhythm playing is a huge part of playing BG mandolin so it won't hurt to practice that a little more too.

Matt

[AlanN]

What I did/do, is in boring meetings, or at a stop light, or..., I clasp my hands together with left hand fingers on right hand back and make the chord shapes. I get strange looks, but what the hay...

[JeffD]

What I did/do, is in boring meetings, or at a stop light, or..., I clasp my hands together with left hand fingers on right hand back and make the chord shapes. I get strange looks, but what the hay...
Ha! I thought I was the only one who does that!

[AlanN]

A particularly spastic-looking one is the major9 shape Grisman uses on Janice. That always gets a look http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Pete Martin]

Maybe get to a good teacher for help, a couple of lessons should do it. Look at your hand movements in a mirror to see if there is a way to make them more efficient. Watch how fluid chord players use their hands, then do the same in the mirror. Best of luck.

[Bruce Evans]

This may or may not help you. I find that some beginners get their fingers on the first chord and happily strum away right up to the moment the next chord comes due. If you have a few measures to chop or strum before the next chord, use that time to think about what that next chord is going to be. Get your mind and fingers ready.

Also, don't just practice changing chords in the context of a tune. Practice changing from a G to a C and back without even strumming. Practice changing from G to D and back. Practice changing from G to C to D and back to G. Do this for at least two hours every day.

Nah. Kidding. Even if you only practice silent chord changing for 30 seconds twice a day, I think it will help you.

[kudzuklunker]

Try G to D to G to D and then A to E to A to E. Repeat. Do not take your pinky off the board at any time. Within fifteen minutes of this, using a metronome, you will be fixed.

[SternART]

Sometimes folks opt for playing 2 or 3 note versions of chords to start getting the
hang of things. Those chop chords take awhile for anybody to master the stretch. Just
grab what you can & that pinky will eventually learn its part.

[mandolirius]

I've done some teaching and this is one of the big issues that comes up time and time again. What I often advise students is to slow the chord change down to "slow-motion" movements. Take a close look at exactly what you're asking your fingers to do. By analyzing the movement, you can often build efficiency into the change.

For example, take a G chop. You have, low to high, frets 7-5-2-3. When you go to change to D, focus on just the middle two fingers. The second finger is going from the third fret, E string to the fouth fret, D string. Meanwhile the third finger is staying on the fifth fret, but moving up to the A string. Try concentrating on that part of the chord change first. Then you will notice that your first and fourth fingers aren't moving much - same fret and up one string for the first finger and no change for the fourth.

When you break it down that way, you can see exactly what you need to do. This works with a lot of my students. Hope it helps you, too.

[LoneStarMandolin]

What I did/do, is in boring meetings, or at a stop light, or..., I clasp my hands together with left hand fingers on right hand back and make the chord shapes. I get strange looks, but what the hay...

that sounds interesting - and like a good way to sneak in some extra practice. can you elaborate a little on how this works, what you do, etc?

[Rick Parrish]

I'm working on the same thing myself and what seems to be working (in the context of lots of practice) is to plan the move carefully as described by mandolirius, with the key being figuring out which finger is going to "lead the charge" and how the other fingers follow. Once you figure this out, you do it over and over for each change you have trouble with (it's different for each transition, especially chosing the lead finger). Eventually, it becomes one motion.

This is how my teacher Mike Mitchell of Floyd, Va is teaching me and it seems to work. He's primarily a fiddler and they tend to maintain contact with the fingerboard in order to hit the right notes since they don't have the frets to go by. This level of "efficiency" (I'm told) will allow you to build speed unhindered both while chording and playing lead and breaks. I'm nowhere near playing a "break" yet but I can understand the logic.

[AlanN]

What I did/do, is in boring meetings, or at a stop light, or..., I clasp my hands together with left hand fingers on right hand back and make the chord shapes. I get strange looks, but what the hay...

that sounds interesting - and like a good way to sneak in some extra practice. #can you elaborate a little on how this works, what you do, etc?
I'll try.

Assuming you're a righty, hold your left as though you're going to catch a penny. Then, take your right hand and lay the heel of it in the left palm. Your left hand fingers are now ready to lay on the back of your right hand.

I'll 'grab' a G chop and practice going G to D and back. Also, barre A, D7, whatever. No substitute for the real thing, but passes the time.

[Salty Dog]

The 4 position G chord is quite a stretch for beginners with average hands and finger length, but if you want to master the bluegrass style of chop, you have to learn it. #A practice tip to get you there is to play as much in the key of A (four finger positon two frets up the neck) as you can until it is comfortable and then you will find that moving a couple of frets toward the nut is easier. #If A is too much of a stretch, try the key of B (two more frets up the neck) and work your way down.

[Geoff B]

Giving your middle, ring and pinky finger a good working can help in this department as well. Your pointer and middle and ring finger are usually the fastest to pick things up, but shift the focus away from your pointer for a bit to strengthen that pinkie, soon it will be slapping that G-string like the hammer of Thor while the rest of your fingers pound along. Of course, if you want to change chords faster, you should only press as hard as you need and no more. Once your fingers get strong enough to strike like a hammer, the new problem is to relearn a delicate, deliberate touch.
:cool:

[GVD]

Salty Dog Posted

The 4 position G chord is quite a stretch for beginners with average hands and finger length, but if you want to master the bluegrass style of chop, you have to learn it. #A practice tip to get you there is to play as much in the key of A (four finger positon two frets up the neck) as you can until it is comfortable and then you will find that moving a couple of frets toward the nut is easier. #If A is too much of a stretch, try the key of B (two more frets up the neck) and work your way down.

That's the trick that worked for me back in the day.

GVD

[Doug Hoople]

Practice rhythm a lot on 'Blackberry Blossom' and 'Whiskey Before Breakfast,' and swear off playing 'Sally Goodin' until you're happy with the speed of your chord changes! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

No, seriously. And don't forget your metronome!

[Rick Schmidlin]

only thing i've found that works is practice
Ditto http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[mcH]

Try G to D to G to D and then A to E to A to E. Repeat. Do not take your pinky off the board at any time. Within fifteen minutes of this, using a metronome, you will be fixed.
Or crippled! :-)

[kudzuklunker]

Yea, maybe crippled but this helped me more than anything as a beginner. It's simple and it works. Just keep it slow.

[Red Henry]

Having trouble with the 4-finger chords? DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM. Make 3-finger chords instead. Or 2-finger chords. Or no chords. Don't let the bluegrass police give you any trouble about it, either. Bill Monroe himself didn't play chop chords for the first several years, until he had younger musicians coming into his band that needed help with the rhythm!

I was in a 3-mandolin situation on stage last Wednesday night. Most of the time, I didn't "chop" at all. What bluegrass music needs is NOT several different ideas of where the off-beat is. And if chords don't come naturally to you, don't worry about them. Red Rector didn't play chop chords. Neither does Tim O'Brien, to my ears.

Play what's easy, not what people think you should play.


Red.

[Salty Dog]

I really hate to disagree with a master mandolin player as Red, but I disagree that playing what is easy is always the right answer. #I often play two or three finger chord positions to get more of an acoustic sound to fit the song. #However, there are times when the "chop" is the sound that fits the song and the band best. #You are correct that WSM did not agressively chop until Flatt and Scruggs joined him but my humble opinion is that he put the mandolin in a competition with Scruggs banjo and introduced the off-beat "chop" as the counterpoint to the offbeat "chunk" of the banjo. #The historic recordings show the more agressive mandolin playing surface as WSM moved Scruggs to a more prominent instrumental role and moved Lester to the main lead vocal. #At least that's what I hear as I listen to the progression of the early '45-'48 recordings. #The four finger G-chord should not really be a discouraging factor as I didn't really get serious about the mandolin until I was 60 (old, tired fingers) and felt completely comfortable with it in a couple of years. #Mastering it does, however, require some work and determination, but that is what any serious mandolin student should consider necessary. #If you set low goals, that's probably what you will achieve but if you set high goals, you might not achieve them but you will probably achieve your potential.

[Ken Sager]

Having trouble with the 4-finger chords? DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM. Make 3-finger chords instead. Or 2-finger chords. Or no chords. Don't let the bluegrass police give you any trouble about it, either. Bill Monroe himself didn't play chop chords for the first several years, until he had younger musicians coming into his band that needed help with the rhythm!

<snip>

Play what's easy, not what people think you should play.
I'm with Red. Well said.

[Don Stiernberg]

I always tell my students that making the chords is easy, changing from one to the other is the challenge. This corobborates the excellent advice given somewhere above about extracting a chord change or two from a song and running it until it it becomes second nature. Also, watch for common fingers between chord changes--if you can leave the pinky and another finger down while only two other fingers move, that's good.

The "chop" is, I think, the most difficult thing we do on the mandolin(physically)and yet it's the first thing we learn and teach. I've seen little kids out there chopping before their hands are full grown. We may want to re-think this approach to mandolin study. The point here is to allow yourself plenty of time to develop the strength to make and CHANGE those chords quickly. You'll get it, but if it hurts when you're practicing, set it aside and work on single note playing for a while. Remember also that when you're practicing, you're not just drilling the fret hand and building strength and brute force, you're also drilling the
sending of the message, quickening the time used to change
from G(I) to D(V) or from Bb(I)to F(V)or whatever...be sure to have a visualization of those shapes, that may speed things along as well.Lastly, if your thumb is up and over the fretboatd, flattening your fingers instead of allowing them to be arched, that could slow things down or tighten up your fretting hand and arm.

Oh wait, there is more--the pick hand. I like to think of all four notes(strings) in the chop as one thing, and swing the pick through that all in one fell swoop. No muting in the right hand, the staccato effect comes from releasing the fret hand upon striking the strings and hearing all four pitches....

Hello Red Henry, you fine mandolin player you! I'm with you on exploring several ways to chord and function as a member of an ensemble, bluegrass or otherwise. Each of us has to find his own way to contribute to the music.

Still and all, those chop chords will come, and those "other" chords(minor, augmented, diminished, half-diminished,suspended, etc..) will too. Hang in there and go with smaller pieces of the puzzle: change one chord to another over and over again. Then try a three chord cadence, (say, B-E-F#) over and over again. Then try a four chord sequence, (say, Don't Let the Deal Go Down/Salty Dog/Alabama Jubilee)---you guessed it--over and over again.
To go right from being able to form chop chords to jamming with others at tempo will usually cause some frustration.

Most likely when you least expect it you'll find yourself
chopping away as if it had never been a challenge in the first place. Hopefully some of these angles will help you get to that point..

[LoneStarMandolin]

Try G to D to G to D and then A to E to A to E. Repeat. Do not take your pinky off the board at any time. Within fifteen minutes of this, using a metronome, you will be fixed.
when I go from G to D my pinky doesn't have a string to fret - so I pick it up. same would be true from A to E - a four fingered form going to a three fingered form.

what am I doing wrong here?

[LoneStarMandolin]

thanks so much to all who have replied.

here's an update:

1. I really appreciate those who said "play what you want" - but I WANT to play the full chop chords. I want to get better and play more than two fingered chords. so that's why I was asking about specific drills and practice techniques to help me get better at doing that.

which brings me to ....

2. USING A METRONOME REALLY REALLY WORKS. I've done lots of work chopping from G to C to D and back to G but I wasn't getting any faster because I wasn't using a met. The met injects the time and urgency into the process, as well as letting me work on timing the offbeat chop. It seems like most mandolin questions are answered with "practice with a metronome" and this is no exception. I've gotten better at going from G to D in a few days of working with a met then I have in the previous six months. Started at 45 bpm (which my teen-age daughter told me was "really really slow" - thanks for the encouragement!) and can now comfortably change at 60 bpm. I just keep bumping it up 5 bpm and keep working. and it's working!

I really really appreciate the help and ideas -- they were all of value. and again to you other beginners out here turn a met on. I think it'll make a huge difference in your chording.

thanks again!

[Greg H.]

Another approach is don't try to play the chord to ring as a full chord. If you listen to Sam Bush (and I've heard Ron Inscore do this as well) he will often play a muffled chop. i.e. He's fingering the chord but not really pressing down on it. By doing this you're getting the rhythm (the primary crucial part of our role as mandolin/snare drum) and if you miss a fret or two along the way no one is going to notice. The advantage here is you are still keeping the rhythm while your fingers learn their positions.

[Philphool]

Try G to D to G to D and then A to E to A to E. Repeat. Do not take your pinky off the board at any time. Within fifteen minutes of this, using a metronome, you will be fixed.
when I go from G to D my pinky doesn't have a string to fret - so I pick it up. same would be true from A to E - a four fingered form going to a three fingered form.

what am I doing wrong here?
=============================
LoneStar
I think the D spoken of above is the 7-4-5-2 form of the D chord.

Phil