Mics

[Scotti Adams]

..Where do ya'all place your mic when playing thru a PA?...most of the time I try to position it at the treble F hole.....Ive always got a good sound a tone from there...Im thinking about trying to stand further away from the mic and have it pointed dead center between the F holes and let the sound man worry about the levels...

[BenE]

Scotti...It is pretty amazing how much the sound will change as you move around a mic. We have been in the studio and one of the first things we did was try several differnt mic placements and record the results. I thought the best sound came from placing the mic towards the lower F hole about centered up with the bridge. It seemed to have the woofy low end that way and that was what I was looking for....we tried it several different locations but the way I described got the best sound to my ear. Sure makes you realize that by moving around the mic on stage you can sure get a lot of different sounds out of the mandolin.

[Scotti Adams]

..my point exactly....in this latest Cd that Im on we actually placed a mic as you desribed plus another mic around the neck area...so in essence there was a whole lot of tones being captured....I liked the final sound alot...it was huge and sort of Steffinish.....

[batman]

i notice rice uses two mic on the guitar in the studio, so i don't see why it wouldnt work with the mando. never really thought of it until now, might give it a try. Don Batten

[John Flynn]

Our choir leader at church is a great guitarist and a local sound reinforcement expert. He recommends that for a really clean sound, you want the mike at least about a foot distance from the sound hole and about a 45 degree angle from directly in front of the soundhole. Putting the mike right in front of a soundhole does give you that "woofy" sound you might want in bluegrass, but not necessarily in other styles of music.

[Spruce]

Stage and studio are 2 different animals, IMO....

(It shouldn't be, though, should it?).

Anyway, on stage I go for the aforementioned treble F-hole with a dynamic mic like an SM57 or the like...

In the studio, I usually put a condenser (KM84, Josephson C660, KSM32, etc.) where the neck meets the body of the instrument, regardless of what that instrument is--F5, A-model, or m'cello...

Vary to taste...

A secret weapon for getting pure "wood" to tape is to put a ribbon mic (RCA 77DX, 44BX, BK11, Royer, etc.) behind the pickin' hand, check for phasing, and then blend it in with the condenser track.
The condenser gets the articulation and 75% of the sound of the instrument, and the ribbon track is like adding pure "wood" to the overall sound of the 2 combined tracks. #
That woody sound is sometimes hard to capture, and the ribbon trick will usually do it on an unfamiliar mandolin...

Lately I've just been using a single KSM32 to record a John Sullivan F5, and that seems to work just fine...
Love the low-end content on that mic!

[BenE]

Scotti...Mandomood/Jason sent me a good email about what he did in the studio after talking to Matt Flinner...Said he used two mics like you described...We have been live tracking and using individual mics and a couple of room mics as well....Sounds great!

[John S]

It's easiest for me to mic the lower F hole, though I've seen some who favored the upper F hole. I think that would get in the way for me. I use a Shure Beta 57 on our PA. For rhythm, I'm usually 8-12" away and then I lean in close for solos.

In the studio I have been using a large condensor about 12-14" away from the top, plus a small condensor again 12-14" away pointed towards the fingerboard extension. I haven't played around extensively with this setup but I'm pretty happy with the results so far.

[BenE]

A secret weapon for getting pure "wood" to tape is to put a ribbon mic (RCA 77DX, 44BX, BK11, Royer, etc.) behind the pickin' hand, check for phasing, and then blend it in with the condenser track.
The condenser gets the articulation and 75% of the sound of the instrument, and the ribbon track is like adding pure "wood" to the overall sound of the 2 combined tracks.
That woody sound is sometimes hard to capture, and the ribbon trick will usually do it on an unfamiliar mandolin...

Lately I've just been using a single KSM32 to record a John Sullivan F5, and that seems to work just fine...
Love the low-end content on that mic!


Interesting! The banjo player in the band has been doing all his recording through a ribbon mic and we are using a ribbon mic as the room mic....Those things are amazing!

[GTison]

would a at4040 or similar be considered a ribbon mic?

[Spruce]

No...
It's a large diaphram condenser...

Here's (http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/sw/myst.php) a blurb on the dfferences between condenser, dynamic, and ribbon mics...

[mike_c]

the best sound i have found so far in the studio is a neumann tlm-103 large diaphram and a neumann small diaphram km-84 both 12-14" in front of the FACE of the #mandolin...(they are both on axis- not in x-y stereo)...the two diaphrams are as physically close together as possible to avoid phase problems..i usually blend both mics about equal volume..the small diaphram has the edge and bite, and the large diaphram adds roundness..they seem to work remarkably well together.

[mike_c]

i forgot to add, that with the above set up,,the two neumanns are one one on top of the other.(vertical). the small diaphram points at treble F hole, the large diaphram points at bass F hole..12" away, and as close to each other as possible ..

[Spruce]

Do you pan 'em in the mix or sum them to mono?

[Darryl Wolfe]

[quote=Spruce,June 10 2004, 15:04]Stage and studio are 2 different animals, IMO....

(It shouldn't be, though, should it?).

Anyway, on stage I go for the aforementioned treble F-hole with a dynamic mic like an SM57 or the like...

In the studio, I usually put a condenser (KM84, Josephson C660, KSM32, etc.) where the neck meets the body of the instrument, regardless of what that instrument is--F5, A-model, or m'cello...




Ditto Spruce...as you know I played and recorded for years..and those are exactly my thoughts

[mike_c]

spruce--i have done both..when my wife and i do a mando- guitar- duet recording..i usually pan about 1:30 and 10:30..with mando mics--and 9:00 and 3:00 with the guitar mics.(large diaphram behind bridge-small where neck meets body) that creates a big sound for two instruments--(like the 1980 skaggs and rice duet recording) ..when i record mando with the vertical neumanns on a recording with more instruments, i usually pan to mono. i have recorded with a ribbon mic (beyer m260 with sank ribbon) and a km-84 at fingerboard..that works great also. hey spruce, how about we trade cds??..i just finished a duet recording with the vertical neumanns featuring my 1980 m-5 monteleone and a 2003 collings mf-5 ..

[mandobsessed]

I think it really depends on the mic. I am using a large diaphram AKG in the studio, I put it about 6-8 inches from the treble f hole. I'd love to get into stereo micing though.

On stage I use a pencil condenser mic about 8 inches from my mando. I switch instruments a lot and find that a condenser gives me better sound.

[Spruce]

"hey spruce, how about we trade cds??"

Sure!
Anyone else?

[Ridgewater]

Hi Guys,
Hey Scotti, Spruce is right. Stage/Studio are two different things.
The F-hole is the place to mic it live. I would try to stay around two inches(no closer) from mic on breaks and about 18" chops. If the rest of the band leaves some air between them and their mic, the live mix sounds better to me. this also gives you a little headroom for your breaks. If your to close on the chops and the soundman turns you down , your break isn't loud enough then. If he's not on top of it , your break may not be heard.
I know your mandolin and it sounds so sweet.
Hey Spruce, have you used Royer 121 on Mandolin???
Josephson C-42?
Stereo or mono??

[Spruce]

"Hey Spruce, have you used Royer 121 on Mandolin???
Josephson C-42?"

I haven't used a Royer yet, but have used a modified B&O ribbon, which is the mic that Royer used as a basis for their designs...
Lovely sounding microphone...
You can see a pic of it here (http://www.bruceharvie.com/pulse.html), about 1/2 way down the page....

Haven't used a C-42 yet either....
I've got a Josephson C-660 small diaphram condenser which I like a lot on mando....

[Ridgewater]

Hey Spruce,
I was just out your way last week. Went to see my daughter. Seem some fine instruments in the Fremont district of Seattle. A place called The Dusty String. They had some nice handcrafted Harps, hammer dulcimers. Also saw Studio X and Bad Animals while I was there.
I saw the pics. Looks like a good session. What CD? I notice one pic has caption that Disterssor was used when tracking. I just ordered a EL-8SX this past week.

[Bobbie Dier]

Would someone please show that ribbon mike setup with a picture?

[mike_c]

hey spruce.sent off a cd to you,,you should have it any day--

[Scotti Adams]

Hey Bordo man!!!!...hows it going?....long time no see.....Im still wanting to do the solo project sometime......Listen up boys and girls....Bordley owns a great studio...hes a great guy...and he can make me sound good... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Look him up if your in the area...

[mike_c]

hey spruce...i got your cds...they sound great...the monteleone sounds great also..thanks for the trade..mike c

[Pete Martin]

I have used a Royer R121 with mando. #While I haven't tried Spruces suggestion yet (I will soon), here is my fav micing system now. # # # # #

First of all, I am very lucky to own a mandolin that sounds good miced about anywhere. #I track one track at a time. #I use a Shure KSM 44 about 1 foot behind my right hand pointed right at the strings. #I love this sound. #I use this for leads and fills. #When chopping, I use the R121 about 2 feet in front of the 12th fret, pointed where the neck joins the body. #This gives a slightly woodier, more percussive sound.

With ribbon mics, you need a clean high gain mic preamp. #I use a John Hardy M1 for all acoustic instruments, regardless of mics. #Makes a huge difference. #It has enough gain to drive the ribbon well.

That said, any body used the new AEA 84 ribbon? #How about the phantom powered Royer R122?

Now for live stage work, I use the Shure KSM 137 with the bass rolled off at around 300 (about 3db per octave roll off). #I mic right in the lower f hole. #I have 3 right hand techniques when I play, one very loud, one meduim, another very soft for fast playing. #I set the volume for the soft playing about 2" in front of the f hole. #When I chop, I back up to about 10", when playing medium tempo about 6", medium volume about 4" (fills, etc) and when playing very fast about 2". #In this way I can get all the sound I need to the board. #This leaves room to get right on top of the mic if needed (sometimes I touch the wind screen against the f hole). #The bass roll off keeps down the proximity effect (the boomyness that happens when you get very close to a mic). #The KSM 137 has so much gain that even on lousy PA systems, I can always be heard well.

I always take my own mic to any gig. #That way I know what my sound will be. # # # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif