Pinky on the pickguard

[Bruce68]

Hey All, I've been teaching myself to play with the "Hal Leonard Mandolin Method Book" by Rich DelGrosso. He says to "Brace your hand against the mandolin top with your wrist resting on the bridge and your little finger supporting the weight of your hand on the pickguard" The thing is, I've never seen another player do this...ever. Not even in photographs. I'm a bit confused, can anyone shed some light?

Bruce68

[mdlorenz]

I'll chime in, although I'm no expert...

I'd assume that most people will say that when starting it's best to learn without depending on any sort of "crutches" as possible. Technically speaking anchoring a finger, or anything anywhere for that matter will somewhat limit your movement. I often will "brush" my fingers on the pick guard, & often find the heel of my palm slightly anchored behind the bridge, but never do I purposely anchor a finger on the pickguard.

That being said, there are many many different right hand techniques. Just look at Monroe (somewhat tight fist), McCoury (loose fist), O'Brien (VERY open hand). So there is no "Right way" out there, just what ever you are comfortable with, & whatever isn't going to handicap you down the road once you become more technically advanced...

[Dan Voight]

Glad to hear your playing the mado! First, you have to figure out if you like plaing with your fingers out or fingers in. Resting your pinky will limit your playing, I wouldn't get in the habbit of doing that. You shouldn't really focus on anchoring your picking hand anywhere. I let my wrist bones brush the strings behind the bridge and thats about it. This way, you can go from struming 3-4 strings to picking a line on one string. You cant so that while anchoring your pinky... Good luck!

[jaydee]

I'll second what Dan said above, and add that by not anchoring anywhere you'll improve your tone. And you'll be free to move your right hand towards and away from the bridge to get a wider range of sounds.

[Bruce68]

Thanks guys, I do feel that anchoring my pinky slows me down, makes you wonder why he says to do that in the first place? I think I'll just do what I'm comfortable with and to heck with the braced pinky.

Bruce

[Nick Triesch]

Adam Steffy rests his fingers on the pickguard. He is one of the best of the best. I rest my fingers just a little bit on my fingerboard extention. I can still move very quick and the sound comes out the same no matter what. Took a workshop from Mike Marshel and he told us that it works for some folks to rest their pinky. He said do what feels best to you. Nick

[Jonathan Peck]

Bruce, ALOT of great players, both mandolin and guitar brush/rest their pinky on the top or pickguard. I think it's just how they learned and they aren't going to change as it doesn't seem to limit their playing one ioda.

I think the biggest thing is not to anchor your palm on the bridge, it really restricts free motion of your hand and wrist.

While I don't anchor my pinky, I am a big palm rester. I started on electric guitar in my teens and palm muting was a good technique for the style that I played. Not so for acoustic instruments and unfortunately this habbit is really hard to break

I'm in the process of breaking the habit now. It's takeing some getting used to, but the benefit is worth the effort. One small step backwards, two giant steps forward....yee ha!

[Curtis]

I rest my pinky on the pickguard as well but I'm also a newby. Rich Delgrosso is a darn good player. Got his CD. I've seen pictures of other mandolinists resting their finger as well. I would LIKE to not do it but I just miss strings so much. Maybe someday I'll focus on breaking the habit.

[Landgrass]

When I put an armrest on my mandolin, I stopped posting the pinky and resting the wrist behind the bridge. It just put my entire forearm and wrist in a much better position. You might give that a try.

[woodwizard]

Sam Bush rests his finger down there without a pickguard. You can see the worn area on Hoss.

[billkilpatrick]

i USED to put my little finger on the bridge - even developed a little callus - but as of ... today! ... i don't - simply because i find it a major inhibition to fast, fluid crosspicking.

[jasona]

Lightly sweeping your loose last few fingers (not holding the pick naturally!) on the pickguard is a good way of keeping a check on your hand position--but loose is the key! I think a full, static, anchor is bad in that it introduces rigidity into the system.

[Tom C]

Without a pickgaurd I would find my pinky against the side of the fretboard. With pickguard, my pinky kind of brushes the pickguard. I do find playing freehand that my pick wonders and I miss strings when playing at the top of my ability. I kind of mix them up when playing.

[Bruce68]

My Brothers...you guys are a wealth of information and insight. It's one thing to learn an instrument alone, but quite another when you have a community such as this to draw upon. God bless the Internet!!

Bruce

[AlanN]

Butch has a very stout tremolo technique, even and deliberate. There is no mistaking what he is doing when he does it. And yes, he puts da pinky down (at times).

[mando bandage]

I'll second the "brush, don't post" motion on the pinky pickguard issue. I let it brush lightly to assure that I'm keeping the pick moving in two planes instead of three. This is on recommendation of a very good flatpicking guitarist who saw me moving the free floating pick hand in and out (away from the mandolin and back toward it) far too much. It does make a difference.

R

[Alex Fields]

I think it's a bad idea to plant the pinky anywhere. The main reasons have already been mentioned. As to all the players who do it...don't know what to say except that their playing seems to suffer from it. I think I can pretty often tell whether someone plants just by listening to them without ever seeing them because they get a more rigid right hand which negatively affects tone. The fact that some players like Adam sound pretty good even when they plant is more a testament to their ability than to the efficacy of planting...I imagine those players would be even better, and be able to play a wider variety of things well, if they didn't plant.

I don't see how anyone can seriously deny that planting imposes limitations on hand movement and freedom. Or that limitations like that are bad.

[JeffD]

I don't see how anyone can seriously deny that planting imposes limitations on hand movement and freedom. #Or that limitations like that are bad.
I respectfully disagree. I have seen advice both ways, and the arguements get very heated.

I have seen videos of great players who plant, who don't plant, who brush, who don't brush, and some who switch depending on the tune.

I have always been a planter/brusher when playing a melody, and free floating (or what ever you want to call the opposite of planting) for chords or ryhthm type back up.

I plant whether I use a bowlback, or an arch top, whether it has a pick guard or not.

My melodic playing is sharper and more precise when I plant. I have better control over the emphasis I assigned to each note. So for me it seems to work out.

Now I suppose one could argue that if I could free myself from planting I would sound even better. That is one of those if.. if.. arguements that goes no-where. If I had the genetics to be a superstar mandolin player then perhaps I would be motivated to try it. But since there was no evidence of musical prodigy back when I was in my 20s, becoming a floater 20 years later isn't likely to change things.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


Now as to planting when there is no pickguard - yes it will probably change the finish over time. As I never intend to sell my instruments, I look forward to them showing the evidence of my playing. I don't get exercised over wear and tear from normal use.

[Curtis]

Jeff, since I'm in the same spot as you couldn't you please please spend a week floating to see if it makes your playing better. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif That way if it doesn't I didn't waste time trying it. Haha. I tried picking through some tunes last night floating and it didn't work out. Of course that is no where near an accurate experiment. I think a week of technical practice with floating would be a better guide to know if it would actually be better for me or not. . .

[Bob DeVellis]

Clearly both too much and too little restriction of hand movement can be bad. Missing strings as a result of too little restriction is bad and not being able to execute complex moves because of too much restriction is bad. I think people find their own solutions and any alternative to "the usual way" feels really strange after a pattern has developed. Having said that, I think it's more common for people who anchor to have a positive change when they stop anchoring than for people who don't anchor to benefit from suddenly planting their pinkie. But either method can give great results. Actually, I think an argument could be made that there are times when anchoring increases precision (maybe very controlled tremolo) and other times when not anchoring increases fluidity (maybe crosspicking). Perhaps a true master can adapt and use the appropriate method for the appropriate musical passage, changing on the fly as needs dictate. I'm not trying to disagree with anyone's preferred approach, just trying to point out that there are many paths to the same endpoint.

[Celtic Saguaro]

I think most of us who've put down a pinky for a *long* while find very little problem moving. For a beginner it could be a problem, though. Watch Evan Marshall play. He plants for intricate picking and lifts to get double and triple stops. He moves the pick all over the picking area. If it's effortless it's no problem. If you are putting any pressure on the top it is more likely to cause difficulty.

On the other hand I don't like resting on the bridge or playing with my arm too parallel with the strings. For me those do make movement difficult. There too, I think it's rigid position, and tension that cause more problems than the position itself.

[jmcgann]

I know an excellent player who really wants to stop posting the pinky, but after 20+ years of playing, simply can't break the habit.

Yes, excellent player! He can hear an improvement in tone when he doesn't post and plays slowly, but getting things to feel natural would take a lot of slow work.

There are many many players who play excellent music in spite of less than optimal technique. I don't think that means it's a good excuse to copy them, however; what they make work for them might lead you up some blind alleys.

Common sense and physics and research and old fashioned sit-down-and-practice can help re-wire your brain (literally) to improve your technique (http://www.johnmcgann.com/techtips.html).

[billkilpatrick]

i'm having some success in trying to keep the pinky out of the way - i've become a pinky swisher instead of a pinky plonker. one thing that helps me is playing with a preposterously large pick (a fender bass, i think) - familiar habits are broken with unfamiliar picks.

[Alex Fields]

Missing strings as a result of too little restriction is bad

I don't think you will miss strings as a result of too little restriction...I think you will miss strings as a result of not having developed enough right hand control. A lot of players, myself included, play with no restrictions on right hand and have no problem hitting the right strings consistently.

Everyone should at least learn to play without any kind of planting, and learn to play well that way, before trying planting again to see which they prefer. You can't really speak fairly of playing with a free right hand until you've learned to play that way proficiently. I found it helpful to plant early on but fortunately I decided to learn to play without it and now I find planting does nothing but hinder my right hand. I have enough right hand control that there's no reason I would need to plant pinky for more--really it just gives me less control because it forces my hand to move a little more rigidly. Lightly resting your palm on the strings below the bridge is a better way to get stability if you need it.

[CES]

You can do it both ways...while I'll agree that free-handing it seems intuitively "better," I tend to float when strumming/chopping and use my pinky as a guide when picking. I feel more comfortable this way, in part because of the Scruggs/Banjo influence, and feel like I have more control of my strokes. I also don't have a pickguard...some folks seem to feel that it's all or nothing, but playing requires constant adjustment, and if I need to move my hand or float to improve my ROM for a break, well, then, I move it. The pinky is a reference point, rather than an anchor, for me. Same thing for the palm on the bridge approach.

[Bruce68]

I've been trying a variety right hand techniques since posting this thread, hoping to find the one that feels most comfortable. Strangely enough, I keep going back to pinky planting. I guess old habits really do die hard. I have this nagging suspicion that Mr.DelGrosso is not entirely wrong. He claims the picking action should come from your wrist, not your forearm, and that this bracing technique will keep you from picking from the elbow. It makes sense. Where I went wrong was by keeping my pinky too stiff. There's a time for stiff and there's a time for loose, but the overall shape of the hand remains the same, a loosely closed fist with an extended pinky, sometimes firmly posted, othertimes lightly brushing, but always there at the ready. Thanks for all your input guys, this forum is a priceless resource, a true blessing indeed!!

Bruce

[Alex Fields]

A few days is not long enough to get comfortable playing without planting...more like a few months or in some cases years depending on how much you practice. It will really benefit you down the road to be able to play perfectly well without planting, then if you really want to plant for some reason you can but only because you want to and not because you struggle to play otherwise. But best of luck to you and have fun playing.

[Soupy1957]

I kept doing the "pinky planting" thing....so I removed the pick guard, thinking that would stop it, and I found myself planting my pinky on the side of the Florida spot, or on the body of the mando...

So I cut it off!!

-Soupy1957

[Jim Broyles]

So, how long it take your hand to heal after you cut off your pinky?

[billkilpatrick]

So, how long it take your hand to heal after you cut off your pinky?
they grow back really quickly ...

- the lizard king

[8STRINGR]

I'm remember one of the videos broadcasted on CMT or GAC of Alison Krauss & Union Station where the camera shot it closed in on Adam Steffy's mandolin breaks showing his pinky actually holding on the bottom F hole (top portion near the fret board) when playing his breaks. Just the tip (pad) of his pinky. I think it provides kind of a "spring back" effect so your not fully relying on it to be all in the wrist.

I've tried it, seems to work but rarely ever use it in any of my breaks. I think the tune is "Every time you Say GoodBye" but not the "Live" version. This video was before Adam left AKUS. You can see Adam breefly in the background on the "Baby, Now That I've Found You" video on CMT Loaded during his background break. It looks like his "ring finger" is rested as well. #

I don't have his instructional DVD to see if he's using that same combination or not on his lessons. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Soupy1957]

Late at night I still imagine it's there, and try to pick my nose!!

-Soupy1957

[Alex Fields]

...lol.

I think anyone who locks himself down to one single right hand (or left hand) position is doing himself and his mandolin a great deal of dis-service.

That raised bit of plastic on the mandolin isn't a pick guard, it is a finger rest. The whole reason for a raised finger rest is so you can rest your finger on it without hurting the tone of the mandolin. The reason they were made easily removable on mandolins is because many players didn't want them since they can click loudly when the pick hits them.

[mandroid]

.02

try closed fingers , and the pinky fingernail as a picking depth guage to help your pick control.

angular momentum of faster spinning skater with their arms in was given as a metaphor to recommend closed fingers advantage.

and choke up on the pick, hold it so as to expose minimal pick.

the opposite of pick as mud flap guitar strumming..

[Alex Fields]

I think anyone who locks himself down to one single right hand (or left hand) position is doing himself and his mandolin a great deal of dis-service.

A free floating right hand can do anything any other right hand position can do and can do them as well. No other right hand position can do everything a free floating right hand can do as well. I have zero motivation to use any kind of planting tecnique with my righthand, whereas people who plant have plenty to gain by learning to play with a free right hand.

[Nick Triesch]

You know what folks? If a bunch of the best of the best touch or brush or plant, or use the fingerboard extention as a finger guide all this does not really matter. In my own style most of the time when I do a lead I have my 4th and 5th fingers planted against the extention. But when I move around I tend to bruch the top of my mandolin (no pickguard). Then when I chop I don't touch at all. I am not a great player but I can pick very clean and fast on songs like "Blackberry Blossom" with my fingers planted against the extention. There is really no right way or wrong way. It's whatever works for each player. To say a player should start off not touching his fingers is just not a correct statment. I would tell new players if it feels right to touch the top, then do so. Nick

[mandolirius]

It's also important to make the distinction between "planting" and "resting". The former is a fixed right hand position where the latter describes temporarily making contact with the finger rest with the tips of the fingers.

[nashvillebill]

Resting your pinky will limit your playing, I wouldn't get in the habbit of doing that. (snip)
It always kills me to hear this- ever seen Steffey? He must not have gotten the memo about not anchoring the pinky.

[Jim Broyles]

Resting your pinky will limit your playing, I wouldn't get in the habit of doing that. (snip)
It always kills me to hear this- ever seen Steffey? He must not have gotten the memo about not anchoring the pinky.

(John McGann)

Posted: Dec. 14 2007, 10:05
I know an excellent player who really wants to stop posting the pinky, but after 20+ years of playing, simply can't break the habit.

Yes, excellent player! He can hear an improvement in tone when he doesn't post and plays slowly, but getting things to feel natural would take a lot of slow work.

There are many many players who play excellent music in spite of less than optimal technique. I don't think that means it's a good excuse to copy them, however; what they make work for them might lead you up some blind alleys.

Common sense and physics and research and old fashioned sit-down-and-practice can help re-wire your brain (literally) to improve your technique.


Yes, Steffey plants. But he is one of the exceptions, not the rule.

[Nick Triesch]

There is no " rule". There are no exceptions. What ever way works for the player. If Steffey can play that fast, that clean, then it just does not matter. Nick

[Alex Fields]

If Steffey can play that fast, that clean, then it just does not matter.

There are two huge problems with your reasoning here.

First, the fact that a few players are able to get really good results despite less than optimal technique does not prove that said technique will not hinder most people.

Second, I bet he could get even better results if he didn't plant.

I don't know what Adam's thoughts are about this, but I know that Adam has told people that at least some things about his technique he regrets and just hasn't been able to break the habit--he was just never told early on not to do certain things and by the time he had thought about changing was already well into a habit. This is the case with a LOT of mandolin players, even really famous ones. There's never been a standardized technique for folk mandolin playing so people have just done whatever felt right or whatever their idols did, and the result is that a lot of players of all skill levels are using techniques which probably have an overall negative effect on their playing.

I don't want to be rude, but none of these arguments would come up if everyone were familiar with basic logic and/or statistics. This is textbook generalization fallacy, and textbook assumption based on a poor sample size (which amount to the same thing).

[nolady]

Wow! I just started learning last week, using the same book. My first mandolin (Ovation Celebrity -returned it to the store) didn't even have a pickguard. My new one
Washburn (solid top) has a pickguard but my hand is too small to reach it. Also, when I rest my palm on the bridge I don't like the tone of the notes. Moving it a tad further up makes them sound sweeter.
So I'm very glad to see the comments here.

[jasona]

I don't want to be rude, but none of these arguments would come up if everyone were familiar with basic logic and/or statistics. This is textbook generalization fallacy, and textbook assumption based on a poor sample size (which amount to the same thing).
Alex:

Your comment assumes that a statistical analysis has been done that supports the free hand is better, and more people have greater success with it than with other approaches. To my knowledge, this does not exist beyond Mike Stangeland's analysis on MandoZine--and surely, someone with your familiarity with statistics will recognize that the sample size of that is inadequate to generalize.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I am saying that before you start making such strong statements as above, you should ensure that the proper homework has been done first.

And the larger point is this: even if one is correct, sometimes one is incorrect if one's approach or delivery is alienating to the audience one wishes to convince.

[Alex Fields]

Your comment assumes that a statistical analysis has been done that supports the free hand is better, and more people have greater success with it than with other approaches.

It assumes nothing except that the person I was responding to made a generalization based on the apparent success of a single person. But I don't know why I try to clarify things, people will always just pretend you said what they think you said and not bother to pay attention to your actual words and, you know, what they mean.

[Alex Fields]

Also, when I rest my palm on the bridge I don't like the tone of the notes. Moving it a tad further up makes them sound sweeter.

You will get different tone depending on how far up or down you pick...and it is good to be able to move around to change your tone depending on what you want at a given time, so that's one reason not to rely on resting your palm below the bridge. Personally though I find that, given the size of my hands and how far out I hold the pick, if I rest my palm right below the bridge the pick will be almost exactly on the sweet spot of most mandolins. Still not a good idea to rely on resting your palm, but you can let your palm lightly touch the strings that way to give you a sense of balance without sacrificing any control or tone like you usually do by planting pinky.

[Soupy1957]

I wouldn't care if the player had NO fingers, and just a stump for a right hand..if the sound he/she made with the mando was "quality," who cares what their fingers are or are not doing!

Proper technique is only that...a model to go by. After that, if you played the strings with your TONGUE and could make it sound great, that's all that matters.

Uniqueness is typically remembered. "Carbon-copy cutouts" are not.

-Soupy1957

[jmcgann]

The uniqueness for which a player is known is about musical content more than technique IMHO.

If you are a genius, then the technique is secondary. The rest of us would do well to put more thought into it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Peter Hackman]

On this topic (and two or three more) there is the usual confusion between a recommendation and a value judgment (after the fact). For each success story of unorthodox technique there may very well be a number of failures that never reach our attention (how could they?). Also, a prominent player's pinky planting is often not the whole story.

And, please, never tell a beginner to do what feels good or pleases him/her at the moment. A beginner is usually a poor judge of the consequences of his/her habits.

When I started playing the mandolin I had a pickguard, and I developed a brushing technique. Nothing wrong with that, really, but I was poorly prepared
for the switch to a mandolin without one; I had to adjust in a number of ways, which took maybe two months.

I later installed a mini-guard that keeps coming off all the time (slowly).
My brushing technique works (almost). Would have been nice to have a floating technique from the very beginning. On the other hand, how lucky I was not to develop a planting habit, and having too small hands to plant
on the face of the mandolin (my hands barely reach an octave on the piano).

How can anyone think that resting a pinky on the top of the mandolin will hurt the tone more than resting the palm of your hand on the bridge, or even near it? Touching the palm of your hand to the strings or bridge is called "palm muting" and should be reserved only for those occasions when you want to mute the strings.

I would also note that right hand techniques that work well for bluegrass don't necessarily translate all that well to other styles and vice versa. Some types of music don't require 980 LOUD notes per minute.

[jasona]

It assumes nothing except that the person I was responding to made a generalization based on the apparent success of a single person.
In making an insulting statement about the poster's understanding of statistics and logical argument you most definitely assume that a statistically relevant body of data has been gathered proving the poster's observation to be in error, and that an error of logic has occurred as a result. However, from where I'm sitting, the argument here seems to be a battle over whose anecdotal evidence is better. So which is it, the poster making the error of induction (yes, some of us here know more about logic than you give credit), or the assumption of effect where none exists? If you really want to make this argument, do the work and support your position with evidence.

My Here is the only study of this sort with which I am familiar. (http://www.mandozine.com/index.php/techniques/techinfo/right_hand_technique_study/) It says this,
When you closely observe the right hand technique of some of the best mandolin players a pattern seems to emerge. It seems that most of them play with slightly to very opened hand and they drag the tips of their pinky and ring fingers on the pickguard or the top of the mandolin. Sample size of 16, so one can't generalize from it, but it seems that most of the best sweep the top/pickguard with their right hand but don't plant. Alan Bibey was not part of this survey.

Soupy, I would argue that proper technique is more than a "model to go by". I think it permits one to achieve greater heights by preventing simple mechanical problems from occurring.

[Jim Broyles]

The uniqueness for which a player is known is about musical content more than technique IMHO.

If you are a genius, then the technique is secondary. The rest of us would do well to put more thought into it! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
You mean you don't recommend that aspiring jazz guitarists plant all four right hand fingers and play with their thumbs? I'm shocked.

[Nick Triesch]

I feel very lucky that I learned to play with my fingers touching the mando when I play. ( fingerboard extension) and just a tiny bit on the top of mando. I think it has made me a much better player and I see no reason to change. I just want to strive to play like the very best in Bluegrass. Nick

[Alex Fields]

I wouldn't care if the player had NO fingers, and just a stump for a right hand..if the sound he/she made with the mando was "quality," who cares what their fingers are or are not doing!

Proper technique is only that...a model to go by. After that, if you played the strings with your TONGUE and could make it sound great, that's all that matters.

I agree with this. Adam Steffey sounds good and I enjoy listening to him no matter how he plays. The point is just that for someone learning to play, certain techniques are more likely to be beneficial in the long run even if certain professional players don't use those techniques.


The uniqueness for which a player is known is about musical content more than technique IMHO.

I agree with that too. Good technique only serves to open up possibilities and allow you to make good music...it doesn't guarantee good music. And a lot of people with bad technique make good music, but surely we can agree that could probably make even better music if they weren't limited by technique?


How can anyone think that resting a pinky on the top of the mandolin will hurt the tone more than resting the palm of your hand on the bridge, or even near it? Touching the palm of your hand to the strings or bridge is called "palm muting" and should be reserved only for those occasions when you want to mute the strings

Er. That's if you rest your palm on the strings on the side where you play...we're talking about resting it behind the bridge. Lots of excellent players do this and recommend it as acceptable technique. Chris Thile does. I'm skeptical about relying on this but still, tone and control don't seem to suffer at all from resting very lightly that way.


In making an insulting statement about the poster's understanding of statistics and logical argument you most definitely assume that a statistically relevant body of data has been gathered proving the poster's observation to be in error, and that an error of logic has occurred as a result.

I most certainly do not. All I said was that making an argument that something is okay based on the fact that it works for one person is a logical fallacy, which as a matter of fact it is. My argument was not in any way that statistics had proved the opposite conclusion. And my statement was an expression of frustration with the widespread lack of understanding of the core rules of logic, not an insult. Hence the qualifier, which was not intended sarcastically.


So which is it, the poster making the error of induction (yes, some of us here know more about logic than you give credit), or the assumption of effect where none exists?

There are two different ways to be using induction here and only the first one, which is the way it was being used, is bad--namely, that "here are a few people for whom such and such is effective, therefore it must be effective for everyone." That is a generalization based on inadequate sample size. The other type of induction, that we can experiment with technique and figure out why certain techniques work or don't work instead of relying on statistics about overall results players get, is perfectly acceptable and doesn't depend on a sample size.

One thing I'm sure of that can be demonstrated easily is a tight fist makes a tight wrist. Your wrist will be at its most flexible when your fist is open and your fingers relaxed. Having your fingers relaxed means it is likely that they will brush the top fairly often.

How can anyone think that resting a pinky on the top of the mandolin will hurt the tone more than resting the palm of your hand on the bridge, or even near it? Touching the palm of your hand to the strings or bridge is called "palm muting" and should be reserved only for those occasions when you want to mute the strings

Er. #That's if you rest your palm on the strings on the side where you play...we're talking about resting it behind the bridge. #Lots of excellent players do this and recommend it as acceptable technique. #Chris Thile does. #I'm skeptical about relying on this but still, tone and control don't seem to suffer at all from resting very lightly that way.
The strings vibrate, they transfer those vibrations to the bridge and the bridge conducts those vibrations to the top. That's how mandolins work.

If you rest your hand on or near the bridge your hand will absorb some of the energy that should have gone to the top. That is muting and is easily proven. Even if your hand is resting very lightly on or near the bridge that big hand will kill a LOT more energy than your pinky could by touching a tiny spot on a large top.

Chris Thile is a good player, but he is totally wrong about this. Playing a really good mandolin allows you to get away with all sorts of bad techniques.

[jasona]

In making an insulting statement about the poster's understanding of statistics and logical argument you most definitely assume that a statistically relevant body of data has been gathered proving the poster's observation to be in error, and that an error of logic has occurred as a result.

I most certainly do not. All I said was that making an argument that something is okay based on the fact that it works for one person is a logical fallacy, which as a matter of fact it is. My argument was not in any way that statistics had proved the opposite conclusion. And my statement was an expression of frustration with the widespread lack of understanding of the core rules of logic, not an insult. Hence the qualifier, which was not intended sarcastically.
It was still insulting in its tone, you should be a little more careful about that.

I think you've missed my point from this paragraph. Without the statistical grounding in what works, what doesn't, all we are left with is a battle of personal preferences and anecdotes. From this light, your statement of preference of right hand technique is logically equal to the other's statement of preference of their right hand technique. Without the implicit assumption of statistical justification, how can you even call Bibey's right hand technique exceptional?

[Edited induction discussion--no one probably cares other than us.]

Obligatory mandolin comment: I'm getting one of Doug Edward's nice pick guards installed when I take my mandolin in for a tuneup and fret dress. I expect it will help keep my right hand in a better position.

[Alex Fields]

Without the statistical grounding in what works, what doesn't, all we are left with is a battle of personal preferences and anecdotes.

Even if that's true my point about the argument being fallacious stands, but I think I responded to this already when I refered to the second type of inductive argument (which may actually be a deductive argument with a probabilistic conclusion come to think of it).

[JeffD]

A free floating right hand can do anything any other right hand position can do and can do them as well. #No other right hand position can do everything a free floating right hand can do as well.
You say that emphatically, but I have seen "experts" disagree on those very points.

In circumstances like this I vote for the flexibilty option, get adept at the technique that helps most the particular part of the music you are attempting to play.

[JeffD]

whereas people who plant have plenty to gain by learning to play with a free right hand.
Well maybe - maybe not. I mean, even if I grant some improvement in playing, how much improvement could I expect, and would it be worth going through the hassle.

For some folks it may, for others it may not.

[JeffD]

I don't want to be rude, but none of these arguments would come up if everyone were familiar with basic logic and/or statistics. #This is textbook generalization fallacy, and textbook assumption based on a poor sample size (which amount to the same thing).
Wait, hang on. I am not sure what you are responding too.

But from a purely logical mathematical point of view, you have a point - you cannot judge by individual examples, and from a statistical point of view your right, there may not be enough examples to make valid analysis.

But since we cannot go back to first principles and mathematically derive a mandolin, and then derive a mandolin technique, and logically provie it to be the best according to some rigid criteria...

Then we have to fall back on some reasonable thinking. And while we could argue all day about whether floating is optimum or not, it is very reasonable, and has been shown many times, that not floating need not hold you back significantly.

I think someone could make the perfectly reasonable judgement based on self assessment, that planting / brushing will not hold them back nearly as much as genetics, available practice time, age, and any of a host of other things.

Now if it could be shown that planting and brushing were as significant in holding one back as, say, never learning to down up down up - then you would have a stronger point. But the mere fact that many successful players don't always free float shows that not to be the case.

Respectfully as always.

[JeffD]

I do agree with Peter (I think it was you, if not I apologize), that what advice you might give to an experienced player looking to improve might be different than what you would give to a beginner. There are ways of beginning that make progress easier and avoid some pitfalls and bad habits.

But there again, I would want to consider the priority of planting / not planting, versus the priority of learning to read music / tab only (oh no, not that again), or the priority of staying away from open strings to make playing up the neck easier, or any of a number of things experienced players wish they had done at the beginning.

[JeffD]

I think where folks get chaffed is in the self rightiousness tone of a proclamation. I hope we can all disagree, even vigerously, without losing our good natures and the basic fun of the discussion.

My two rules then - don't chafe, and don't be too easily chaffed.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[jk245]

I vote pinky ... a slight touch on the pick guard helps me keep wrist orientation

[mythicfish]

Everybody's entitled to my opinion. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Alex Fields]

Even if your hand is resting very lightly on or near the bridge that big hand will kill a LOT more energy than your pinky could by touching a tiny spot on a large top.

You do realize we're talking about the strings behind the bridge (not the side you play on) and not on top of it right? Resting my palm lightly there, and then not resting it at all, there is no difference in sound. It may technically make some ridiculously slight difference but the difference is not perceivable. And if it were, heck, that would just mean you shouldn't rest your hand there. But I have a good ear for tone and if I can't hear a difference up close on a good mandolin that I'm playing, I'm darn sure nobody else can tell a difference either. And, lol, do you realize that a lot of players (most?) attach grommets to the strings behind the bridge specifically for the purpose of muting them there and preventing them from ringing? Come to think of it the fact that the strings are always muted that way on the mandolins I play may be why I can't hear a difference when I rest my palm.

When people criticize planting on the basis of tone they aren't saying that the pressure of the finger on the wood harms the vibration of the wood or something. They're saying it negatively affects right hand technique in such a way that tone suffers.

One more comment: to say that you have to spread your fingers out away from the hand to prevent your hand from tightening into a fist is ridiculous. Of course you don't want a tight fist, but keeping your fingers loosely curled so that they don't hit the strings or the wood in no way requires you to tighten your hand. It's also possible to keep a basically loose hand with the fingers kindof sticking out, but that actually seems to tighten the back of the hand very slightly while curling the fingers inside doesn't. I don't use any muscle to keep my fingers curled, in fact I rarely if ever use any muscles in any fingers when picking, it's all in the wrist, the hand just stays in place when you hold it right, at least in my experience.

EDIT: I honestly do not mean to be insulting to anyone on here, if I've come across that way I apologize. I'm just so used to arguing about everything that it comes naturally and then on a place like this where it doesn't usually work that way I come across as a lot more of a dick than I really am...but hey I'm an obsessive perfectionist about mandolin playing and it's all in the interest of improving our playing right? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Alex Fields]

Everybody's entitled to my opinion.

Well, I guess you're entitled to that opinion...but...wait, confusing logic.

<<You do realize we're talking about the strings behind the bridge (not the side you play on) and not on top of it right? >>

Yes, I realize that. You do realize that your hand weighs a whole lot more than four little grommets, right? You do realize that it is impossible to hear the true tone of a mandolin from above and behind it, right?


<< One more comment: to say that you have to spread your fingers out away from the hand to prevent your hand from tightening into a fist is ridiculous. >>

You're right. That is a ridiculous misinterpretation of what I said. I never said one should spread ones fingers out away from the hand. That is your "ridiculous" statement.


<< Of course you don't want a tight fist, but keeping your fingers loosely curled so that they don't hit the strings or the wood in no way requires you to tighten your hand. >>

Oh yes it does. You do realize that it isn't the muscles in your hand that curl your fingers in don't you? It is the muscles in your forearm acting on the tendons that go through your wrist. Make a fist, shake your hand. Curl your fingers inward, shake your hand. Relax your fingers, shake your hand. Unless you have advance arthritis it will be pretty obvious which leaves the wrist more relaxed and flexible.

[Alex Fields]

You do realize that it is impossible to hear the true tone of a mandolin from above and behind it, right?

Yes. It is common practice to turn the instrument so that the front of it is facing your ears when you're listening closely for tone. That's what I do.


That is a ridiculous misinterpretation of what I said. I never said one should spread ones fingers out away from the hand. That is your "ridiculous" statement.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but in that case what did you mean by this: "Your wrist will be at its most flexible when your fist is open and your fingers relaxed. Having your fingers relaxed means it is likely that they will brush the top fairly often." Your fingers are not going to be brushing the top unless they are spread away from the hand unless your anatomy is significantly different from a normal human's or your technique is absolutely bizarre.


Oh yes it does. You do realize that it isn't the muscles in your hand that curl your fingers in don't you? It is the muscles in your forearm acting on the tendons that go through your wrist. Make a fist, shake your hand. Curl your fingers inward, shake your hand. Relax your fingers, shake your hand. Unless you have advance arthritis it will be pretty obvious which leaves the wrist more relaxed and flexible.

My hand IS relaxed when I curl my fingers. In fact if I hold my arm horizontally like I would when playing and totally relaxing all the hand muscles the hand naturally falls into that position. I don't know what you have in mind by a hand position that is 'relaxed' but for me there is no more relaxed position that loosely curled fingers. Anything with fingers more spread out than that requires a lot more tension in the back of the wrist. I can put my left hand on the back of my right and feel it tense up a little when I spread my fingers away from the curled position. So it is 'pretty obvious' that exactly the technique I have been describing is most relaxed and flexible.

[Alex Fields]

I just put my forefinger and thumb together as though I were holding a pick and shook my hand loose and raised it up and here's a picture. Incidentally this is also the position of my right hand when playing, although sometimes I probably extend the fingers holding the pick out a little further.

[jasona]

Nice sweater.

[Alex Fields]

Nice sweater.

Hey, thanks.

On that note I'm going to bow out of this thread. I'd be happy to take up the issue again with anyone in person, mandos in hand, but until then...

<< It is common practice to turn the instrument so that the front of it is facing your ears when you're listening closely for tone. That's what I do. >>

Nope, if you hold your mandolin in that position your right hand cannot possibly be in its normal playing position thus negating the results. The "common" practice is to have someone else play the mandolin while you are in front of it.

And your hand is far from relaxed. Your index finger is extended causing the other fingers to contract. They are all under tension. Since that is a hand position that encourages picking with finger movement rather than wrist movement it wouldn't make much difference for you anyway.

The standard "mandos in hand" argument when one really doesn't understand the theory.

Here's what a relaxed right hand looks like.

http://www.ninecats2.com/RightHand1.jpg

[Alex Fields]

Ignoring your other comments I can't resist responding to this one...

None of my fingers are under any tension when I hold my hand like that. My index finger and thumb stay in that position with no muscle control to force them. I use ZERO finger movement when I pick, it is 100% wrist. My fingers are held so loosely that I sometimes drop the pick in the middle of a tune. I frequently stop myself and pay close attention to make sure I am using only wrist, and I am. I have given all of this as much thought and attention as almost anyone. It's fine if you disagree with me but please don't insult my technique based on assumptions about my hands and how I play which are empirically false.

[jasona]

I can empirically say I get better volume with my first finger curled in slightly more than your Alex, since it then mirrors the thumb and creates a straight line of rotation (horizontal, about the X axis which is parallel to the strings) about which the pick can flex. If I try and pick holding the pick like you show some of the energy of the pick is lost due to rotation about the Y axis.

I'll see if I can post a picture in a bit. Am pretending to work and all. Its basically just like the one neptune posted. In fact, I think that's me... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Alex Fields]

That picture may not be totally accurate for how I hold the pick, I just stuck thumb and first finger together to see how the hand would come up. It's probably a bit different when I actually get comfortable with a pick...

Anyway there are lots of things I could do to get more volume, lol, but I value speed and cleanliness and tone (control, basically) way more than volume...obviously I wouldn't recommend that approach to everyone but it's what I've chosen for various reasons. When I play unamplified I do sometimes change a little to get more volume but for the most part I practice the technique I would use amplified. The main differences is that usually I play with a really short pick stroke to get very precise control, the pick stroke widens a bit (not hugely though) when I'm aiming for volume. There are probably other differences too...

Anyway I said I was done with this thread lol, so.

[JimD]

Here's what a relaxed right hand looks like.

When I was an undergrad studying classical guitar (some time ago). there was a book called "The Segovia Technique". #It was basically a book of photos of Segovia's hands. Many of my colleagues were spending their time trying to get their hands into the same position as the photos. They criticized each other and any other guitarist they saw (you'll notice that I didn't say "heard" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #) based on whether or not their hands were in "the Segovia position."

The trouble is that any two pair of hands are quite different. I couldn't get my long fingers into the positions that Segovia's sausages ...I mean, fingers... could.

And, now, after many years of teaching, I am quite certain that the look of a person's hands doesn't really say much at all about their technique. You simply cannot tell from a photo whether or not someone's hand is relaxed.

By the way, I still have that book. ....haven't opened it in decades...

[Alex Fields]

You simply cannot tell from a photo whether or not someone's hand is relaxed.

Probably true. My hand goes into a curled position when relaxed but maybe someone else's behaves differently...I don't know...I'm certainly open to the idea that your fingers can be in different places if it helps you a freer right hand.

The functions of the human hand and forearm have been studied and documented. It is indeed possible to determine whether the tendons are in a relaxed state by looking at a photo.

[jasona]

Well, smashed my hand in the lab just now, so I won't be posting a picture--unless you want to see a giant band-aid?

Alex just might have a gigantic index finger and thumb!

[JimD]

The functions of the human hand and forearm have been studied and documented. It is indeed possible to determine whether the tendons are in a relaxed state by looking at a photo.

I'm not denying that the functions have been well-documented. I'm just saying that I can tell more more by a player's sound and what his/her hand is able to do than by a static picture.

[Nick Triesch]

It's too bad we can't have a pick race! All the players that drag, brush, plant, hold on the the extention vs the players who ride the air! We could have guys with stopwatches time different breaks. And then there would be credit for clean notes as well!! A good break would be "Blackberry Blossom". Must go, must practice. Nick

[CES]

Sheesh...

I think I'm gonna go practice my banjo for a while...that way I can either anchor (Scruggs) or float (clawhammer) and not have to worry about criticism from you guys (except about the whole banjo part of the plan http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Actually, every time I see this thread pop up I remember the intro to my "You Can Teach Yourself Mandolin" book by Dix Bruce...I don't have it in front of me and haven't actually read it since last Christmas, thus won't try to quote him. #But, the gist of his advice is that some players float, some anchor, and that there continues to rage a debate about who was correct...I remember as a rank beginner finding it odd that anyone would care as long as they sounded good.

Maybe we should send this one in to Myth Busters and let them solve it once and for all... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[DaveNB]

Oh no! Not the mythbusters! They will be taking a mando out to some remote location to blow it up http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[CES]

Oh no! Not the mythbusters! They will be taking a mando out to some remote location to blow it up http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
My wife has actually suggested I loan them the banjo for just that very reason http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif She's also suggested that they use it in the shark attack episodes, that they change the "hiding behind a car door during a firefight" episode to "hiding behind a banjo (ie, my banjo) during a firefight," and she also mentioned something about dropping it from an airplane to see if a parachuter could catch up to it before it hit the ground. NOW, if said parachuter could not only catch it but also play Earl's Breakdown on the way down, that would be a show!

Maybe if they used the 50-cent chocolate colored mandos from ebay the blowing up of them may not be so tragic? Otherwise, I guess you're right... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Peter Hackman]

Sheesh...

I think I'm gonna go practice my banjo for a while...that way I can either anchor (Scruggs) or float (clawhammer) and not have to worry about criticism from you guys

jmcgann, Dec. 14, 2007, 10:05:

There are many many players who play excellent music in spite of less than optimal technique. I don't think that means it's a good excuse to copy them, however; what they make work for them might lead you up some blind alleys.

Sweet Pete, Dec. 16 2007, 07:39:

On this topic (and two or three more) there is the usual confusion between a recommendation and a value judgment (after the fact).

Alex Fields, Dec. 16, 2007, 14:43:

Adam Steffey sounds good and I enjoy listening to him no matter how he plays. #The point is just that for someone learning to play, certain techniques are more likely to be beneficial in the long run even if certain professional players don't use those techniques.

SO:

It seems we are again #witnessing the phenomen of reacting with one's reactions instead of reading the actual statements.

AGAIN:
A RECOMMENDATION or A PIECE OF ADVICE is NOT #the same thing as CRITICISM.

[Peter Hackman]

How can anyone think that resting a pinky on the top of the mandolin will hurt the tone more than resting the palm of your hand on the bridge, or even near it? Touching the palm of your hand to the strings or bridge is called "palm muting" and should be reserved only for those occasions when you want to mute the strings.

I would also note that right hand techniques that work well for bluegrass don't necessarily translate all that well to other styles and vice versa. Some types of music don't require 980 LOUD notes per minute.
I don't think anyone has ever claimed that planting fingertips against the top entails a discernible reduction in tone or volume. What's been said is that to many people (not all) this may entail a reduction in flexibility, i.e., the effect
on tone and/or volume is indirect.

Also, I'm not aware of any recommendation to rest
(in the sense of applying pressure)
one's hand against the strings on or behind the bridge - which again would entail a severe reduction in flexibility. The standard seems to be to
touch the strings very lightly (usually the ones you are not playing at the moment).

[jmcgann]

I'm with Peter here,to "rest" or "touch" is quite different from "anchor" "plant" or "post".

<< Also, I'm not aware of any recommendation to rest (in the sense of applying pressure) one's hand against the strings on or behind the bridge >>

Well, that came from the OP. Here it is again.

'Hey All, I've been teaching myself to play with the "Hal Leonard Mandolin Method Book" by Rich DelGrosso. He says to "Brace your hand against the mandolin top with your wrist resting on the bridge and your little finger supporting the weight of your hand on the pickguard" The thing is, I've never seen another player do this...ever. Not even in photographs. I'm a bit confused, can anyone shed some light?'

[KimRoulias]

If I'm picking a fiddle tune, I like to anchor my pinky for stability. But if I'm playing an actual song, like "I'ma Goin Back To Ol Kentucky," or something like that, I keep a loose wrist and a closed fist.

[Peter Hackman]

I see; of course the starting point of this discussion was the, hm,
originality of del Grosso's recommendation - actually, he can't really mean what he's saying.

Dix Bruce at least indicates several alternatives, but I think a responsible approach
would be to discuss their various advantages and disadvantages.
Bruce plays the guitar and quite a few mando players come from the guitar,
like me. Certain techniques that work, regardless of the player's anatomy, become problematic on the mando as the strings (on a carved top)
are further away from the top than on a (flat top) guitar (on my mando the distance is between 16 and 20 mm; on my guitars 10 to 12). And there should be at least a discussion of the role of a pickguard.

[jasona]

I'm for the discussion of the role of the pickguard, as one is being installed on my mando as I type. I plan to use it as a surface across which to glide my curled under fingers to help better gauge the depth to the strings. Is this an appropriate use of the pickguard?

[nolady]

I took my first mandolin lesson today, and guess what my instructor guided me to do?
Rest my pinky tip on the pick guard. He even put a piece of tape at the spot he wanted it?
Why?
He explained that starting out, it would give me a frame of reference to learn to find the strings without having to look for them.
He didn't say I'd be doing it for the rest of my life. And he acknowledged that it wasn't the only way to play.

Since I only had a 1/2 hr for the lesson, I didn't get into the discussions going on here. But I smiled to myself thinking about coming
back and telling y'all.

And may I add, I'm excited as can be about having had my first lesson!!!!!!! #Already learned to correct a couple bad habits I was developing
after only a week of fumbling around

n(ew) o(rleans) lady

[mythicfish]

<I'm for the discussion of the role of the pickguard, as one is being installed on my mando as I type. I plan to use it as a surface across which to glide my curled under fingers to help better gauge the depth to the strings. Is this an appropriate use of the pickguard? >

I believe that is correct. i.e. ... works for me.

[JeffD]

It's too bad we can't have a pick race! #All the players that drag, brush, plant, #hold on the the extention #vs the players who ride the air! # #We could have guys with stopwatches time different breaks. #And then there would be credit for clean notes as well!! #A good break would be "Blackberry Blossom". #Must go, #must practice. #Nick
Various weighted criteria, speed, tone, accuracy, rhythmic consistency, and the intangibles like musicality, energy, innovation in improv.

But then, if the playing has tone, accuracy, rhythmic, consistency, musicality, energy, innovation, who needs it to be fast.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Curtis]

I see; of course the starting point of this discussion was the, hm,
originality of del Grosso's recommendation - actually, he can't really mean what he's saying.

Dix Bruce at least indicates several alternatives, but I think a responsible approach
would be to discuss their various advantages and disadvantages.
Bruce plays the guitar and quite a few mando players come from the guitar,
like me. Certain techniques that work, regardless of the player's anatomy, become problematic on the mando as the strings (on a carved top)
are further away from the top than on a (flat top) guitar (on my mando the distance is between 16 and 20 mm; on my guitars 10 to 12). And there should be at least a discussion of the role of a pickguard.
I actually had a lesson with Delgrosso about a month ago and asked him about planting the pinky. I said "is that a habit I should get out of?" and he said something along the lines of "whatever works for you".

Not many people talk about him as a mandolinist (I'm not sure why) but he sounds damn good.

[Curtis]

Also, for nolady. . . I would say one of the most important habits to get into is playing WITHOUT looking at your hands. Now of course this will lead to another argu. . . I mean "discussion" but hopefully we can all agree that knowing where your left and right hand is without looking at them is very important. More important than possibly putting your pinky down for a couple months to a couple years. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[JimD]

But then, if the playing has tone, accuracy, rhythmic, consistency, musicality, energy, innovation, who needs it to be fast.


Thank you!

Now, you might want to head over to the "Musical virtuosos who started late" discussion and remind a few people of this.

[Nick Triesch]

Bluegrass is played fast. Many time at break neck speeds. If you want to play bluegrass in a good jam with the standard tunes like "Blackberry Blssom" You have to play fast, and have tone and all the rest of the stuff. That's why I hold on for dear life to my fingerboard extention with my 4th and 5th fingers! It helps me go as fast as I can. Nick

[nolady]

Curtis, it makes sense to me to know where I need to put my fingers without looking. That's how I learned piano and typing so why not the same for mandolin.

[AlanN]

Bluegrass is played fast. #Many time at break neck speeds. If you want to play bluegrass in a good jam with the standard tunes like "Blackberry Blssom" #You have to play fast, #and have tone and all the rest of the stuff. #That's why I hold on for dear life to my fingerboard extention with my 4th and 5th fingers! It helps me go as fast as I can. # # Nick
BB is killed when it's too fast. Listen to T. Rice, he does not play it at breakneck pace.

[Peter Hackman]

I see; of course the starting point of this discussion was the, hm,
originality of del Grosso's recommendation - actually, he can't really mean what he's saying.

.


I actually had a lesson with Delgrosso about a month ago and asked him about planting the pinky. I said "is that a habit I should get out of?" and he said something along the lines of "whatever works for you".

Not many people talk about him as a mandolinist (I'm not sure why) but he sounds damn good.
In the last part of the first paragraph of the quote (you still there?) I was thinking mainly of the recommendation to rest the palm or wrist (or whatever) on the
bridge. I still assume he simply meant something else.

Do you use a pick-guard?

[jmcgann]

BB is killed when it's too fast. Listen to T. Rice, he does not play it at breakneck pace.

If you play along with the relaxed sounding Tony Rice,(or other relaxed sounding players like Flatt and Scruggs etc.), you'll soon find that it's not the speed that's the problem- they can play FAST and RELAXED, which makes it sound not frantic.

Play along with the relaxed Manzanita recording, and see if I'm right http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

They sound that way because they LIVE at those tempos. If you are a tourist, you won't blend in. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Nick Triesch]

Nope, Listen to Ricky Scaggs or Adam Steffey. Or many other greats. They play super fast and clean. Their bluegrass is not killed. Years ago I saw A/K and Union station and Alison said that one of the reasons she wanted Adam in the band was he was the fastest mandolin player she had ever seen. If you think bluegrass should not be played fast it is probably because you cannot play it fast. IMHO. Nick

[jasona]

If you play along with the relaxed sounding Tony Rice,(or other relaxed sounding players like Flatt and Scruggs etc.), you'll soon find that it's not the speed that's the problem- they can play FAST and RELAXED, which makes it sound not frantic....They sound that way because they LIVE at those tempos. If you are a tourist, you won't blend in.
Professor McGann speaks truth. Since I've been working on speed, and pushing the upper limit ever higher, the best result is how relaxed and comfortable previously unachievable speeds (well below the break up point) now feel, and how good it sounds as a result.

Not too long ago I spent an evening watching Marc Roy flatpick. He was so calm up on stage it seemed odd to hear the flurry of notes coming out of his guitar. If I can get anywhere near that zen state while ripping a solo, I'll be happy.

[mandolirius]

<Quote
BB is killed when it's too fast. Listen to T. Rice, he does not play it at breakneck pace.

If you play along with the relaxed sounding Tony Rice,(or other relaxed sounding players like Flatt and Scruggs etc.), you'll soon find that it's not the speed that's the problem- they can play FAST and RELAXED, which makes it sound not frantic.

Play along with the relaxed Manzanita recording, and see if I'm right

They sound that way because they LIVE at those tempos. If you are a tourist, you won't blend in.>


<Nope, Listen to Ricky Scaggs or Adam Steffey. Or many other greats. They play super fast and clean. Their bluegrass is not killed. Years ago I saw A/K and Union station and Alison said that one of the reasons she wanted Adam in the band was he was the fastest mandolin player she had ever seen. If you think bluegrass should not be played fast it is probably because you cannot play it fast. IMHO.>


I can't see this as an either/or situation. A lot of bluegrass is played at very fast tempos. But a lot isn't. And you can kill some songs or tunes by playing them too fast. You can also play stuff too slow to every really "catch fire". Tempos should be thought about, discussed, experimented with etc. But this business of saying things are "too fast, too slow or just right" (sound like Goldilocks and the 3 Bears) is a non-starter. Most bands will play at a variety of tempos. But referencing one person and their rendition of one song doesn't shed much light.

[AlanN]

Nope, #Listen to Ricky Scaggs or Adam Steffey. #Or many other greats. #They play super fast and clean. Their bluegrass is not killed. #Years ago I saw A/K and Union station and Alison said that one of the reasons she wanted Adam in the band was he was the fastest mandolin player she had ever seen. #If you think bluegrass should not be played fast it is probably because you cannot play it fast. #IMHO. #Nick
Nope.

And hmmm....I don't ever recall picking with you. So, it sounds rather odd to hear a proclamation from you (who I have never picked with) that states "probably because you cannot play it fast." (and then mitigated somewhat with the ever-present internet diclaimer IMHO). Rather odd, indeed.

I would hesitate to make blanket, un-informed statements about somebody else's abilities on a public forum such as this. I know I do.

[Nick Triesch]

Alen you are right...I'm sorry. You are right, I do not know how you play. I was wrong. I had a friend in the 60's who was in a band. He was the guitar player. He played lead. They played stuff like early Stones and Gary louis and the Playboys. Then when groups like Eric Clapton came out with Cream and played songs like "Crossroads" He hated them. He said it was all trash! But it was because he could not play the new fast leads. All I am saying is most mando breaks in Bluegrass are played fast. Ever hear the mando player in " Front Range" ? Bluegrass is a fast sport. Nick

[AlanN]

Nik,

I don't begrudge your opinion. We all have at least 1. Grass is, oftentimes, fast tempo music - we seem to agree on this. All I'm saying is it doesn't all have to be fast to be good. A tune like Goldrush is good at a medium lope. I have an Instrumental Knights Station Inn recording - Bryan Sutton, Aubrey, Dave Talbot. These guys can play fast, but this number gets the medium tempo.

And I have heard Front Range. I greatly admired mando man Mike Lantz (RIP).

And we should pick together sometime. I have a cool twin to BB - f-a-s-t http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandolirius]

<All I am saying is most mando breaks in Bluegrass are played fast. Ever hear the mando player in " Front Range" ? Bluegrass is a fast sport. Nick>

I think you're overstating your case. Not all bluegrass is played fast. Some is, some isn't. Some is at medium tempos. It's not accurate, or even complimentary to say all bluegrass is fast, all the time. Maybe all the bluegrass you listen to is fast, but you must be focusing on instrumental music only. Can you imagine singing everything at fast tempos? Your one-dimensional represention of bluegrass is, well, wrong. I'm sorry I don't have a more diplomatic way to put it.

[Nick Triesch]

Alan, Mike Lantz was fantastic. I had the chance to see and hear him play a few times. He would just play at super speeds and smile. Also a real nice guy. He played a fantastic Nuggett. You guys are right. All Bluegrass is not played fast. But when I think of Bluegrass and I think mandolin... I think speed. Sure on many songs in both Bluegrass and Celtic are played at a slower pace. I just like the fast breaks. Nick

[cooper4205]

sometimes I think people mistake drive for speed when it comes to bluegrass and how fast certain songs sound.

[jmcgann]

My point is that tempos at any speed can "feel" very different to both the audience and the player, depending on who is playing them.

Eighth notes at half note=120 is too fast for some, and 160 is just right for others. There are players who sound relaxed and comfortable at 160, and others (like me) who are in the "tone-free" zone at that speed.

It's not about drive (although that's an important factor, where the notes fall against the beat), it's about being comfortable with rhythmic accuracy, fat tone, and relaxed technique at those tempos. JD Crowe, Earl Scruggs (to name two), to my ears, make the music appear slower than it actually is- simply because they live at that altitude and are acclimated and comfortable there. When I sit down to play along, I really hear the contrast, because I am not in a situation where I am called on to play at 160 every day.

Someone (or a whole band) hanging on for dear life in their personal tone free zone can make 120 feel like 180 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[JimD]

Bluegrass is a fast sport. # #Nick
This is where we part ways.

To me music is an art, not a sport.

[Alex Fields]

I don't play much bluegrass but...classical stuff is really fast and you don't get to pick your tempos beyond a certain degree for classical.

[Nick Triesch]

Music is an art. Playing mandolin is an artform. But it can also be part sport. For instance there are guitar, fiddle, and mandolin contests all over the country. People win all the time for their technical ability. Players will do gymnastics on the fingerboard. That's half the fun. Dance is an artform but let's look at two famous dancers. Fred Astare was noted for his artistic moves but Gene Kelly was noted for being a dance powerhouse with gymnastic moves. Both were great but Kelly had more sport. When players duel on an instrument, that's part sport. Nick

[JimD]

The problem is when it becomes too much about being a sport and not enough about being an art -- this happens all too frequently.

Frankly, speed doesn't impress me. If that is a player's primary concern and if they know how to practice to achieve it, it can usually be done. Big deal!

However, if a player can move me with his or her playing, I don't notice if it is fast or not.

By the way, I am not a fan of competitions in music either. It often promotes "high, fast and loud" playing at the expense of other equally valid musical approaches.

I know this is setting me up for a round of attacks -- so be it.

[Peter Hackman]

Perhaps the main reason I gave up on Bluegrass in 1969-70 was these ridicuolus tempos in a fast two. I plead guilty to playing quite a few of these 160 bpm tunes (some of them are on my website) but I grew increasingly frustrated with the limited possibilities for improvisation. Any ##### can work up a "break" and practice it to speed, but the main battle is to invent
in real time and to phrase in an interesting way. On at least one of these recordings I hear myself caught in the groove and struggling in vain to get out.

And I'm not alone. There is, or used to be, a video on YouTube, of Foggy Mt. Breakdown (I deserve credit for never tackling that one), and to my ears the only musicians capable of handling that fast tempo
creatively are the two electric guitarists, Vince Gill and Albert Lee.

On YouTube there is also a video of Ricky Skaggs doing a sacred number , "Ready to Go", in the key of B. Why do people go wild over his stiff mandolin solo (by the way, it he appears to be planting there) when Andy Leftwich's violin solo is so much more refined? And why not slow it down a bit to allow
everyone to sound more interesting.

There ARE BG musicians who can inject rhythmic interest into these frantic gallops; one is Stuart Duncan, another is
David Grier (I have it on jmcgann's authority that Grier is a bluegrasser,
a remark that increased my Bluegrass CD collection by 30 percent).

I wonder what to do with Blackberry Blossom? A bit tricky with two chords per bar, perhaps I would improvise more over the minor interlude and devise alternate changes for the rest. Tempo? Not above 120 bpm, probably slower.

[Bruce68]

Someone told me once "You're not good till you're fast, and you're not fast till you're good". He was however, a total a**hole, but there is some truth to what he's saying. Like anyone who does something that requires skill and dexterity, the ones that stand out are those who make it look easy. Rather than seeing someone sweating and gnashing their teeth all frantic like, I'm more impressed by a calm and confident approach. So for me, my goal is a hot hand and a cool head.

Bruce

[AlanN]

my goal is a hot hand and a cool head.
and Red Hot Women and Ice Cold Beer http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Bruce68]

I'm married Alan...don't get me in trouble:D

[AlanN]

For BB:

Starting on fret 10 on the A string, I play 10(A), 12(D), 9(D),12(G), then slide down to 11(G), 8(D), 11(D), 9(A), then slide down to 8(A), etc..., repeating this pattern until I am at root G [5(D)]. No open strings, and it sets a descending aural thing that is a nice departure when looking for something to play other than the melody. Hip and cool, I say.

And don't thank me, thank Joe Carr (who, btw, plays inventive lines suffused with swing, grass, jazz).

[Curtis]

Not many people talk about him as a mandolinist (I'm not sure why) but he sounds damn good.
In the last part of the first paragraph of the quote (you still there?) I was thinking mainly of the recommendation to rest the palm or wrist (or whatever) on the
bridge. I still assume he simply meant something else.

Do you use a pick-guard?[/quote]
The ###### mando I had at the time of the lesson had a pickguard. My Eastman now does not. But I still put my pinky down. . . shrug

EDIT: That ##### is actually cruddy but only mildly more vulgar. Definitey not the S version though. I watch my mouth!

[Curtis]

On YouTube there is also a video of Ricky Skaggs doing a sacred number , "Ready to Go", in the key of B. Why do people go wild over his stiff mandolin solo (by the way, it he appears to be planting there) when Andy Leftwich's violin solo is so much more refined? And why not slow it down a bit to allow
everyone to sound more interesting.
I've watched that video! Let's just say I immediately decided not to copy RS's technique. Looks like he's working out instead of playing music. Check out those Josh Pinkham videos for the epitome of economy of motion.;)

[JeffD]

Music is an art. #Playing mandolin is an artform. #But it can also be part sport. #For instance there are guitar, fiddle, and mandolin contests all over the country. #People win all the time for their technical ability. #Players will do gymnastics on the fingerboard. #That's half the fun.
Yikes!

I hope your funin' with us.

As soon as technical gymnastics fails to be in service of musicality and becomes its own goal, I leave.

You can hear it when it happens, and it turns me off.

I am not saying certain music doesn't require speed and technical proficiency boardering on the super human. But no tune should be played faster than it needs to be.

Let me say it again for emphasis. No tune should be played any faster than it needs to be.

[Nick Triesch]

You can have it both ways. Just listen to Chris Thile on a ton of stuff. He can play some sweet music but man, its fun to watch him fly!!! I have never heard anyone play that fast or that clean. He is the Tiger Woods of mandolin!

[AlanN]

Total agree. Even if you don't dig Chris' music, it certainly is fun to watch him dance.

[Soupy1957]

Now I wish I HADN'T cut off my pinky!!

-Soupy1957

"Merry Christmas everybody!!"