"green" woods

[Pete Braccio]

Hi all,

For some reason, on the drive into work today I started wondering about what were the most environmentally sustainable woods to build instruments with. I know that some species of Spruce are being over forested. Brazilian Rosewood is under import control. I believe that Maple and Sycamore grow fast and are abundant, but I can't be sure that is correct. I have no clue about Mahogany, Walnut, Redwood, Cocobolo, Ebony, or of the various availabilities of different species of these woods.

So, what woods are abundant (and replaceable)? Also, have you builders thought of building (and marketing) "green" mandolins (or guitars)?

Pete

[bradeinhorn]

bamboo!

[Eric F.]

There's always the cricket. (http://www.condino.com/cricket.html)

[texaspaul]

I know that several guitars have marketed as coming from relacable woods, "Green wood" instruments. Martin has a line that touts replacable tone woods. Yamaha has made some from Bamboo, Seagul of cherrywood,, and then there is the Mix carbon fiber mandolins.

[mandolinplucker]

Fly in an airplane and look down. The vast amount of what you see is green- thats trees you see. There are still a bunch of them and by the time all of them are cut the new ones that are growing now will be "old growth". This world has taken care of itself for millions of years through warming and cooling and melting and freezing and tree cutting so I don't think that a few mandolin tops and backs are going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things. I worry about more practical things like how much fuel cost to haul my camper to the next BG festival.

[woodwizard]

Bamboo mandolin http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Are you kidding ? I thought bamboo was completly hollow.

[sebastiaan56]

Pete,

Down here in sunny Aus the issues relate to timber being sold that is illegally harvested. Some examples are Teak, Indonesian Rosewood and Timor Ebony. A lot of Australian species are almost unobtainable such as King Billy Pine due to over exploitation. The search is on for more indigenous tonewoods.

I like the look of the Cricket but surely there is a limited supply of 70 Douglas Fir, other solutions are needed. There are steps underway to ensure our timber resources are still available for future generations. See http://www.fsc.org/en/

Sebastiaan

[Pete Braccio]

Hi Tony,

Not all tress make good tonewood. Please take a look at this article from the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/business/smallbusiness/07sbiz.html), this one from Acoustic Guitar (http://www.acousticguitar.com/article/default.aspx?articleid=7908), and the CITES web site (http://www.fws.gov/citestimber/timber/treespecies.html) which lists wood no longer allowed to be imported since they are close to extinction to see that there is a problem.

I'm just trying to find out how big the problem is and what can be done.

Thanks,
Pete

[Keith Erickson]

Pete,

FWIW- All wood is sustainable and just by it's very nature is a renewable resource. We've used it for thousands upon thousands of years and trees just keep coming back.

Even if the President of the United States wrote an executive order demanding that every tree on the planet be chopped down; it would be (not only a ridiculous task) an impossible task that would never be achieved.

This whole idea of sustainable woods and environmentally sound harvesting is a complete hoax and a fraud. Rationing of any commodity unrealistically skews the market price higher while also creating a black market.

If the market was to be left to those who know that "wood business", we wouldn't have to worry about shortages because there would be those who would make sure that the woods in demand would make it to market.

[Fretbear]

The Amazonian rainforest (the lungs of our planet) is not "coming back", but it sure is going somewhere. The unconscionable burning of it to raise methane dispensing beef cattle for fast food is a crime against humanity. I agree that our mandolin tops and backs are not going to be a big contributor to the tipping point....

[dirty harry]

Top: Redwood. Back, neck and sides: Mahogany

[Alex of the North]

Mandolinplucker, you really need to read up on the ecological histories of Easter Island, Haiti and Iceland.

[mandroid]

sorry Redwood has been over cut already .

'Avenue of the Giants' is a view corridor backed up by clear cuts .

there is a "Smartwood" certification process, but I don't know the criteria.

The stuff that the Force 12 Gale blew down,
the first week of this month on the WA & OR coast is OK ,
it's already down.

[Jim Rowland]

It should be verboten that any instrument wood be harvested in the US or its possessions,and further that none can be imported for the purpose. This,in addition to changing to them little corkscrewy light bulbs, will save the planet. I'm sure that all of our offshore competition will follow suit after seeing our fine example. And we don't have to use that high-priced carbon fiber either. A nice vinyl mandolin or guitar is all you need if you're a truly sensitive and wonderful person. I'm talking about recycled vinyl,of course. I could go on and on,but I'm sure I would offend somebody.
Jim

[mandroid]

Oh, And a Lot of Greek wood [it was not so rocky and barren back then] went into ships and didn't grow back from the bottom of the Med. ditto English oaks and what ever drift wood that used to be the Spanish Armada.

shipbuilding in steel began when good timber was getting scarce, shipwrights used head off to a nearby forrest to get just the right shape for the keel, grown in the curve they needed.

then they had to go deeper into the forest , etc.

[Pete Braccio]

Amazing "points of view" so far.

I'd still like to hear from some luthiers though. Maybe Spruce could chime in about wood availability also.

Pete

[Spruce]

"There are still a bunch of them and by the time all of them are cut the new ones that are growing now will be "old growth"."

In terms of most conifers (which is where the sound we want comes from), they'll be trees of the same species, but they will not display "old growth" characteristics, which is exactly what we need to make fine musical instruments....

"Top: Redwood."

Totally non-sustainable....
Only 3-4% of the original stands still exist, and the second growth (as mentioned above) is worthless for our needs....
Yeah, you can use reclaimed stuff, but the source is finite...

[I]"So, what woods are abundant (and replaceable)?"

For my green mando, I'll go with genetically-engineered fiddleback maple (I'm growing quite a few trees as we speak) for the back and sides. #They'll be ready to roll in 75 years or so, and should have the same figure as the best maple I ever milled...

For the top, give me good ol' Red Spruce. #
It's the only species of conifer I've harvested for instruments that came from second-growth trees....

So, I guess ol' Lloyd had it right all those years ago.... # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Pete Braccio]

Hi Spruce,

Thanks for chiming in. How about fingerboard material or alternated back woods? Do you know if people are looking into those?

I just found a thread that covers some of the issues (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=44511) that I am concerned about, but doesn't address all of them.

Pete

[Spruce]

"How about fingerboard material.....?"

Tough one...
We're talking exotics here for the most part, and it's my understanding that most exotics are not really "sustainable"...

I just got back from Hawaii, and it was sure fun to see all those koa trees growing like the hairs on a dog's back on the side of the volcano, totally protected from harvesting....
Saw some monsters...

[Spruce]

Another....

[james condino]

The idea in the original post has rattled around in my head since I first started building. Yesterday someone asked me what I thought about old growth western red cedar and I gave them my honest answer: It is my favorite tree to take a nice long nap under in a healthy grove in the forest....

I recognize that I am part of the diminishing forests problem- perhaps more so than others because of the fact that my instruments appear in a number of magazines, all over the web, and in video format. I use a lot of exotic and visually graphic woods. Nearly half of the budding lutherie students I get all look at my website and want to build a wild striped ebony instrument.

That was part of the reason I built the Cricket- to show folks that you can build a great, viable instrument using #generally discarded and junk materials. It is my personal favorite and has a voice all of its own. Bob Taylor has built his pallet guitar, Benedetto the construction grade knotty pine archtop, Torres' paper machet guitar, the famous churchdoor series of classical guitars. All worked and sounded great, but the working luthier's reality is that #people pay more for highly figured and exotic woods. Not many people get excited by showing off their simple mandolin made out of boring materials. A lot of it is market driven.

We can also take a proactive stance. I honestly don't believe that there is a shortage of materials for the individual builder. Sometimes you have to work a bit harder. I have traveled all over the world to sometimes walk away with a few choice boards or a single log. Next week I'm headed out into the Pisgah forest to hand cut some incredible naturally fallen red spruce (yes you can call me at the shop and I'll share it...).

When I buy materials from someone else, I always take great care to buy from somone like Bruce Harvey who can give me a detailed history of where the wood came from (sometimes he has names and stories for indiviual trees). I regularly support conservation and reforestation practices; I have replanted some of my favorite species. When you buy an African blackwood series mandolin, $100 goes to the African Blackwood Conservation project in your name. The list goes on.

I'll say it again: I'm part of the problem, but I also work to try to balance out my share. If your only concern is getting the cheapest price you can, then somwhere the balance gets shifted. A large production factory trying to crank out 100s or 1000s of instruments a month most often doesn't have the resources or ability to focus on those details.

Talk to folks, be passionate about your instruments and the rest of life; raise a ruckus if you need to.

j.
www.condino.com

[sunburst]

FWIW- All wood is sustainable and just by it's very nature is a renewable resource. We've used it for thousands upon thousands of years and trees just keep coming back.

Good to hear! I'll be cutting down all those mature
American chestnuts that keep popping up in my way
with a clean conscience!
There are plenty of other examples of trees that are
commercially extinct because of human activity. Old
growth doesn't just keep coming back. There has to be an
intact forest for centuries for that to happen. If there
had been this many of us with this many chainsaws cutting
trees for thousands of years, who knows what we'd have to
work with now.

Even if the President of the United States wrote an executive order demanding that every tree on the planet be chopped down; it would be (not only a ridiculous task) an impossible task that would never be achieved.

I know that some people seem to think the pres of the US
is in control of the whole planet, but I suspect
his decree that all trees be cut would be ignored in
most places.

This whole idea of sustainable woods and environmentally sound harvesting is a complete hoax and a fraud. Rationing of any commodity unrealistically skews the market price higher while also creating a black market.

That's so far off "it ain't even wrong". Wood may be a
commodity in the view of many, but forests are not. A
forest is more than boards.

If the market was to be left to those who know that "wood business", we wouldn't have to worry about shortages because there would be those who would make sure that the woods in demand would make it to market.

If history is any indication, they'll make it to market
until they're too scarce to market.
Your post indicates ignorance of environmental science and ecology, and that is one of the problems with older business models. They don't take sustainability into account, they don't take long range economic impact fully into account, and they are short sighted.

[Joel Spaulding]

James, nice post. You really bridged the gap between the extremes of opinion previously expressed. We as consumers of wood are part of the "problem". We can stop using wood altogether but that does not, as a previous poster noted, guarantee that a particular species of tree might not disappear, despite our best efforts to be environmentally responsible. Pests, fire, weather - etc, can all threaten the continued existence of both rare tonewoods and "scrub" trees alike.

keep up the fine work - Joel

BTW - am very much enjoying your column in Mandolin magazine - hope to trek over the Smokies on our next trip to Gatlinburg and see your work up close.

[Michael Lewis]

Mr. Condino, I like your perspective and attitude. The world would stand a much better chance of surviving the human population if more folks thought this way.

I use quite a bit of balck walnut, which is a fairly fast growing tree and locally available here in northern California. Most of the Sitka spruce in my storage is from trees that were blown down, not cut green. The same goes for the redwood I have. Also, western big leaf maple makes up a considerable portion of my stash of tonewoods. These are by far the majority of materials that go into the instruments I make. That said, I do have a small stash of brazilian rosewood that was supposedly cut many years ago, and a pile of ebony fingerboards. So, though not entirely "smart wood", most of my instruments are mostly pretty smart.

I try to use locally available materials as much as reasonable, which is most of the time. I often think about not having good tonewoods available, and what I would do. The Mad Max approach comes to mind, that to make an instrument you will have to recycle used materials to make it. This may not even contain any real wood. Ingenuity will reign surpeme and uniformity will be out the window.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Pete Braccio]

James, Spruce, Sunburst, and Michael,

Thanks for for bringing some enlightenment to this thread. I was shocked by the direction that it was initially heading off to.

James, I didn't realize that there was a "green" component to the Cricket (besides the color). I'll have to take another look at your web site.

Michael, I specifically mentioned Walnut in my first post based on the mandolin that you had up at Strawberry this fall. The wood was gorgeous but that paled in comparison to the tone. Just beautiful.

Pete

[brunello97]

This whole idea of sustainable woods and environmentally sound harvesting is a complete hoax and a fraud. Rationing of any commodity unrealistically skews the market price higher while also creating a black market.

If the market was to be left to those who know that "wood business", we wouldn't have to worry about shortages because there would be those who would make sure that the woods in demand would make it to market.


Wow. You are a dangerous man.

Mick

[first string]

Yeah, I don't want this to become contentious or to veer into the political (as that is not the purpose of this forum), but being that it relates directly to instruments I would like to say that the idea that nothing we do can effect the planet is absolutely false and counter to everything science and empirical evidence tells us. Frankly I agree with Mick; a mentality that says that we can continue to cut down or burn as much forest as we like is extremely dangerous. Trees are important for a myriad of reasons, many of which are far more significant than the fact that we need them for tonewood. But being that this is the mandolincafe, I'd like to say that while a given tree may never go extinct because of instrument builders, it may very well disappear because of other human activity and leave those of us who want rosewood backs, ebony fingerboards, or old growth spruce tops, high and dry. If we don't start modifying our behavior as it regards the environment we all had better get used to playing carbon fiber mandos...Of course I imagine that will be the least of our worries, but that is a discussion for another place...

[Hans]

Bruce I can't wait 75 years! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

While I am all for limiting cutting and sustaining growth, I just don't think my "footprint" makes that much difference. Yes, I do use some small bits of ebony, but when I look at a maple floor, I'm just not worried about 1-1/2 board foot of maple in an instrument. Were I to use quantities such as Martin, Gibson, Collings, Taylor, etc, I would be seriously looking into other species.
John Mick and Alex of the North, I agree. Thinking like that is dangerous. Uncontrolled greed leeds to diminished resources. This world is finite, not infinately renewable. When I was a cabinetmaker, we installed a kitchen in a "house" that had a patio deck made out of an exotic hardwood. We were appalled.
Let's have a little reverence for wood.

[Keith Erickson]

That was part of the reason I built the Cricket- to show folks that you can build a great, viable instrument using #generally discarded and junk materials.
James, That cricket is a sharp looking mandolin. #But let's be honest about it too. #Building and selling the cricket doesn't do anything to make sure that trees are produced, cultivated and sent to market.

I mean you know disrespect but lets be honest....

...you're selling someone a mandolin that makes people feel good about themselves that they are doing something to save the planet. #

By buying your mandolin, that person can look down at the rest of us and tell us "I'm saving the planet and what are doing?".

In the end, that wood from that mandolin was still from a tree that was cut down and those raw materials were still mined from somewhere.

I'm sorry but I'm still not buying the mumbo jumbo #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[kestrel]

"This whole idea of sustainable woods and environmentally sound harvesting is a complete hoax and a fraud. Rationing of any commodity unrealistically skews the market price higher while also creating a black market."...

That's so far off "it ain't even wrong". Wood may be a
commodity in the view of many, but forests are not. A
forest is more than boards.

Well said, John! Reading comments like that from young people, makes me glad that I'm as old as I am, and won't be
around to see the results of such thinking.

The Chestnut Blight was discovered around 1904, and by the time I was ten-years-old - 1948 - there wasn't a living American Chestnut tree left in Pennsylvania (anywhere in the country). Forty-four-years - gone! The American Elm has been pushed toward extinction since "accidental" introduction of the Dutch Elm Disease, in 1930. Now, the Eastern Hemlock is well on it's way to extinction, because of the introduction of the Wooly Adelgid brought into Richmond, VA, in 1911 - by one person. See: New Yorker Magazine, Dec. 10, 2007, "A Death in the Forest".

Of course "building a few mandolins" won't, alone, be responsible for denuding the earth's forests, but neither was the killing a few passenger pigeons for one's supper, by itself, responsible for the extinction of a species that was at one time reported to exist in flocks a-mile wide that would take three-days to pass over. It was supplying the "demand of the market" that eradicated them.

We may be "an exponent of man's highest creative spirit", but we'd best be cautious of what we are creating in the name of supplying the market.

[amowry]

One of the reasons I chose mandolin as my instrument of choice to build is because they use such small amounts of wood. I often see an engelmann or sitka around here and contemplate how that one tree could probably last me a lifetime. So, I agree with Hans in that regard. The fact that mandolins use mostly domestic woods is great, too. In the northwest or east of the US the bulk of our woods can come from within a few hundred mile radius. I think buying locally whenever possible is the best way to keep tabs on the affect that your purchase is having. As James mentioned, I often know exactly where my woods came from, and with bigleaf it's typically windfall from someone's backyard.

[cooper4205]

are there more woods like Lyptus (http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/ourbusinesses/buildingproducts/lyptus/) being developed? I've noticed that Martin has made a few guitar backs with it; it's supposed to be similar to maple but looks like mahogany (I guess).

[Keith Erickson]

Your post indicates ignorance of environmental science and ecology, and that is one of the problems with older business models. They don't take sustainability into account, they don't take long range economic impact fully into account, and they are short sighted.
John,

With all due respect...

...your post has proved that we all have our different religious views and we'll agree to disagree on the religion of environmentalism.

If harvesting wood is so bad, that let's stop building homes, mandolins, guitars and furniture and whatever else we use wood for in our daily lives http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Someone brought up Pennsylvania earlier and I have to be honest with you, PA is the most heavily wood state I have ever visited (especially in northern PA)

I'm justing bringing a different perspective to this whole idea that being "green" is not so different than not being green http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Keith Erickson]

Wow. You are a dangerous man.

Mick
Mick,

...you should see me when I'm around my 11 month old son. I'm become a lovable little teddy bear http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

...and my wife.... Maybe she married me because she thought that picking the mandolin made me a rough and tumble guy http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[cooper4205]

If harvesting wood is so bad, that let's stop building homes, mandolins, guitars and furniture and whatever else we use wood for in our daily lives http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
no body is saying harvesting wood is bad, it's the irresponsible harvesting that is.

And where to you get the idea that environmentalism is a religion - a way of thought and action, yes. A religion, no.

[Keith Erickson]

And where to you get the idea that environmentalism is a religion - a way of thought and action, yes. A religion, no.
You're reaction to me speaks volumes and so do some comments on this board. #I don't believe in it and I will never believe in it. #

NEWSFLASH: At this very moment 70% percent of the United States is under snow and/or ice. #And somehow I'm still suppose to believe in global warming http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

20 + plus years of hearing this is like listening fingernails on a chalkboard.

[kestrel]

FWIW - I recently finished my first mandolin build, a flat-top (induced arch), tear-drop, that I built almost entirely of re-cycled woods. The western red cedar top is of left-over siding from my buddies house that we built twenty-years ago; the walnut peg-head overlay, back-strap, and inlays are from a tree that he and I had to fell forty-years-ago where we built his shop; the rock maple neck, back, and sides, mahogany blocks, poplar linings, and spruce braces came from cut-off that I buy from a local cabinet shop, for twenty-bucks a pick-up load. The bridge and tail-piece were salvaged from my first mandolin, and the nut and end-pin were made from some ebony I found, years ago, in a box of junk that I had bought at a sale. I did purchase the ebony fret-board, fret-wire, Elite tuning machines, and Jazz Mando J-11 strings.

There are a few first-timer mistakes, and I want to make some adjustments to the action, but it looks better than passable, and sounds really rich and mellow - very loud and resonant.

For my second - and more serious - go, I am planning to build a mandola - also mostly with recycled wood ,possibly using some Lyptus that I got from the cabinet shop, and an Engleman Spruce top - guitar top seconds that I got from a supplier here on the forum.

Have any of you ever used Lyptus? My only reservations about it is that it seems to be extremely heavy. I've not weighed it, but it feels to be nearly twice the weight of an equally sized piece of maple. It may make for a very heavy instrument.

[oldwave maker]

Once upon a time, down at the mouth of oldwave holler, there lived a small forest of catclaw acacia(acacia gregii) trees. Normally found as a small gnarly bush with inward curving thorns to rip your jeans, some of these trees had 18" diameter trunks, no doubt because of upstream hydrogeology. The rancher who owned the land decided that it would make a few fine trailer sites, so he got the USDA soil conservation service (your tax dollars at work!) to pay 80% of the cost of dozing the forest into a pile so he could level the alluvial fan. I rescued a couple of trunk chunks for mandos, the trailers now sit empty on a gravelpile covered by tumbleweeds. Progress? Climate change and ranchetteization ensure that gone is gone in my backyard.
Show me another catclaw forest in the southwest where I can harvest a trunk that size and I'll make you a mando like this:

[sunburst]

By buying your mandolin, that person can look down at the rest of us and tell us "that they are saving the planet".
Perhaps some may feel that way, but in fact, the planet will be just fine no matter what we do. By conserving and using resources wisely we're just trying to assure that we can still live on the planet.


A couple of things.

phantom4, your mention of the passenger pigeon is a good example. The way I understand it, their extinction was not simply because of over-hunting, but was mostly brought about by the cutting of virtually all of the old growth forests of the eastern US, their former habitat. Like I said earlier, a forest is more than boards.

Andrew, that is some of the same reasoning that led me into building mostly mandolins and few guitars. The supply of good grades of maple wood can be sustained with good management practices, though warming of the environment may ultimately push the range of some species north.

The impact on the market, the economy, and "the planet", of the wood used by all of lutherie is relatively small compared to many other uses of wood, but that's no reason not to respect and conserve the resources we use.


...And Keith, science and environmentalism are not religions. The posting guidelines rightly prohibit discussions of religion here, I think it is wrong of you to bring it up in this discussion.
There can be much to learn from this discussion about the relationship between mandolin building and the use and conservation of the materials involved if the thread is not shut down because of it being steered toward a discussion of religion.

[JEStanek]

Strictly speaking, environmentalism, isn't a religion as there is no Supreme Being associated with it. #It is a science and at worst could be considered a philosophy that some disagree with. #Green-ness is certainly a philosophy based upon peoples observations of their impact on the earth and upon peer reviewed data generated by the scientific community that impacts how individuals interact with the planet. #

In terms of the OP whether this philosophy is misguided or factual isn't the point. #If someone would like to have an instrument made of renewable or sustainable woods why fight them over it. #If someone should build an instrument out of reclaimed timber (old siding, wood recovered from the bottom of resiviors, windfalls, etc) why fight them over it? #I will certainly take the words of builders and tonewood suppliers at face value and not suspect a hidden agenda on their part.

Just because someone is sweet and nice doesn't mean they don't have ideas that could be considered dangerous. #Folks who know me know I (and my wife and kids consider me a reasonbly good guy) have had plenty of dangerous/wrong ideas in my time. #I believe this is true for all of us. I'm thankful that I have had a chance to survive some and learn from others. There's still work for me to do.

Jamie

[McCandolin]

I know bamboo was touched upon, and is considered unworthy because of its porousness, but ive been researching bamboo (in order to make green longboard skateboards actualy) and there is a company that uses high pressure and heat to compress bamboo in to extremely dense flooring that is "harder than oak" i dont know if it could be bent or carved, but the company is called plyboo and that particular product is called strand, i think. Might be a completely different proccess, but it could be fun to experiment with.

[tree]

Sustainability is a concept that has been around at least as long as the early 80s (probably longer, I'm just too lazy to look it up), when I was in Forestry School at NCSU. #It was taught as a management strategy in Silviculture and Forest Economics classes.

Too bad neither our culture nor our economy seem to connect very much with the concept of sustainability. #I'm afraid it is human nature not to realize what you've got until you've lost it.

I'm interested in and piddle around with different types of wood that currently goes into the municiple waste stream - stuff like Bradford pear (Pyrus sp. - who knew it could have curly figure?) dogwood (Cornus florida), various landscape maples (Acer sp.), Chinese evergreen oak (Quercus myrsinifolia), persimmon (Diospyros virginiana), just to name a few. #There is a whole world of interesting stuff out there, and anything that you can save from putting in the landfill, especially if you find a good use for it, has double benefits.

[kestrel]

You're right, John, it was a combination of both, but either way, it was market driven. We can't even fathom the impact of the element of deforestation. How many other species declined, were pushed to the edge of extinction, or in fact did disappear. You said before that "a forest is more than boards". There's a comment at the end of the New Yorker article I mentioned earlier: "When an old hemlock falls, a world passes away." These things are not merely esthetic. Numerous life saving medicines have been made from recently discovered plant life. Many of these plants would cease to exist if their ecosystem were removed.

I live in the Pennsylvania Appalachians, Small lumbering operations are very important to the local economy. Selective cutting is now the norm, and it is doubtful that these small operators are having any more impact on the environment than the mandolin building community. It wasn't that many years ago, though, when a lumber operator would move into a woods, and when he left, nothing was standing - anything that had been "in the way" was lying rotting on the ground.

I suppose there is some hope, but we certainly need to do some serious educating, or perhaps we will be building future instruments from what we can dig from land-fills.

[markishandsome]

Someone brought up Pennsylvania earlier and I have to be honest with you, PA is the most heavily wood state I have ever visited (especially in northern PA)

Earth to Kieth: nobody here (but you) is talking about wholesale eradication of all species of trees. Folks are worried about a few select species such as brazilian rosewood and old-growth redwood that have been over-forested and are now rare if not extinct. Your choice to ignore the facts and science sounds a lot more like a religion to me than environmentalism. The sad thing is I'm sure the browbeating you're receiving here will only further entrench your misguided and dangerous ideas. Stop trying to win some stupid argument and start using your brain.

Changing gears...in the specific case of ebony, my understanding is that it's not actually a rare or endangered species, it's expensive simply because it's heavy and has to be shipped by boat across the atlantic. But that's just what the guy from House of Hardwoods told me...

[markishandsome]

Oh, and I have a plyboo peppermill!

[JEStanek]

With regards to ebony for fingerboards... I have a Weber Sweet Pea that has a maple board. Aside from it being white and non traditional, are there concerns with the use of less than "very" dense woods for fingerboards? Will the maple be more subject to humidity / temp fluctuations than ebony or rosewood? If pearwood (used for old Gibson headstock overlays IIRC) can be dyed black with india ink could a similar staining be done on paler hardwoods for fingerboards for a more traditional look or would the wood then have to be finished to prevent bleeding?

I have read threads on the virtues of maple bridges and if local maples can be used more an instrument could be built of more locally available timbers or at least faster growing more readily replaced woods.

Jamie

[Hans]

[quote=8_String_Keith,Dec. 20 2007, 10:41]NEWSFLASH: At this very moment 70% percent of the United States is under snow and/or ice. #And somehow I'm still suppose to believe in global warming http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif[/quote

Yikes! #My refridgerator is cold too! # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Greg H.]

I know bamboo was touched upon, and is considered unworthy because of its porousness, but ive been researching bamboo (in order to make green longboard skateboards actualy) and there is a company that uses high pressure and heat to compress bamboo in to extremely dense flooring that is "harder than oak"

They would have to compress it quite a bit. All the bamboo flooring I've seen is so soft that if a woman wears high heels it leave a mark. Consequently, I can't imagine something that soft making a usable tone wood (can't say how it would do for skateboards though).

[sunburst]

Will the maple be more subject to humidity / temp fluctuations than ebony or rosewood?
Actually, the main things ebony has going for it are hardness, smoothness, and blackness. It's a very unstable wood, and hard to get in good quartersawn pieces. Indian rosewood is much more stable than ebony, but not as hard or stiff, and the large pores often lead to premature fingerboard wear. Brazilian rosewood is better than Indian, but, well it's got other problems with supply and such. Maple is fairly hard and smooth with small pores, but it gets grungy and dirty looking because of the light color.

Most hard woods that are stable (very generally, hardness and stability are at odds), have small pores, finish to a smooth surface, are stiff, and don't chip too easily are usable for fingerboards, but a dark color helps with appearance as the 'board ages.

[JEStanek]

Thanks, John. I try and have clean hands with the Sweat Pea but the gunk is easier to notice. So if I understand you correctly, Weber made a fine choice for the performance of the maple as a fingerboard i just deal with the looks... I can live with that! Would woods like walnut also be sutiable (from a fairly hard and smooth with small pores point of view) for fingerboards?

Jamie

Jamie

[laddy jota]

I like to build experimental models from salvage lumber. One dream is to build a living mandolin from a maple tree with a sizable knot hole. Just glue on a sound board and graft a neck on the side at about playing height from the ground. No need to cut cut it down. Of course, I could not travel with it. No smiley face because I'm not kidding.
ps. Scientists say that the earth has about 2 billion years until the moon's orbit degrades throwing the earth's rotation off and interrupted the tides and seasons as we know them. The trees will be toast them. I wonder what species will dominate when that time comes. Not ours.

[rimspoke]

MY WIFE IS FROM THE BACK WOODS OF BRASIL .
ON ONE TRIP TO PARANA , TOUCANTINS , WE STAYED THERE FOR ABOUT A WEEK AND GOT
TO SEE SOME INTERESTING THINGS . MOST OF THE HOUSES HAVE THE TILE ROOFS BUT WHEN
YOU LOOK ON THE INSIDE STRUCTURE , MOST ARE FRAMED WITH MAHOGANY !

ALSO , WE WENT TO THE PALMAS RIVER ( IT HAS SINCE BEEN DAMMED ) THEY HAD BUILT
A FOOT BRIDGE FROM MAHOGANY AS WELL . THE PLANKS THEY USED WERE 12-14 INCHES WIDE
10 FEET LONG AND TWO INCHES THICK ! IT MUST HAVE BEEN 200 FEET LONG .

THEY USE MAHOGANY THERE LIKE WE USE PINE .

[sunburst]

Would woods like walnut also be sutiable (from a fairly hard and smooth with small pores point of view) for fingerboards?
The eastern black walnut and west coast varieties I've worked with are pretty soft and the pores are fairly large. The walnut fingerboards I've seen didn't hold frets very well. Walnut is way down the list of woods that I think would make good fingerboards.

[markishandsome]

If pearwood (used for old Gibson headstock overlays IIRC) can be dyed black with india ink could a similar staining be done on paler hardwoods for fingerboards for a more traditional look or would the wood then have to be finished to prevent bleeding?

I think (maybe wrong) that some double bass fingerboards are done this way. I made mando with a curly walnut fingerboard. Looks great!

[JEStanek]

Thanks again John!

Jamie

[Alex of the North]

Keith, can your invisible hand of the free market whip me up a few thousand board feet of Brazilian Rosewood? I think there's demand for it, and I sure would like to import some and sell it!

[Spruce]

"Bruce I can't wait 75 years!"

Well, Hans, you essentially "waited" much longer than that for every stick of wood that you've turned into your wonderful mandolins....
You just didn't know you were waiting.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

With that in mind, isn't it time for fiddleback maple "plantations" to sprout up all over North America?
One could genetically clone maple trees with the most Loar-like figure ever encountered in a tree (it's pretty easy to do), and plant 'em by the thousands....

Do the same for quilted on the Left Coast...
And koa in Hawai'i....

This is essentially what happened with the "Claro" walnut that Michael mentioned earlier. #
The figured wood was grafted onto English (is that right?) rootstock for agricultural reasons, and thus the figure was (accidently) spread all over the Chico area of California....

Again, conifers are a different kettle of fish....
No one is gonna grow an old-growth Western Red Cedar, Sitka Spruce, Engelmann Spruce, or Redwood forest...

But we can certainly grow trees so that those future luthiers will have a plentiful supply of highly figured hardwoods to work with....

[Keith Erickson]

Keith, can your invisible hand of the free market whip me up a few thousand board feet of Brazilian Rosewood? I think there's demand for it, and I sure would like to import some and sell it!
Alex, I'm sure that the yellow pages or even the internet can direct you in the right direction on who would be able to provide you what you're looking for.

Have a Merry Christmas http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Spruce]

"Keith, can your invisible hand of the free market whip me up a few thousand board feet of Brazilian Rosewood? I think there's demand for it, and I sure would like to import some and sell it! "

Well, as we speak there are plantations all over Brazil churning out BR...
But (and this is a big "but"), it doesn't have the figuring and magic "black lines" that we see--and love--in the old stuff....

Bummer, huh?

[Keith Erickson]

Okay Folks,

No need to flood my e-mail box with nasty grams. I've been nothing but gracious in my responses to each of you wishing you all of the best.

But there are those who continue to badger and insult me with your e-mails. You've crossed the line when you threaten to call child protective services because you consider me an unfit father.

So....this is how y'all think http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Scott,

I am removing myself for good once and for all!!!! I want nothing to do with this board any further and this will be my last post.

[Alex of the North]

I'm a little confused. If BR is being pumped out by various plantations, why is it listed with CITES? Is it still endangered?

[martinedwards]

I make most of my mandos and guitars from offcuts from a major shopfitters near me. anything I don't "salvage" gets chipped and burnt in the boiler

Mainly walnut & mahogany, but I've had oak, various pine, maple, ash & other stuff.

I REALLY don't want to use BRW. I couldn't ever justify it.