4 track recording

[bienkow1]

I am completely ignorant when it comes to "old school" recording methods, but I am looking to buy an older Tascam 4 track recorder. Does anyone have any experience recording in this fashion? Does it have an internal mic for acoustic instruments? Can you hear tracks already recorded when your adding more tracks (for soloing purposes)? Is there a way to transfer cassette to mp3?

Anyhow, bascially looking for some info. I know this isn't directly mandolin related, but a mando will be used in recording if that makes it ok.

Thanks!

[olgraypat]

Although I'm not familiar with the newer models, the ones I see adveritsed seem to be about the same as the one I bought a while back. They do not have an internal mike. You will likely want to get a condenser mike, which will require purchasing a pre-amp. Yes, you can listen..with headphones, to the other tracks as you record a new track. The tapes it uses are "Type II" and are a little hard to find, and don't play on typical cassette players, I believe. Yes, you can "transfer" to MP3, by the purchase of some "off the shelf" software. This will store in digital format on you r computer and from there you can burn to CD or convert to MP3. This is a little complicated for the unititiated, but I figured it out, so I'd ssay you can or you can send a private message, and I'll try to remember what I did. The recording will not be of the highest quality, I would suspect, but it can be helpful as a learning tool.

[steve V. johnson]

When four-track cassette recorders came out, just about every musician got one. They worked pretty well for using such tiny tape width.

There should be a fair amount of information still available in the world about them, especially the Tascam models, which, along with Fostex, were the most common and popular ones. If the one you're looking at buying doesn't have the manual with it, do some online searches, I'm pretty sure they're still available, and you -will- want one.

These were made for overdubbing, that is for recording one track, listening to that one while you added more, so they have two 'mixers,' one to use for the sounds going to tape and one for what you'll hear on the headphones (or speakers). When three tracks are recorded, these machines usually allowed one to "bounce," that is, mix those three to the fourth so that you could then re-record on the first three. I did it a little differently... I"d fill four tracks then mix those to a second cassette recorder in stereo, and if I wanted more tracks, I'd use the second tape and add to it in the four-track machine.

You'll want to get some foam-tipped swabs and some tape head cleaner, and I'd suggest that you clean the tape heads each time you start a session. Check a dedicated electronics shop (Radio Shack may or may not know...) for head cleaner, and if you end up using plain alcohol, make sure that it doesn't have any lanolin in it, that is, that it's not "rubbing alcohol"!! NAPA auto stores used to sell small bottles of pure methyl alcohol, too, that were good to use (and often cheaper than 'head cleaners').

BTW, I've worked some very well-known songwriters, who used four-track cassette recorders for songwriting, and we never used condensor mics. The inputs of the cassette recorder do have preamps, and most of them had 1/4" input jacks and not the 3-pronged XLR connectors for microphones, though some later and more sophisticated ones did have them. If you have a mic and cable with XLR connectors you can get a simple adaptor at, say, Radio Shack, to match the 1/4" input jack.

As Pat mentions, the newer "Type II" cassettes were much better for this sort of work, but before they were that good, we used whatever cassettes we liked. Cassettes are pretty robust, even for this use, but it'll sound best if you always start out with a new one. After a couple thousand passes you may begin to hear some degradation, and if you fill them then erase them and start over, you may hear some difference as they get older. We always tried to use short ones, so that the motors didn't have to work so hard at shuttling back and forth the tape transport. And back then, the short ones were cheaper, so we'd use 30minute ones that we'd buy in bulk for five or six songs on each cassette. Among the commercial cassettes, I liked the Maxells the best.

In any case, when you have recorded all the parts you want separately, they're mixed to stereo on another machine. Since you ask about mp3s, you could mix the output to the input of your computer to some software recorder as an mp3.

Of course, that brings to mind the possibility of simply recording into the computer with an interface to digitize the sound and software that will do what the four-track cassette recorder will do... The interface that would allow you to send your cassette mixes into the computer would probably do just as well at sending your mandolin parts, via the microphone, into the computer, and there are lots of software programs available that will record multiple tracks and mix them "in the box," too.

So it can be sort of 'six of one/half-dozen of another' at some point...

What a flashback!! I still have an archive of some songwriters' work on four-track cassettes, and a machine, stored... wow...
We got pretty sophisticated with them, too... Some folks would put midi time code on the fourth track and send that output to a midi sequencer so that we could have synthesizers and (what are now called) virtual instruments playing back with the (guitars and vocals on the) four-track cassette recorder, all thru another mixer. Wow... flashbacks...

I hope this helps! Have some fun with the four-track cassette!

stv

[56 Gibson Hoss]

I would not bother with a cassette tape unit, when there are so many new recorders that will do a better job with less hassle.
If you want a cassette unit, there are some units like that in the Musicians Friend catalog. Go to their website. All options are there and good packages.

www.musiciansfriend.com

[Santiago]

Buy yourself a Zoom H2. It's easier to use and you'll get great results. I just use Audacity software, which is like a free 16-track recorder, but it is a little temperamental, and for like $200 you'll get better results from the Zoom.

[250sc]

Take Santiago's advice if you own a PC. You'll get great projects compared to cassette or any cheaper tape format. Also no tape head cleaning or demagnitizing.

[swinginmandolins]

I started off recording with a four track recorder. I agree that there are better options out there. I use a 4 track now, but as a mixer board going into my computer. I'm hoping someday to get a better setup but for now it does what I need it to do.

[Spruce]

"I would not bother with a cassette tape unit"

It's very easy to dis the lowly cassette 4-track these digital-days, but I wouldn't... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

They can be great machines, portable, easy to use, and dependable.

But most importantly, they can produce sounds that a digital recorder can't even begin to touch. #
I'm not kidding....

That being said, bienkow1, it sounds like you might want to look into a good digital machine, or some recording software. #
It's easier to upload your stuff to CD these days (as you mentioned you want to do), and they are pretty easy to run.

But let's not trample on those poor cassette Portastudios. #They are still one of my "secret weapons" for getting certain sounds.... #

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[otterly2k]

I still have one of those Tascam Porta One 4-track cassette recorders sitting around. Haven't used it in years, but this thread is making me think maybe I might...

[TinaBee1]

a friend of mine just lent me one of those first Tascam portastudio's. recorded my first song on it last night. it ain't as fancy as the program he has on his computer but for a beginner just learning how to play mandolin,guitar and sing it's working just fine. It's scary hearing myself sing much less play the guitar!- mandolin being my main instrument. I already had microphones and stands so he didn't have to lend me those. It was just fun!

[bienkow1]

Thanks a lot for the help. I know there is much more advanced and user friendly recording options out there (my partner in crime and I currently record digitally), but I am looking for that raw sound. Once again, thank you guys for taking the time to explain the in's and out's to me.

[Spruce]

"I know there is much more advanced and user friendly recording options out there"

Well, there's nothing more user-friendly than a Portastudio... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And as far as "advanced" goes, there is no digital machine alive that can give you "that" analog tape vibe that is so easy to get with a Portastudio...

Yeah, just try to get that signal as hot as you can to tape, and don't be tempeted to bounce tracks....

They are great songwriting tools...
And--if used properly--can produce a recording that will stand up next to anything...

[Charles Andre]

Check out the brand new, just shipping, Tascam digital portastudios DP-02CF, $299, and DP-02, $499. The CF model records to compact flash and the other to built in 40GB hard drive with cd burner. USB, phantom power, other features.

[jim simpson]

I started out with a 4-track Tascam 234 when it was introduced in the 80's. It was very simple to use. I didn't have a separate mixer with mine so I built a patch bay for bouncing as well as building more tracks. I got rid of it and went for more sophisticated decks but never found the simplicity of my original Tascam. About a year or so ago, I picked up one on Ebay. Unfortunately all of the belts, etc. that are made out of rubber had turned to black goo. I was able to replace all of the belts, etc. after a lot of searching from many sources. The seller refunded my payment as it was represented as functional. He also told me to keep it if I wanted to try to fix it. It is now fully functional and I look forward to using it for my amusement. It won't be as quiet as a digital recorder but somehow that doesn't bother me.

[mando.player]

I have a Zoom H4 and it's got a 4-track mode. It's nice because it's got a decent set of mics already on it. You won't have to bother with getting any other gear. At least not right away http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Since it is a smaller unit, you do have to navigate the menu system a bit. But once you get into the flow, it's a pretty intuitive setup. If you want to "expand" down the road, it's got XLR inputs (48v power). That allows you to add better mics to the setup. It also functions as an audio interface if you want to record directly to the computer.

[kymandolin29]

hummmm....i have a old tascam 244....maybe i should get it out and use it some...what time period is this unit from http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[steve V. johnson]

I have a pal who is a veteran Nashville session guitarist and singer, and he's worked with some of the greats of country music.

I was at his house and saw not one, but -two- Tascam 388s (I think that was the model...) which were some of the very first
"personal studio" machines. They feature reel-to-reel 1/4" tape recorders in a box with an eight-channel mixer, full-featured
(and with those disgustingly color coded knobs <GG>). I asked him if he just hadn't gotten rid of them and he said no, that he
loved 'em, the ease of use and the fidelity. He's an oldtime tape guy and knows how to maintain 'em, keep em clean and aligned.

I hadn't seen them since 1983, when a bunch of big artists in San Francisco bought them when they first came out. Y'all might be surprised how many great albums from SF artists of that time included tracks from those recorders!

Oooh... I'm sounding old... *sigh*....

stv

[Spruce]

"It won't be as quiet as a digital recorder but somehow that doesn't bother me. "

Man, I love "that" sound of tape hiss right before the kick-off on old recordings...
It's probably subliminal, but it just sounds so musical to me.....

"It also functions as an audio interface if you want to record directly to the computer. "

Can you elaborate on this?
My Masterlink just went down, and I currently have no way of getting my stuff to CD....
I have Toast/Jam loaded in my Mac G5, and am thinking of mastering in the box, but need a way to get the stuff to computer...

Do you think the H4 is a good interface?

"Oooh... I'm sounding old..."

Yeah, it's sad to think that a whole recording generation has never smelled the smell of tape hitting the heads....

I just bought an old Teac 8-track analog machine with zero hours on it, and I plan on getting a lot of use out of it....

There are a lot of great analog machines kicking around out there right now for not a lot of money...

[TonyP]

I pretty much learned how to play on a 244. Did demo's on it that got us many jobs. I sold the 244 years ago to a singer songwriter guy and he's still using it. Done many a home brew tape that he sells at gigs and to friends. I didn't even notice much hiss on the 244. Sold it so I could get the Akai MG 1212 12trk tape over 15yrs ago.
Unfortunately it's old and sick and I'm not in the mood to pay to have it fixed. But it's another one that a LOT of albums were recorded on it. Rush, Primus, several jazz albums, etc..

[steve V. johnson]

Bruce quoted and replied, thus:

"It won't be as quiet as a digital recorder but somehow that doesn't bother me. "

>> Man, I love "that" sound of tape hiss right before the kick-off on old recordings...
It's probably subliminal, but it just sounds so musical to me..... <<

There were these psychological tests done (I think in connection with Mix Magazine's House Ear Institute), after CDs had been the common consumer recording medium for a while, and the psychs concluded that folks felt "comforted" by the analog tape/vinyl record noises coming up before the music. They said that it suggested a sense of space, not open space, but like confirming the presence and size of a room, a defined space. A context for what was to happen next. They didn't find anxiety, per se, as the converse, just the absence of the slightly heightened sense of well-being.

I don't miss the tape or vinyl noise, but it seems that there's a good deal more significance to the spacing
between cuts on a CD nowadays than there used to be... That timing is much more of an active dramatic
element to many of the recording musicians I know than it used to be.

"It also functions as an audio interface if you want to record directly to the computer. "

<< Can you elaborate on this?

I haven't tried this, but I think that for some of these small digital recorders, the USB port is active when
the machine is recording, so not only will it store the audio to the internal SD chip, but it flows out the USB
port also. So if you have recording software on another computer that will 'see' a USB input, you may be able
to record that input via that software at the same time.

It could be an either/or situation as well, that if the USB port is active it may not record to the internal storage,
but -only- spit it down the wire...

>> My Masterlink just went down, and I currently have no way of getting my stuff to CD....
I have Toast/Jam loaded in my Mac G5, and am thinking of mastering in the box, but need a way
to get the stuff to computer... <<

From what device, Bruce?

"Oooh... I'm sounding old..."

>> Yeah, it's sad to think that a whole recording generation has never smelled the smell of tape hitting the heads....

Some places, the Recording Workshop in Chilicothe, Ohio, for one, will still teach tape editing.
Tape recorders are great but to keep the professional ones working well is indeed labor intensive. We would align
them before and after every session.

>> I just bought an old Teac 8-track analog machine with zero hours on it, and I plan on getting a lot of use out of it....

Zero hours?!?!? Astounding. Open reel, right? 1/2" tape? Kewl.

1/2" tape is a great, great medium. The vast majority of major label records made today are mixed to
1/2" analog tape. In fact, most of them are made, at least in part, on 2" analog tape. Unfortunately the
cost of that work, in time, tech and tape costs are some part of why the major labels are dying off...

>> There are a lot of great analog machines kicking around out there right now for not a lot of money...

I have a 1970 3M M56 16-track, 2" tape machine that I really, really want to sell. Just ask me about it.
It's a sweetie.

Now this... amazing... I just had a phone call from a friend whose 16 y.o. son is a truly mad musician
and she says that his greatest desire at the moment is a four-track cassette recorder, so he can sound Old
School. Now I have to go and rummage thru my storage and see if I still have one for him...

*sigh*

Amazing... synchronicity...

stv

[steve V. johnson]

TonyP,

I did about ... oh, gee... maybe 20 records on an AKAI 1212! Odd machine, but it told the truth and got the work done.
The transport controls of the one I had weren't smooth nor accurate, I could never trust the looping function for overdubs,
it would drift madly. It was a loaner from a songwriter. I lost it when he bet it in a huge poker game (along with money
and other stuff for a five-figure total) and lost.

These things were also very popular in N.Calif/Bay Area when they first came out. All of the Huey Lewis band had 'em. The mid-80's were a great time, the first big boom in home/personal recording hardware. They made the Tascam 388, with its 1/4" tape reels, look primitive, but the funny Japanese videotapes that the Akais used were pretty weird, too. The Akais made it real easy
to use time code to lock a bunch of devices together. Locking audio and midi devices together was a big thing to do then, too.

Oh, my... reminiscing...

stv

[TonyP]

yeah, the 1212 is kinda like an old English car, when it's right it's wonderful, when it's not, woa.
For all of you who want some background and want to see some stuff that's just plain 'ol fun is get Les Paul: Chasing Sound . Then on a whim I got Tom Dowd & the Language of Music. I got them both on Netflix. After I saw it I was totally embarrassed that I didn't know who Tom Dowd was. Both of the flix were really well done, lots of music and interviews and both cover the evolution of recording. My wife watched and enjoyed both of them, even asked me to get some more http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[Spruce]

"I don't miss the tape or vinyl noise, but it seems that there's a good deal more significance to the spacing
between cuts on a CD nowadays than there used to be... #That timing is much more of an active dramatic
element to many of the recording musicians I know than it used to be."

Well, I really miss the days of the psycadelic crossfade....
Think "Peppers" or "Baxters"....
I'm a crossfade junkie as a result of growing up in that era, and I love them to death....
Something you don't hear on a typical bluegrass recording.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Speaking of analog 4-tracks and crossfades, check this (http://yourmothershouldknow03.blogspot.com/search?q=sgt.+pepper+multitracks) out...
You can download each of the individual 4 tracks of "Sgt. Peppers", and it's just an incredible listen....
I've always wanted to have "Peppers" in all (and each) of it's 4-track glory, and now it's out there....
Or at least 4 songs of it....

"From what device, Bruce?"

I'm still tracking onto Tascam DA38s. #
Love those machines....

I'm recording onto tracks 3-24 (usually 3-16), then mixing onto 1/2. #
I'm able to adjust my mixes on the fly, which works for me...
Then the mixes go to my Masterlink for ordering and "mastering", then to CD....

I don't know anyone else working this way, so it's kind of a unique situation....

I'll go to computer someday (or track to analog and then dump it into the box), but for now the DA38s are working for me...

[mjblcb509mando]

The old equipment is still the best. I used to have a Teac Reel to reel for recording, but alas it died a slow and painful death.

I still use an old Marantz Amplifier from the 1970's on my home stereo. It has a mid-range knob that you can't find on most equipment today. I ditched a relatively new Yamaha amp to go back to the Marantz. I'm trying to keep it going but there is a minor problem with the volume knob (short that creates feedback into one of the speakers).

[Griffis]

I am on board with Spruce on this one. I started out with a cassette Tascam and used it for years and years. Finally I decided to take the plunge to digital and I went through three different digital mutlitrackers, the last one was considered the top of the line in digital portable multitracking. I didn't care for it at all.

I went back and got another cassette Portastudio.

I have a pretty simple setup-- my acoustic instruments, a couple of Shure SM-57 mics, and when it comes to mixing down, I have a standalone Harman Kardon CD burner (it's a stereo-component kind, not compter-interfaced at all)-- I just mix from the 4 track machine directly onto CD.

Heck, I've even made some recordings that didn't require overdubs directly onto a $20 Wal-Mart microcassette recorder or a $30 Radio Shack tape recorder and burned those straight onto CD. You have to be able to deal with a little hiss and "room noise..."

I know I sound like a Luddite, and I am when it comes to some things, but bear in mind I have a long history of computer recording as well. For a few years I was into experimental electronic music, so I've worked at both ends of the spectrum. I prefer the cassette recording for a number of reasons, sound being one of the major ones.

Obviously if you end up with a recording on a CD, the music has been digitized at some point, but I like to do that last minute so that there are some analog layers before it gets to that point.

I recently discovered a place that presses 78 rpm 10" records. For my next recording project I hope to bypass digital altogether and send in a mixed cassette to the plant and have a 78 pressed up. If I can get one or two of my buddies to get in on it with me. No overdubs, no digital; old school stylee.

[bradeinhorn]

i'll throw in support for the h4 - i am a total dummy when it comes to recording stuff, and i was able to make a decent sounding 4 track recording (guitar/mando/voice/harmony) right on the device (with a normal set of headphones) without involving the computer or any outside mics, the first day i experimented with it.