New or used?

[MikeB]

I think this topic has been addressed before, but I could not find it in over 10 pages of search results.

I recently traded a 4 year-old mandolin for a brand new one. I did this partly because I tried to sell the old one, but could not get the price I hoped for. So, I made a trade for another that I hoped I would like better. I do like the new one, but the simple fact is, I'm in a bit over my head financially.

So, my question is, if I put this brand new mandolin (with warranty card still blank, maybe 1 hour of play time) in the classifieds, should I list it as 'new' or 'used'? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

Well honestly you're not an authorized dealer (or I assume your not) so even if that warranty card is blank the warranty shouldn't follow you. It's used.

[bradeinhorn]

used! because that's what it is. is a return to the store you bought it from possible?

[MikeB]

OK, thanks for the quick response. But, doesn't the new owner get to fill out the warranty? I've had this for two days. Not trying to scam ANYbody, here, just wondering how this works.

[JEStanek]

The right answer if you put it in the Classifieds is used. Think of it just like a car... You can't sell a car you just bought off the lot through the newspaper as new, can you...

Try and return it to the store first.

Jamie

[MikeB]

Well, since it was a trade, I can't exactly return it for cash, which is what I really need from this. If I offer it for sale--used, I can't see any reason not to include the warranty card, since I haven't completed it, or made any change whatsoever to the instrument.

I guess it seems pretty pointless to toss aside this warranty just because I have had the mandolin in my possession. Why would the manufacturer care?

What if I had won the instrument (just a hypothetical, but similar situation), but didn't want to keep it?

[MikeEdgerton]

The problem is that most manufacturers don't care if you owned it 20 minutes or 20 years. They offer the instrument warranty to the original owner. Some manufacturers might have a different policy but most of the major builders of stringed instruments go with the original purchaser from an authorized dealer. A few years ago Buffalo Bros. had some Gibson mandolins that had been built for another store that went out of business. As Buffalo Bros. wasn't an authorized Gibson dealer the instruments were considered used even though they were new. Why would a manufacturer care? It's obvious that they just got rid of any liabilities for problems with the mandolin. See if the place you got it will sell it on consignment.

[bradeinhorn]

also-if you allow a warranty to run with the instrument regardless of owner, you open yourself to many issues that were not necessarily caused by the manufacturer, so there is also kind of a fairness argument.

[Tim2723]

The real question becomes, how much trouble will you get into if you're caught? Well....

[MikeB]

Thanks, Mike, I always appreciate your perspective.

The problem with a consignment is I lose money, obviously. The dealer I traded to got a very good deal, we both seem to think. Besides, how would that help with the warranty question? If I put it on consignment, it's obviously used (which I accept as its true status here) and the warranty is still gone, right? The dealer doesn't get the warranty back, does he? That makes no sense to me.

I'm more inclined to place an ad here--Used, for Sale. Leave the card in the case and let the next owner decide. Is that dishonest? If so, I will just toss the card, and sell it as 'next to new.'

What if you bought such an instrument thru the classifieds and the card was still in the case? Would you throw it away?

Please, before someone jumps down my throat on this, I am simply asking for help in deciding the right course of action. I have NOT placed any ad so far. I respect the opinions of everyone who's replied. I value my integrity as much as anyone here, I think. I could have just posted the ad, 'used' or whatever, left the card in the case and let the chips fall. But, I'm not doing that if the consensus is that it is unethical or illegal. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Tim2723]

Oh, and very often if you win an instrument you're not the original owner. #The guys running the raffle paid for it, and are usually considered the original owners. #You're in effect getting a used instrument. #One of the downsides of winning the lottery.

[Tim2723]

I sounds like you've already answered the question for yourself. If it feels wrong, it probably is.

There's nothing wrong with listing an instrument as 'just like brand new' and describing what happened. A lot of buyers don't expect much about a warranty anyway when dealing in used.

[MikeB]

If it feels wrong, it probably is.

Good answer, Tim. This is something I tell my kids all the time. Thanks for putting it in those terms. This clears it for me pretty well. Once again, the Cafe Crew come through! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd throw the warranty card in with it for no other reason than the next owner has it. I bought a 94 Flatiron in the classifieds and appreciated getting the card with it. Down the road it ads to the value of the instrument. As for winning, most instruments are donated by a dealer or a manufacturer so in that case you would be the original owner.

[northfolk]

List the mando as used-state it is in LIKE NEW condition; put the warranty card in with it and tell me what it is you are trying to sell? I see what your point is and I tend to agree; a warranty says more about the integrity of the mandolin than who owns it? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[steve V. johnson]

It's nice to get a warranty card with a used instrument. I've gotten several instruments with unmarked warranty forms, but I've never attempted to get warranty service from a manufacturer. ... Mostly because I didn't -need- it, which is lucky or the products were great, either way a good thing for me.

Also, original owner warranties support the retail dealers who make a markup from the manufacturer. It's part of the chain of trust and profit. Once an instrument sells for the second time there is no real incentive for a relationship with the original retail dealer, that chain is officially broken. Of course that owner is free to form a relationship with the retailer, but there is no basis for it via that manufacturer, except in informal terms.

Used.

stv

[Stephen Perry]

Also, original owner warranties support the retail dealers who make a markup from the manufacturer. It's part of the chain of trust and profit.
I'd have put it the "chain of contract." Warranty is a contract issue. Contract between original purchaser and supplier. No contract between secondary purchaser and supplier.

[MikeB]

Hey, Stephen, why don't dealers register the warranty for the original purchaser, if this is an important issue? You don't get a 'registration card' when you buy a new car, as someone pointed out to me today. Don't mean to be contentious here, just asking what seems like an obvious question. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Stephen Perry]

I don't know. We've done it for folks before. If they're sure they're keeping an issue. Generally the warranty doesn't need to be registered. Proof of purchase is sufficient.

I've been at one importer looking at a few warranty returns. Some notable abuses I won't go into, including misrepresentation of original ownership. I suspect claiming to be an original owner and attempting to get warranty work done when one isn't the original owner presents non-trivial legal exposure.

[Big Joe]

I can only speak for what the Gibson policy is, but most manufacture warranties are the same. #Once it is sold by an authorized dealer it becomes a used instrument. #The original sales reciept is required from an authorized dealer to obtain any warranty service. #It does NOT matter about the card. #It is only for marketing purposes when you send it in. #The ORIGINAL sales reciept is your proof of purchase (and only proof) and must be presented when warranty services is requested. #Remember, it not only must be the original sales reciept, but it must be from an authorized dealer. #If the instrument does not meet those requirements then it does not qualify for the original warranty.

Should you sell it with the implication it carries a warranty and the manufacturer does not honor the warranty (likely scenario), you could be liable for the repair or return of puchase price by implying a warranty on the mandolin. Be very careful. The best policy is to just sell it as used and don't even mention a warranty. It will likely be to your benefit in the long run.

[Salty Dog]

When I bought BRW#12 from Ben Wilcox, it was advertised on e-Bay as "slightly used", I inquired as to what that meant. #Ben replied that he sold it first to a man who was hospitalized when or soon after the mandolin arrived and his wife (anticipating hospital bills) asked if she could return it. #Ben returned their money and told me that he could not honestly advertise it as new as I would not be the first owner, even though he didn't know if it had been taken out of the case. #I could not tell that it had been played (it was as new) when I received it but I think Ben's position on this matter defines a moral and ethical standard. #Wouldn't it have been just as easy for him to advertise it as new? #We should all like what we see when we look at ourselves in the mirror - the honest answer is the right answer! If you aren't the first owner, then its used!.

[Stephen Perry]

Looking at it objectively, the owner with a sales receipt for that instrument from an authorized dealer who stocked that instrument originally gets the warranty. The entity granting the warranty wants to see the original sales receipt, although it may allow registration to substitute. What's happened between its shipment to the authorized dealer and the fellow asking for warranty work doesn't figure into it.

Scenario 1: Mandolin sits in store 2 weeks, five people play it. Dealer buffs it out, sells it. New with warranty.
Scenario 2: Mandolin gets shipped out, one person plays it 2 days, returns it. Dealer buffs it out, sells it. New with warranty.
Scenario 3: Mandolin gets taken to show by supplier, 45 people play it, picks up fingernail marks etc. Dealer buys it reduced, sells it. New demo with warranty.
Scenario 4: Dealer gives mandolin new unopened to charity for auction. Charity sells it. New without warranty.
Scenario 5: Dealer goes to Hong Kong and buys a crate of mandolins, imports them himself. Sells them in the US. New without warranty.
Scenario 6: First buyer immediately resells instrument without opening. New without warranty.

The warranty is worth something. No. 5 above is the "grey market" problem. Unsupported stuff bought cheap, often advertised as "with warranty papers" or the like, but generally not warrantied by the usual US importer. Why should it be, the importer has no return from the import and has no contractural bond.

Morals and ethics only require stating the truth. They don't require excess sacrifice or other weird behavior.

Used, as new. No warranty.

To the manufacturer, a warranty is a liability. Estimated warranty repair costs are something that are carried on the books and budgeted for. That is the main reason you see either a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser or a limited term warranty that is transferrable. While some people may keep a product they purchased new for many decades, the reality is that most of those products are re-sold within 10 years or so. People often lose their original receipts long before that.

Even if the warranty is transferrable, a product that has been purchase from an authorized retailer cannot be resold as New. It is used, or "pre-owned."

The important thing in listing any not-new product for sale is the description. Use lots of words. Tell the whole story. Whenever a "new" product is being resold shortly after purchase potential buyers wonder WHY. If you don't tell them what is really going on they will assume there must be something wrong with the product. Most will not bother asking for more information.

[Santiago]

I think Neptune nailed this one. I'm not so worried about the manufacturer, because if the mandolin is a dud, they should back up the product, but tell your story, and people will understand.

[Charles Andre]

I'd certainly contact the dealer about returning it even with your trade situation. He may still have the trade to return to you or if it's already sold you might have to accept his wholesale value. If it's that new, most dealers want their customers to be happy.

[Lee]

On a side issue here; anyone ever seen a ten year old sales receipt that's still legible? Seems they're printed with disappearing ink on paper that quickly turns to parchment.

Question to manufacturers who issue warranty cards: If I return a warranty card with a facsimile of the original sales receipt, will the registration be recognized many years down the road if I've lost the warranty receipt and original sales receipt? (Or must we all have our sales receipts professional preserved?)

[Big Joe]

Lee, I can only speak for Gibson, but YOU are responsible for keeping your records. The company does not keep those kind of records and it would be nearly impossible to do in a company that size. The cost of administration would be incredible. Simply put your reciept in a safe place like safe deposit box or baggy in the pocket of the case or http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I have seen many many people who have kept thier invoices for many more than ten years. The warranty card is intended for marketing not record keeping. Your warranty is good if you don't send in the card, but not good if you don't have the reciept. I did not design the system, just reporting how it works.

[Big Joe]

Santiago...let me correct one thing on your statement. The dealer has NO responsibility for a used instrument no matter if it is a dud or not. Once it is sold to the dealer a contract from the manufacturer and the original purchaser comes in force. As long as that contract is in force it will be handled according to the terms of the contract (warranty) but once that contract is no longer valid, the manufacturer is out of the picture, has no contract with the next purchaser and no responsibility or moral authority to inject itself into the situation. If you buy a used dud it is between you and the person you purchased it from. No one else. Most manufacturers of ANY product will not do anything for you, let alone mandolin makers. Sorry, it just does not work that way. You could even say the buidler has a contract NOT to do anything for used instruments implied in its warranty to the original owner. That is why he purchases new. It is his benefit for the deal. You have no such deal or authority when purchasing used and the manufacturer could be violating his contract with his dealers and or customers if they handle issues on non warranted products. I am not a lawyer, but I can certainly see some grounds for litigation on the issue if one were to persue that line of thought.