Singing Harmony

[tallgirl1204]

Hey you all,

I sing harmony a lot with a friend who is a fine singer ... except when he gets nervous or tense (like when we're performing).

Then he's still a fine singer, but he goes sharp, oh maybe a quarter tone, and stays there. I've tried talking to him about it, but he really can't hear it when he does it.

So, here's the dilemma. As I'm harmonizing, do I try to tune with the instruments? With him? Somewhere in between?

It's not like I'm the finest singer in the world, but I think I could help to mitigate this a little-- or can I?

I'll hang up and listen now.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Sounds like you should get him to a voice teacher - should be an easy fix. It's about control.
As far as nervous, that's not as easily correctable. Maybe get more small gigs, or do a bunch of house parties until he can get comfortable being on stage.
What can you do vocally? - not a whole lot other than reinventing the wheel. That means a whole new (and creative) harmony. I've seen it done. Check out Mad Agnes. Might work with little difficulty if you do punk. But if you're doing Louvins, it'll never fly.
Are you the lead? (Didn't sound like it.) Then take charge and let him pull it together. If he is, then - VOICE LESSONS or reverse roles.

[jim simpson]

I use to sing with a fine baritone singer who would go flat at times. I didn't know how to flatten my tenor and when I listened back to tapes of performances it would really bother me. He was aware of his tendency but didn't seem to be able to correct it. I think he took some singing lessons as he started singing with a church choir. Maybe there wasn't a prayer for him.

[tallgirl1204]

Thanks for the input-- some good thoughts. I don't think singing lessons are in my friend's future-- he's pretty impoverished-- so...

Given that nobody is ever perfectly in tune, who do we try to tune with? The instruments or the voices? Some happy medium? If we can't achieve perfection, which do we aim at?

Frankly, I LOVE to sing harmony. Way prefer it to lead. Singing lead usually means I end up singing alone. So much more fun to sing together! And yes, it's traditional music for the most part.

Sigh. I wish he wouldn't get nervous. Maybe tranquilizers?

[Flowerpot]

I've been there too. It's tempting to sing in tune with the instruments, but what people will notice more is whether the two voices are in tune with each other. So I would cheat pretty heavily in the direction of the lead vocal. Bad as I might be cringing inside, it's the least of the evils, I think. Sometimes in a jam if the lead singer is way too off, I'll drop the harmony (you're on your own, buddy), but I'm sure you don't want to do that in a performance.

[GTison]

my brother hummmmmms while he plays the banjo. He's a great banjo player. but he doesn't know he's humming this awful highpitched off key stuff. It's wierd. sometimes onstage if you increase the monitor volume this can help you sing on key better it may be a hearing problem... I know it has helped me sing in tune better when I can hear things correctly.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Then you gotta get creative, tallgirl. Expand the harmonies. Make them special/unique. Sing without the instruments. (only use one when necessary - like to give you starting pitch!)
If it's about singing, then sing #- and enjoy it. Practice alot until you both, and he especially, are (is) totally familiar with the material and won't be as uptite in it's presentation. Look for the key (s) that create the least problems and use those primarily, even if it means transposing some of your material.
Please don't think I'm being callous. But I have few facts to work with regarding the issue. Probably should have kept quiet. I have no idea of his range, voice quality, etc. And I know the instrument playing may be important, and is enjoyable besides! In fact he may not want to sing without playing an instrument. But to have this problem doesn't make for a successful sound.
So I suggest what I do, as there is a lot of interest in, and respect for, acapella, and it may just be the best thing in this case. At least to explore for now. Add instrumentation as more experience and practice bears fruit in the form of more relaxed live performances.

As a side note, Mary, of Peter, Paul, and Mary (many years ago) was sometimes criticized for singing slightly flat. Never halted their progress as a major contributor to the folk scene. Recording engineers worked wonders, but live it was just accepted. She had an amazing power and timbre to her voice that was obviously ok with her audience.

[JDARTGOD]

You'll just have to work with him and try holding out long tones / phrases on the pitch you want him to hit. It takes time. Could be he has an actual hearing problem in that frequency, if it's ocurring on a certain pitch or key.

I WOULD NOT harmonize sharper if it's all above the band's tuning. Just something you have to work out. Have him sing by himself (in rehearsal) and have everybody stop on the pitch he goes sharp on and try to see if HE can hear where he is pushing it sharp. If he can't hear that it's out of tune, unfortunately, there's not much you can do.

[tallgirl1204]

Actually, you guys are being really helpful. We are already talking about transposing a couple of tunes up a note or two. And maybe I need to back off on some of the songs that are more problematic. You've also got me thinking about which kinds of songs are more prone to sharpness, and maybe we can steer away from them.

I'm going to stick with matching his pitch rather than going so much with the instruments, and we'll just continue to practice-practice-practice.

btw he has a nice almost-high-lonesome tenor, and is well-respected locally as a songwriter, so there's lots of "good" to work with-- I just want us to be the best band we can be as a whole, too.

And thanks for the Mary Travers example too-- I used to notice that she sang flat. But the boys she sang with (that would be P & P) seemed to "lift" her, and that's what I'm trying to do (albeit in the opposite direction).

[Randy]

There may be another alternative. I have seen in catalogues and in other publications, references to an electronic gizmo that can correct an off-pitch voice. I believe that it's a device that you plug your mic into and then into the mixer/amp. I don't know what they are called or how much they cost, but some of the things I have read indicate that they work quite well. Check with a tech at a reputatble recording studio. They'll probably know all about them.
I've thought about using one for my mando - never have to tune again.

[mandofiddle]

Get a microphone with a 1/4 inch plug, and an electronic tuner. Have him sing his notes, one by one into the mic, while watching the needles on the tuner. For each note have him adjust until the needle is "in tune". If he's the type of person to work on things on his own, he can do this away from rehearsal in order to help train his voice and vocal chords. With practice, he'll be able to hear when he's sharp or flat, and the practice will help give him more confidence onstage to hit his note better...

[Marshall]

One more thing that might possibly be useful (not anywhere near as useful as the other comments):

Two simultaneous notes will often clash more easily if they are close together. If it works musically to shift to a different harmony note that's farther from what he's singing, you might be able to sing in tune with the instruments without it sounding so bad.

[sunburst]

One of the best musicians I ever played with was a piano player in a country/rock-n-roll/bar/country club type band I used to play in. She has perfect pitch. You know, the kind of person that can tell you what note the vacuum cleaner is screaming.
Anyway, she said she tended to sing sharp, but the lead singer in the band tended to sing flat. On her harmony parts she intentionally sang flat along with the lead singer to keep the harmonies sounding right.
To me, with a good ear but not perfect pitch, it always sounded good.

[RandyLaMoraa]

Sunburst,
# Just record a performance and if he cant hear it when you listen to it later youve really got a problem, for what its worth I did this once and found I #was the problem.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # Randy

[tallgirl1204]

You guys are so fabulous. I like the idea of singing "farther away" (a challenge for me, and I like those! Sixths and fifths are such cool intervals).

Good news is we played a folk fest this weekend and the sharp-factor was much less in evidence than our previous outing. We were well-rehearsed, having fun, and I think being relaxed made a huge difference. I was also playing with your ideas when things went that direction-- staying mostly with the instruments but bending in his direction seemed to pull him back down when things started to go awry.

He told me afterward that he appreciated so much the opportunity he has had to learn to sing better in harmony with me and others in the band in the last year or so-- I was glad I hadn't lit into him over it-- but I will be keeping all these suggestions in my hip pocket for those events when nerves lift the pitch again!

[derrickrc]

The high lonesome sound, you talked about, is an awesome sound which helps define the bluegrass idiom but your friend is not alone in going sharp. By its very nature that sound does go sharp due physiological effects when their isn't enough breath support to back up that tone and when there is alot of tension in the neck and body. When practicing you might suggest that he rehearses the music an octave lower for the majority of the time, then maybe at the last run through he can sing the songs up in its normal octave. What ever you decide to do try to minimize as much tension as possible when you practice. It will make the difference on the stage. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif