solo players

[keymandoguy]

I try to practice at least 1/2 hr evey day and go to jams as often as possible One is every Tuesday night . Never know how many will show up. about a month ago we had a mandolin player show up that was really good playing solo but we just couldnt play with him. His rythym was allways off with the rest of us .he was either allways one step behind or one in front Any one else experienced players like this? Of course we didnt say anything because its an open jam Maybe he will get better ?

[doanepoole]

I have come across two VERY good pickers I can think of who have trouble with rhythm and lead in one noticeable way. When they screw something up, they start over at the chord or phrase. I kind of figured it came from playing alone alot, and when they hit a bump, instead of plugging along, they just started over. Obviously, this creates a stutter between their rhythm and the group rhythm. Probably nothing that experience with other pickers wouldn't hammer out.

[John Flynn]

I think it comes down to multiple factors: Experience playing with others, desire to really sound good with a group and natural talent for ensemble work. If he realizes he is not fitting in and backs off when that happens, he has potential for working it out. If he just blithely "rocks on" out of step with the group, it is possible no amount of experience will help. I have played with a few people who were great solo, but who did not have a clue about group play. I won't jam with those folks any more, ever. On the other hand, I know a guy who is a great finger-style blues player and singer, I mean really good. But he has always played solo, so he is having trouble working in with OT and BG jams. But he knows when he is messing up and he cares that he is messing up. I think he will improve very quickly with experience.

[psann]

Can I ever relate to this topic. I play alone a lot with little opportunity to play with others. Consequently, my backup ability is so poor I hesitate to join a jam when the opportunity does arise. Hard to get the experience to get over the hurdle. I have been working with Ron Green's back up practice Cd . A real catch 22

Pat

[sailaway]

well, is it not possible to kindly take aside the 'good' solo player, and kindly suggest some helps to get the guy to play in sync with every one else ? It is possible that this person does not know they a are out of time ( why would any one deliberately play out of time ?!?!) or does n't know that you simply can't stop the whole song when you make a mistake, just recover and keep going, Someone ought to quietly and kindly take this person aside , or write him/her an anonymous letter or something -- but don't bury the guy and have him forever lose the joy of playing in jams without one last attempt at CPR. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[rhetoric]

So what are the good instructional CD's to "play along" with. I'd like a gazillion CD set that had nothing but back-ups and leads of standards. I've noticed that I get the fiddle tunes down (up to 6 now -- I'm so proud) but when I play with others, hearing the accompanyment throws me off. And there's too much talk in the instructional CDs.

[pathfinder]

Pete Wernick has a great video (VHS and DVD) entitled BLUEGRASS JAMMING; A GUIDE FOR NEWCOMERS AND CLOSET PICKERS. #It features well-known pickers doing solos on each instrument (banjo, guitar, mandolin, dobro and upright bass), and they do 15-20 standard BG numbers and discuss timing, solos, intros, endings, turnarounds, 'taters', etc).

It's available from Homespun Tapes at the following link:

www.homespuntapes.com/prodpg.asp?prodID=807&prodType=

I don't have any financial interest here (wish I did!) but it sounds like what some of these promising young players really need. #FWIW.

[pathfinder]

Woops! Forgot to include the fiddle in my last post (Michael Kang from the String Cheese Incident). He's on there too. Sorry about that (too early in the morning for me!) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Bluegrasstjej]

I think the best thing would be to tell him, in a nice way, that it's better to keep going instead of starting over again, if he screws something up, to not interrupt the rest of the players.
If he's always behind or ahead of the rest, it's usually because of lack of experience of playing with others. Then a nice option could be to simply offer to play with him, outside the jams, just one or two players with him, so that he gets used to playing with others. Instead of accusing him for playing out of time, tell him things like "if you do this and that, it will sound better". (for example listening to the bass and always hold on to the chords) If he's that good, he probably knows how the whole thing works with chords and timing.

[RobP]

Theres always the good ole cassette recorder to use for accompaniment. If you play guitar too, record the backup and then play along. If not, play the chords with the mandolin. The important part is to be able to keep up with the correct rhythm. I have trouble singing lead while keeping up the offbeat chop (I can sing and play guitar just fine), so I usually record the guitar part of the song and keep playing through it until I get it smooth.

Cheers,

Rob

[Bluegrasstjej]

Yeah, that's good. I play along with CDs or midi back-up tracks and that's great too.

[jamesrenz]

If the player you mention is "really good at playing solo," but you "just can't play with him," because he is always "one step ahead or behind," do you know whether he is actually dropping or adding beats during his solo? Or is his timing off in some other way, e.g., is he counting the beats correctly but speeding up or slowing down? I have known a few players who play alone so often that they'll inadvertently cut off a beat, or sometimes extend a beat. Others may end up slowing down, and get out of synch, because they can't keep up with the pace of the group. Sometimes, too, I'll hear someone who doesn't know how to come in at the right instant and just may be a little early or late; once everyone adjusts to that player (and it is very interesting to hear the rhythmic "bump" when a group tries to make such adjustment en masse -- or the rhythmic "muddle," when each tries to make it in his own good time!), it is smooth sailing -- until his/her turn to solo comes around again.

It would be easier to criticize, or "discuss" the problem with this rhythmic outlaw if you can figure out what exactly the problem is. Maybe he just needs to play with a rhythm player, or rhythm track in order to correct the problem. Maybe he isn't counting out the beats carefully enough when he is learning a tune or song, and so rhythmic framework is off right from the beginning; or maybe he jumping in too fast, or not fast enough, etc. Maybe he just needs to play rhythm a while and not solo at all, and hum the melody until he understands better how it fits into the rhythm.

In any event, it would be easier to help him straighten out the problem if you can identify exactly what is going wrong. There are very few players who, if they really want to "get it right," won't accept helpful advice. And, in the end, most such rhythmic problems are correctable.

[TonyP.]

James you really hit the nail on the head. Even before I could play I got exposed to the "soloist" or "singer songwriter" syndrome. Everybody I grew up with were musicians and every time they'd try a new person to jam with or an new band member this came up. Some of them had such big heads you couldn't talk to them so they were history. The ones you could talk to, if you were real precise and balanced (not all just criticism) could mend their ways. It's like has already been pointed out, some start over when they mess up, some have "made up" their songs and put changes where ever and never develop proper structure so don't have a feeling for chord changes. All this stuff makes me shy from them but the worst is the micro rhythm changes, or loping. I can't deal with it. We have a guy I've been playing with for years and I love him to death but he lopes when he gets excited. When he's practising to cd's, or at our practises it's almost unnoticeable but get him a little anxious and you have the potential for a mess. Through the years we've gotten pretty good at helping each other understand our weaknesses and it has helped us both.

[Michael H Geimer]

I'm dubious about the success of rehabilitation efforts. IMHO - if a player has been doing this for long enough to be called "a good soloist", or a "singer-songwriter", then they've been playing long enough to have heard about the importance of metronomes ... and have decided they don't need to do that. Someone who's ignored timing and rhyhym drills in favor of licks or sensative rubato phrasing made that choice long ago.

All the advice above re: DVDs etc. is widely pubilcized, so ignorance is just not an excuse. Note all the self-motivated people above asking for ways to help themselves improve. They will likely improve, and those people who don't embrace the drills and practice routines will not improve. Advice from a jam partner probably won't change anyone's natural work ethic.

Only the relatively new players I've talked to about these sorts of issues have opened themselves up to examining their behaviour and possibly correcting for it.

The "good" players tend to get defensive, or simply insist that they can't do it, or don't have to do it. One guy with this same problem of dropping beats#- a really "good singer" in terms of pitch and timbre - told us as a group that he was the singer, and that good backup musicans should always follow the singer no matter what ... hmmmm ... sorta true, but ... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Personally I don't engage myself much in those sort of discussions anymore as musicans are a sensitive breed, and I'm tired by being "the bad guy". Leave it to the teachers, and bandmates make lousy teachers.

Overall, there is great advice above about resources and methods to help improve the skill of group performance, but the social/politcal side of it is dangerous water - IMHO.

- Benig

[ngzcaz]

This is interesting. I have a person that
occasionally plays along with a fiddle. He often
complains that people " just cant follow a fiddle "
I never understood that. If he's in time and so is
everyone else, whats the problem ?
It seems to me that he speeds up and slows down
( possibly true with other instruments as well )
according to how well he plays a particular song
and everyone else is supposed to follow along. Is
that considered " following a fiddle " ? If thats
true then how could more than one person play
together if each plays at his own speed ? How
about a bass to keep the time ?


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