Price of mandolins

[swinginmandolins]

In reading posts about MAS or as someone said serial monogamy, and someone stating in another thread that at a certain point you aren't upgrading just making lateral moves. I got to thinking at what price point(s) is the break?

I know that this is subjective. It's also dependent on A or F, and I would think too that it would depend on independent builder or production shop. I would think too that builder reputation is a factor. Still I'm curious as to the opinions on this subject. Especially since my experience has only been the mandolins I've owned.

[sunburst]

There is a lot of movement possible in terms of price, and much less possible in terms of quality. In other words, you can move laterally in quality and take a big jump in price. A lot of that is because of the name and reputation of the builder.
I think there are some under-priced mandolin out there, but very few (if any) over-priced ones. The reason I think that is because there are so many good ones these days that there is no reason to pay top dollar if quality of materials, workmanship, and sound is your goal (as opposed to status, re-sale value, or "investment"). Supply and demand determine the prices of the high end mandolins, and that means they aren't over-priced. Some have turned out to be "good investments", but when it comes to simply having a top quality mandolin to play, that can be had in a huge price range.

There is no dollar amount cut off point beyond which quality is similar. I think the best strategy is to educate oneself about mandolin quality so that one is capable of evaluating quality of materials, construction, finish, playability, and sound for oneself. That way, you don't even have to know what name is on the peghead or what amount is on the price tag to know if it's a good one.

[Jonathan Peck]

Wow, tough question. I think opinions will vary greatly on this. I can remember this coming up once before with 2.5K to 3.5K being a sort of tipping point.

My personal opinion on this is that the average for an 'F' style mandolin is somewhere between 5-8K with 8 to 12.5K getting you a dream instrument from either a custom build or big or small manufacturer. There are very good instruments available for less, and the very top tier will cost more. They are all as good as your perception of good.

When it comes to custom built instruments, I think you will pay less for low numbered instruments than the equivalent higher numbered ones with the higher ones being more desireable. The lower numbered ones will benefit from a builder's price increases, but will not command the same prices of it's higher numbered brothers.

I tend to brake these up into three categories:
0-30
30-100
100+

[swinginmandolins]

Good responses and what I expected in terms of answers so far. I know that costs of material is a fairly consistent factor. Once a certain level of material is used the rest of the price would be in "extras" right? Well that and the name on the headstock as John stated. I in no way think that mandolins are overpriced. For me quality in workmanship which equates to quality of tone is all that matters. Figured wood and bindings are pretty but don't mean much if the mandolin doesn't sound good.

I guess it all comes down to what a person wants out of a mandolin and what they are willing/able to pay to get what they want. I'm coming at this from a perspective of a working musician who isn't able to spend a ton of money. That said I'm really happy with the mandolin I have, enough so I'm in process of getting another from the same builder. I just know that curiosity will get this cat, and I hate to give in only to find out I made a mistake.

[Alex Fields]

I think up until the 8-10k range you can see a fairly steady improvement. Granted that the difference between a 2k mando and a 5k is way bigger than between a 5k and a 10k but I think there's still a pretty clear improvement. It's not as clear to me that jumping from the better 10k builders (Daley, Heiden, etc) to the really really big names like Gilchrist is that much of an improvement. I've played several Gils and they seemed about as good overall as the Daleys I've played (at least the varnish Daleys). The worst of the Gils seemed about as good as the worst of the Daleys, the best of the Gils seemed about as good as the best of the Daleys. So I don't know, but I suspect the jump from 10k to 25k is more of a jump in builder rep than in quality. I mean lots of top players are using Daleys, Heidens, etc who could be using Gils if they wanted to so I think I'm in good company with this opinion. It's also notable that the 10k builders still take custom orders, whereas at least Gilchrist does not, I don't know about Monte or Dude.

[swinginmandolins]

At 8-10K wouldn't you just be paying for the name on the headstock or is that just the price point where you are sure to get a great mandolin? Like I said I don't know as I only have experience with the few I've owned and have owned nothing over the 2.5-3K range.

[sunburst]

Speaking strictly about F5 style mandolins, (I do set up/maintenance/repairs on many brands) I think you can find mandolins of similar quality from under $5000 to over $20,000. If you bring A-styles into the discussion, the range probably starts under $3000.
Those are interspersed with mandolins of lesser quality. I don't see a direct correlation between price and quality.

[swinginmandolins]

John,
If there is no correlation between price and quality, would you say that a person just has to find ways to try different mandolins to find the best in their price range?

[Kevin Briggs]

John,

You make a good point. We are so driven by what we "think" is supposed to be good. It's like any marketing, really. Even if we think we are beyond it, it's hard to live that way. What's better, a Dan Voight A style for $1,800, or a Monteleone F style for $25,000? Price says the Monte. Does the experience say the same thing? I don't know.

I will say that while very impressed, I was not convinced that the Gil at the Elderly booth at IBMA was so good it justified a price tag of $22,000. It was very, very nice, of course. That price is just huge. I felt the same way about the other mandolins I played for that price.

[JeffD]

I think there is another factor, here, which is wether or not you can appreciate the difference. It took me a while to hear and feel the difference between high end mandolins. There is no point in paying extra for a difference you cannot perceive, but that doesn't mean there is no difference.

I tend to agree that mandolins are not in general overpriced, but a particular mandolin may be over priced for a given person, based on individual priorities, tastes, and discernment.

[swinginmandolins]

I can hear differences in mandolins even in soundclips. I drool over Monte's but how much of that is just the name on the headstock making it appealing? Listening to the Monte GA and Givens on the same site, the Givens sounds just as good if not better at around $3.5(A style). Names don't mean that much to me, as I may never be able to afford them. What is interesting and appealing to me is having/finding the best mandolin for my music. I guess the hard part is filtering through the "flavors of the month" and hype to find who are the builders putting out quality tone mandolins in a given price range. Which boils down to personal opinions, when your greatest filter is this site.

[woodnickle]

I would like to say that price is not the answer. In my experience there are too many reasons that you will not see ahead of time,such as neck profile,fret size,strings,plectrum,projection,local volume,etc... and as your playing improves you can make the less expensive mandolin sound very good. Get someone else to play it too.
Overall it must feel good in your hands.
I have heard good players play a $1,500.00 flatiron fest(Gibson)and make it sound so good you want it!
But you may not get that sound out of it because of your limitations. Also buy used! There are a lot of great undiscovered mandolins out there. There are a lot of people with money to feed their MAS yet they tend not to be much on playing the instrument.

[swinginmandolins]

I've actually gone down in dollar value in my trades, but up in sound quality. I know that some of that is just plain practice. I listen to my recordings from a couple of years ago and hear the potential that could have been had in mandolins past if I would have kept them and just worked with what I had. I have made bad decisions in chasing the next mandolin. Maybe I should just stop wondering what if I had X and just learn to use what I have the best I can. Still I appreciate the opinion and insight from all.

[jaco]

I sold my Flatiron about 2 1/2 years ago to upgrade to a custom builder's number 12. He was recommednded by Josh Pinkham and I played Josh's mando as well as his Dad's and was very impressed. After having #12 two years I finally got to compare it to some bigger name mandolin builders in ranges up to the $12,000 range. I am certainly biased up to a point but mine compared very favorably to the best in this range. I couldn't find anything close in volume and tone. Just my 2 cents.

[Jonathan Peck]

One way to see if a mandolin is the real deal is to play a high break up the neck. If the mandolin doesn't have the same power, volume, tone and ease of play as it does with a low break in first position, this could be a big differentiator between a good mandolin and a great mandolin. This for me is where the rubber meets the road.

[swinginmandolins]

I stated earlier that I had only played up to $2.5-3K, but I remembered that I played a student of mines mandolin, that is a highly regarded builder in the $6K range and I was unimpressed with it, and it was set up well, but maybe not played as much as it could have been. That experience made me think harder about looking for a mandolin in certain price range thinking it would be better. Too many factors I guess to make it an easy proposition.

[swinginmandolins]

[/QUOTE]One way to see if a mandolin is the real deal is to play a high break up the neck. If the mandolin doesn't have the same power, volume, tone and ease of play as it does with a low break in first position, this could be a big differentiator between a good mandolin and a great mandolin. This for me is where the rubber meets the road.

That is one of the main reasons I have the mandolin I have now. I play chord solos most of the time so I'm up the fretboard alot and this mandolin still sings up there. Sometimes I think it has more power there than in open position. Good balance though.

[swinginmandolins]

Ok so quality can't be quantified in price. What other characteristics after quality of fit and finish, put a mandolin in the high end?

[jasona]

1) Determine your budget.
2) Play everything in your budget.
2a) Have buddy play everything for you and stand in front 15' or so.
3) Pick what sounds best to you.
4) Buy it.
5) Learn how to play it.
6) Look at it.

[Jonathan Peck]

Hey Terry,

I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, but I just listened to a couple of tunes on your webpage and the Phoenix neoclassical or one of their other models sounds like it could be a good fit for you. Just a thought.

[swinginmandolins]

If playing beforehand is a requirement I either will never switch mandolins again, spend my mandolin budget on shipping and insurance, or spend my mandolin budget on gas and motel rooms driving to where the good mandolins are.

[swinginmandolins]

Jonathan,
Yeah one of the Phoenixes are one of the mandolins I wonder about. With their price increase they went out of my budget, as they seldom come up used.

I'm more just trying to gain experience through all of you as to what sets mandolins apart.

[otterly2k]

Terry - 2 thoughts.
one- is there something in particular that your current mando is lacking or that you're looking for in another one? I don't think price category alone is the index...

two - Phoenixes do come up from time to time used, and they are WELL worth looking for, waiting for, etc. They have tremendous tone, playability is superb, they are very light and responsive and Rolfe backs up his product with excellent service. I agree with Jonathan that they'd suit your style well (nice work, btw!) - they are very versatile. NFI... but I fell in love with the sound and feel of the Phoenix many years before I could afford one, and am lucky to have had the chance to snatch up a used one this past summer.

That's not to say that there aren't other mandolins that would also suit your needs and style... and your Holst sounds pretty great to me too.

[swinginmandolins]

Thanks Karen. I have actually email Rolfe and talked to him about his mandos. I haven't experienced one yet, and now wonder if it would really be a step up from the Holst.

The Holst isn't lacking anything I can specifically point out. It's more of a "is there something better" within my range, that would help me create my music.


More than a brand comparison I was hoping to at least get close to a after X price you are moving laterally, but see that can't be said, as there are good and bad in every price range. I still wonder what the opinions are on this, but also value any insight on what qualities make one mandolin stand out over another. I would guess again this is personal and objective.

[Alex Fields]

At 8-10K wouldn't you just be paying for the name on the headstock or is that just the price point where you are sure to get a great mandolin?

Well, neither, really. You can pay a lot less than 10K and be sure to get a great mandolin. But if you pay 10K you can get an even better mandolin. I really do not think that you are just paying for a name at 8-10k...like I said I think there is a real difference in quality (usually) between a mandolin in that price range and one a few thousand. You will find exceptions both ways, 10k mandolins that aren't worth that and 5k mandolins that are worth more, but in general terms I think you're still getting more for your money up until that point (although with diminishing returns, after a few thousand each additional thousand you spend begins to make a lot less difference). I do suspect that leaping from a top 10k maker to a 25k maker is basically a leap in name and not quality though.


I can hear differences in mandolins even in soundclips.

You can, but a lot of that may be the person playing it or the strings or pick or whatever and not the mandolin. Also you can tell WAY more of a difference when you actually play a mandolin than just by listening to a recording. In some sense the difference between a great instrument and a really great one is a difference for the player's ears and will go unnoticed by most everyone else.


I think there is another factor, here, which is wether or not you can appreciate the difference. It took me a while to hear and feel the difference between high end mandolins. There is no point in paying extra for a difference you cannot perceive, but that doesn't mean there is no difference.

That is definitely true. I think anyone who isn't completely tone deaf can tell the difference in quality between a cheapo Morgan Monroe mandolin and a Gilchrist, but when you're talking about two mandolins that both cost thousands of dollars it takes a trained ear. Haha, like I can tell the difference between a ten dollar bottle of wine and a fifty dollar bottle, but not between a fifty dollar bottle and a five hundred...but I can tell the difference between a nice mandolin and a really nice one.

Obviously you can't tell how good a mandolin is just by what it costs, there isn't always a strong correlation between cost and quality, but I firmly believe if you have ten grand to spend you can get a better instrument than if you only have half that much to spend.

[swinginmandolins]

So you are saying the qualities that justify the $10K dependent on the person buying the mandolin?
If $10K is what I have to spend to get a great mandolin, then I would say I hope that mine is great, or one close to the same price range, otherwise it's probably not going to happen for me.

[Alex Fields]

No, what I meant is the differences are subtle enough that they might not come through on a recording or through a PA or something like that, or might not be noticeable to an ear that isn't highly trained. But the person playing the instrument can tell. And maybe it does come through on really high quality recordings if you know what to listen for.

And like I said you can get a great mandolin for a lot less than that, just that for that price you can probably get one that's slightly greater. I imagine the price difference would not be worth unless you are either a really really serious musician or just have enough money that it's not a big deal for you. The latter definitely doesn't apply to me but the former does. I don't regret paying the extra money.

[swinginmandolins]

I would spend more on a mandolin if I could. As is it my mandolin is worth more than either car my wife and I have.
I would think that possibly those slight difference are out of reach then for me. Should have stuck with the "real job". Nah I like making music.

[twist_of_nate]

Should have stuck with the "real job".

That's what I've been wondering since I started reading up on the 'higher end' mandolins and through all these threads (this is a great website)...how does a person manage to swing a $(three-or-four digit) instrument working a 'normal' job?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[sunburst]

...how does a person manage to swing a $(three-or-four digit) instrument working a 'normal' job?
Priorities.

I don't watch TV (no cable), my car is 13 years old, no bass boat, most of my cloths come from the thrift store, that sort of thing.
I'm actually a banjo player, my banjo is worth more than anything else I own, and I don't even have a 'normal' job. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jonathan Peck]

One way you can look at it is that your mandolin isn't going to be in a land fill in fifteen years...if you buy well, you might even make a few dollars after having the use of it for years. So, basically you can use a good mandolin for as long as you like for free. You're not spending money, you're diverting it to something useful and then converting it back into money somewhere down the road. Heck, If you were fortunate or lucky enough to buy a loar thirty years ago, you'd of not only had the use of a pretty darn good mandolin for thirty years, you could sell it now for alot more than you originally paid for it.

[JeffD]

...how does a person manage to swing a $(three-or-four digit) instrument working a 'normal' job?
Priorities.
There is more wisdom there than in most postings.

I know folks who have not quite as good as a normal job, but through priorities, discipline and patience have managed to achieve a pretty amazing life. One couple that comes to mind live all summer on their big, (I mean big) sail boat, on a combined salary that would make a rural public school first year teacher feel wealthy.

[swinginmandolins]

I understand priorities. I'm funding my second Holst by cutting out sodas, and not purchasing any cds or instructional books for a year now. It adds up pretty quick. I would take a loan for an instrument, but the wife's priorities are different than mine.

My van is 12 years old, and my mandolin is the most expensive thing I own. If I was able to spend 10K on and instrument it would be worth more than all my things combined.
Getting to do what you love...priceless

[Alex Fields]

The only way I'm able to afford that is because I'm a studen with three sources of scholarship/financial aid so I end up getting about 8k a year cash back from the school. Some of that goes to books, most goes to food and gas, but the remainder I've saved and, along with some money (about five grand) that was saved to help pay my college tuition, which isn't needed for that purpose since scholarships cover my tuition, it's enough for a custom Daley. So basically I'm in a lucky position but it will only last a couple of more years until I graduate and then I will be in trouble haha. At least I'll be in trouble with a couple of really nice instruments (the other being an amazing violin I've owned since I was in my early teens).

EDIT: Prioritizing has been important for me too. I do all my clothes shopping at thrift stores, I eat really cheap (usually at home, or with my mom, or a couple of $1 bean burritos from taco bell or something), I buy all my books used, very rarely go to movies or anything, never go to parties, etc. When you're on a strict budget and every few extra dollars you spend on a meal is a book or a CD or new strings you can't buy, you think differently.