View Full Version : Improvised e-cittern
Well I was going to get to sleep at a semi-reasonable hour last night. But as I sat down on the bed, I spotted my #3 electric guitar which I hadn't played in a while, with a coat of dust and needing fresh strings. I had a flash of inspiration when I recalled emando players using a standard electric guitar strings but throwing away the G string, and so I restrung the guitar with only 5 strings.
Some of the the strings don't sit all the way down in the nut slots and the intonation is pretty bad, but I've played lousy instruments before and I can cope. I tried a few tunings on it and had a fair amount of fun, and ended up playing well past dawn.
I spent most of my time in DAEBE, a fourth below the GDAEA that Dan B. reported using on his 10-string. I'd also like to work some more with DAEAE and DGDAE. I wouldn't want to go higher overall with the 25 1/2" scale.
So, suggestions for things to try, chords to learn, or tunes to work on? I don't know any cittern or bouzouki players and I'm pretty sure that I've never seen one played in person. I've just been really curious after seeing the discussions here. And it should be clear from my exposition that I was motivated by free and instant gratification, so ordering a book and waiting for it to arrive might be a sub-optimal suggestion. But any advice is much appreciated.
(Edited to correct cut-and-paste error regarding Dan B.'s tuning.)
groveland
Oct-22-2007, 6:44am
Chords to learn?
I tune CGDAE. #The fifths symmetry makes the most sense for chord building if you don't need to rely on open string tunings. #There are tons of efficiencies that come from extending the standard mando tuning down another fifth.
For example, you can find typical mando 4-string chord shapes right next to each other on the neck, and combine them out to 5-string if desired. Here we're doing it with the first and third inversions of the 4465 shape (B7) to get the 3 and 7 on the bottom, but you can find these neighboring shape relationships in all cases, and it's important to learn them all.
http://www.grovelandsoftwarelabs.com/images/citternchordinversionlesson.jpg
Notice how the two shapes are adjacent in two places on the neck.
This can be done with all chord shapes. #The root and second inversions will be found adjacent, and the first and third will be found adjacent in a similar way. #(Note: The shapes I'm referring to are explained in detail at the link in the sig line below.)
And congrats on the e-cittern - It's the instrument of the future. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I assume you knew that Schecter used to make an electric 'cittern' they called a CelloBlaster?
Thanks for the suggestions, and the nifty diagrams too! They're really cool.
I was going to try some other tunings this evening, but I started out first by moving all the strings one notch toward the bass side of the fretboard. Much better! I had guessed that it would be less confusing if I had the five strings toward on the treble side and maybe that was true, but putting them on the other side got rid of the nut-slot problem, so the action is a whole lot better now. The intonation is much improved too, since the three wound strings are back in their original positions, and the two plain strings are in positions that had plain strings originally.
After retuning back to DAEBE, I noodled around looking for chords to use for comping standards, and found usable maj7, min7, and dominant 7 chords pretty quickly. I checked your mandolin chord-building page afterward (excellent by the way!) and saw that you give the same basic forms for 4-string mandolins and octaves, such as 2-2-4-4 for Amaj7, 2-2-3-3 for Amin7, and 2-2-4-3 for A7.
I often use four strings for chording on guitar, so that was pretty good already, but I also worked with doubling the 3rd or flat 3rd on the treble string, and that sounded pretty good. E.g.: 2-2-4-4-4 for Emaj7, 2-2-3-3-3 for Emin7, and 2-2-4-3-4 for E7--that's in my tuning with the low D.
Having the tighter 4th interval between the two highest-pitched strings seems good. That's usually where I want the tighter spaces in the chords. There are some good maj9, min9, and 9th chords by barring the whole thing: 2-2-4-4-2, 2-2-3-3-2, and 2-2-4-3-2 respectively. 2-2-4-2-4 for E6, 2-2-4-2-2 for E6add9, etc.
There's also barred power chord with no 3rd that's fun and might be useful: 5-5-3-3-3 for G, etc. And a cool open D: 0-0-2-3-2, fretted like a guitar except again the 3rd is doubled, and sliding those two fingers around is very fun.
With roots on the A string, I found D as either x-5-5-3-2 or x-5-5-7-5 (v sweet), Dmaj7 as x-5-5-7-9 or x-5-5-2-2 (both easier in higher positions), Dmin7 as x-5-5-6-8 or x-5-5-1-1 (latter only possible in higher positions!), D7 as x-5-5-7-8, and surprisingly usable D13 as x-5-8-7-7 and Dsus13 as x-5-8-8-7. Some nice cadences to Gmaj7 using those...
Dunno if anyone's gonna bother plowing through all of that, but I guess it's good to type it in and have it safe here. I could easily forget. I think I'm going to try to work up a common tune with those, something like "Misty" or "The Way You Look Tonight," and then once I have that I can try different tunings and see whether they're better or worse. This is pretty fun already.
And yeah, right, instrument of the future... And we're pioneering it... You can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs, as the old saying goes.
I did see a link a while back that someone posted to the CelloBlaster. Gotta love it, and I guess stranger things have made it. I'll bet it's pretty burly sounding with that A on the bottom with the .072 string. It seems like the "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" school of market research, but what they lost on the experiment probably would have just about paid for professional consultants to do surveys and focus groups and then tell them what a bad idea it was. This way at least a few of the instruments got out, and perhaps into the hands of the few players who could never be musically fulfilled without them. :-)
groveland
Oct-23-2007, 6:17am
Dunno if anyone's gonna bother plowing through all of that
I plowed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It's great to see what you're doing. For me, I've gotta have the high E (your DAEBE) tuned to an F#, otherwise I short out! In most cases I don't find a disadvantage - Like the Ema7 is 22442, and the Em7 is 22331 (maybe not for everyone), and 22432 for E7. The ma9, mi9, and 9 chords - For an Fma9 I would do 33551, Fmi9 would be 33441, and 9 would be 33541. #I love tight voicings, too, but I usually keep a sports physician on call. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
jmcgann
Oct-23-2007, 7:15am
Excellent, Smithers! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thanks to both of you for the comments and the plowing!
I didn't have a lot of time to spend with it last night, just tinkered a little. The tunings will be interesting, and I wouldn't be surprised if different ones work better for different songs. I see how many chords seem to work equally well either way, such as 2-2-4-4-4 for Emaj7 in DAEBE vs 2-2-4-4-2 in DEABF#. Not much difference there.
It might boil down to the availability of certain chords and voicings when needed, I really love the sound of that x-5-5-2-2 Dmaj7 and I don't think it'd work (without using an open string at least) with an F# on top. I think I'd also have trouble actually playing those two-sided 9th and maj9 chords. Then again, I'm not having much success yet finding diminished triads to work with in DAEBE, and I'm hurting pretty bad without a good 7-flat-9 chord.
Btw, I happened to find a picture of the axe that I've been using, a pawnshop-prize Carvin. Mine's just like the this except that mine has black pickups and mounting rings, and that I replaced the dead bridge pickup with a Gibson '57 Classic.
So who else has a whammy bar on their cittern?
groveland
Oct-24-2007, 5:03am
So who else has a whammy bar on their cittern?
I thought you'd never ask! See here... (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=16;t=40200)
That Carvin is a great find.
Yes, I think I saw your headless Tele on my first scan of the CBOM topics but didn't recall that it was whammied, or for that matter that it was yours. I'm pretty sure I found CelloBlaster link in that thread too. Nice work! The routing for the bridge is particularly cool. Have you gotten anywhere with the issue of the low string gauges?
Sorry for the slow follow-up, btw. I ran out of gas after picking all night a couple of times last week and I'm catching up now. I'm hoping to getting back to playing more with my Carvin in the next couple of days.
groveland
Oct-29-2007, 2:26pm
Have you gotten anywhere with the issue of the low string gauges?
Nope. Same as they were. It would be nice to get down to 5 strings. I am considering putting a piece of slotted brass (or other? Copper?) at the 'head' to accept 5 strings, and spacing the bridge saddles with brass (or other?) so there would be 5 saddles. The Steinberger neck is 1 5/8", so string spacing may not be within acceptable tolerances.
groveland
Nov-11-2007, 7:42pm
The tunings will be interesting, and I wouldn't be surprised if different ones work better for different songs.
I'm sold on fifths.
One of the first things I did to get going on fifths-tuned instruments was to find the intervals of the major scale (w-w-h-w-w-w-h) and see how the relationships laid out on the neck. #The beauty of the consistent fifths (as opposed to standard guitar tuning) is in the symmetries you find on the instrument. #The major scale, for example, produces a nice compact symmetry that makes complete navigation of the instrument a snap:
<span style='font-family:courier'>===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|| C
===|===|===|===|=0=|===|=0=|===|=0=|=0=|===|=<span style='color:gray'>0</span>=|| G
===|===|===|=0=|=0=|===|=<span style='color:orange'>0</span>=|===|=0=|=0=|===|===|| D
===|=<span style='color:gray'>0</span>=|===|=0=|=0=|===|=0=|===|=0=|===|===|===|| A
===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|===|| E</span>
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(<- Body -- Nut ->)</span>
The symmetry is actually discovered on the second degree of the major scale (I show it in <span style='color:orange'>orange</span> above) which is the tonic of the dorian mode (the ii of the major scale). #I'll call this the pivot. #This yields the dorian intervals going up the scale from the pivot, w-h-w-w-w-h-w, and the same pattern going down from the pivot, w-h-w-w-w-h-w. #It really makes navigation on the instrument a breeze. #I'm not talking about putting it on autopilot and playing junk - I'm saying the predictability eliminates a lot of work. #(symmetry=simplicity, lack of symmetry=complexity, perceptual economy...?)
The symmetries are even more easily recognized on citterns with the extra course than the four-course instruments - It's easier to see how these things play out on the five courses. #Six strings really brings it out, so you may want to try tuning that guitar in fifths... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Another advantage to fifths tuning is the natural "tetrachordal" layout. #You can easily do an octave scale on two strings and six or seven frets.
Another advantage to fifths tuning is how very well it reflects II-V changes. Similar to guitar, changing keys a fourth or fifth is as easy as shifting over a string, only without the odd G/B tuning. Notice in the graphic below we are traveling in fourths, cycling around the neck, using our symmetry from above. #I have also omitted the top and bottom notes of the blocks to visually separate them a little better, and colored them in red and blue so you can easily see them modulate:
http://www.grovelandsoftwarelabs.com/images/jazzcitternlesson1.gif
So here's the bottom line - I was playing my 335 yesterday, thinking of letting it go. #So as I'm playing this thing (after a long time away from it), I took note that a player trying to improvise could quickly become pattern-oriented because you have to deal with that goofy speed-bump standard guitar tuning. #There are tunings for every occasion and sound, that's for sure, but the symmetry of fifths tuning gives this old guy less things to remember!
PS. Melodic minor (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=41487;hl=modes;st=2) is also extremely navigable in a very symmetrical way.
Lemme think about this and get back to you. It looks really interesting, but the coffee hasn't kicked in yet so I'm not quite taking it all in.
groveland
Nov-16-2007, 7:09am
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif
I dug up the melodic minor symmetries on this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=41487;hl=modes;st=2). It's depicted on 4 strings, but it's just as useful on 5.
http://www.grovelandsoftwarelabs.com/images/melodicminor_ez.gif